422 réponses à ce sujet

[wantedman dan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Refusers remind me of Maelon for some reason.

Mordin: "Whole team agreed, project was necessary!"

The way I see it, my orders were to activate the Crucible to stop the Reapers. I'm not going to break the most important order I've ever received.

 

People have conducted themselves in horrible, horrible ways under the guise of "I was just following orders."

[LiarasShield]

The Citadel was made by the reapers the crucible can not operate without the catalyst the one that controls the reapers so infact it is still the reapers choices because he is still required to make the crucible function at all

[crimzontearz]

AlanC9 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
Bioware made it a non ending. Choosing it does not unlock the game completion achievement. It is just their personal way to give us the middle finger. Choosing refuse is not a moral stand, not buying their future games is

I agree that there should have been an achievement, but not the same one they give for endings where Shepard wins. They should have added an "Epic Fail" achievement; could any failure be more epic than getting the whole galaxy exterminated?

Of course, you'd be saying that was even more of a middle finger.

honestly, I do not care anymore. Other developers have demonstrated they GET how to pull off a good bittersweet ending making you feel rewarded without giving people crap on a silver spoon, space magic or the middle finger because ART. ((like halo 4's ending))

Bioware is now the kind of company I will only by used games of and only after THROUGH peer reviews

[babachewie]

LiarasShield wrote...

The Citadel was made by the reapers the crucible can not operate without the catalyst the one controls the reapers so infact it is still the reapers choices because he is still required to make the crucible function at all

Its still not its choices for christ sake. Read the wikis or play the game and pay attention. Jesus. Seriously you people should be banned from speaking on here. I require a finger to pull the trigger of a gun. My finger didnt make the decision and cannot without my consent. The choices have nothing to do with the catalyst. It didnt come up with them, it didnt create them. Why would it come up with a way to destroy itself or have others control it? Think! It's just the reaper intelligence. Thats it. it just lives there. The citadel is the central hub of the mass relay network. it needs the mass effect field the Citadel provides to be powered. It's the only then that can make it work. If you dont get that then you shouldn't play these games anymore, cause they'll keep going over your head.  

[The Twilight God]

Davik Kang wrote...

I went against refuse for the same reasons you mentioned, though I think it can be ratioanlised.  I seriously disagree with the rationale but that doesn't mean it's objectively wrong.  Also I said it was arguably instinctive for players to initially lean towards refuse, and yes that is childish, but children are more instinctive creatures having not had instincts tempered by social norms.  Nonetheless, I do consider Refuse to be the choice of the righteous college student, and a deeply selfish act.

I think it's beyond selfish. It makes you just as callous about life as the Reapers. Heck, even a Reaper would do the math and do what's needed to ensure maximum survivors. Refuse is the most heinus crime committed by an organic in known galactic history.

Refuse is the ultimate betrayal. Unlike Control and Synthesis where Shepard is deceived into fulfilling their will. Shepard is so broken that he knowingly condemns his allies to destruction and the Reapers have him convinced it is his idea. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal.

Davik Kang wrote...

I think the wiki entry says that removal of the greybox carries a risk of brain damage.  To me that means that greybox failure could kill her, but also implies that it might not.  The fact that it doesn't necessarily have serious implications means that it won't necessarily lead to her death.  For all we know it could be the removal process that actually causes the damage, which would actually lend credence to the possibility that its failure won't kill her.  About Shepard's spine, I don't actually know what the spinal augmentations on Shepard do.  Are they demonstrably so life-vital that their failure or destruction would kill Shepard?  And the thing about Quarian food and medical supplies depends on how long it would take to repair the damage.

From what I know about severed vertebrae a C4 break is fatal. I checked the codex. As far as Kasumi, is concerned a graybox simply shutting down may not kill her. What he life would be like afterwards is purely speculation. The Quarians would all get sick at the same time. I don't think an epidemic is avoidable. However, that's not what destory is show to do. It doesn;t just shut stuff down. It vaporizes. Now, I think the reaction to the husk and Reapers demonstrates that it only effects synthesized material, but since we're tossing everything in and pretended the Kid told the truth everything get vaporized.

As I said before (not sure if it was to you or not as I was posting alot yesterday), I agree with you to an extent. However, I am speaking within the context of the notion that the geth are all wiped out. The only thing stated is that "others will be destroyed", "technology you rely on" will be effected and all "technology you rely on" will be targeted. If we are going to say this means that the Geth vaporized, then it must also infer that all ship parts get vaporized, all guns, datapads, grayboxes, cybernetics, etc. Forget the line about nothing being lost that hasn't already been lost and repairs being easy. No, that would mean the Geth are OK. We must ignore this like those who make a conscious decison to insist the Geth die ignore this. Since the Geth are flat out killed and unrepairable, everything else is flat out killed or blown up too. The repair tools, space suits, everything. So repairs can't be easy. Damage can't be light. Because if it was just a little electrical surge the Geth should be would be fine.

The thing is, we see in the Destroy ending itself that technology we rely on isn't affected. If it is it was unnoticable. BUT, singling out the Geth and saying they are utterly destroyed demands everything else is utterly destroyed. Every single thing that falls under "technology you relay on". It's all or nothing. So from that perspective the Quarians, Kasumi, Shepard, anyone in a ship at the time, etc. are dead. We are in a stone age as every piece of technology is just a sophisticated rock.

Davik Kang wrote...

Yep, you're right, no argument here.  I can see how this fuels your Deception theory too.  There are facts in the game, inculding the breath scene, that suggest the Kid is just blatantly lying, when following your logic.  I admit I assumed that Destroy involved some kind of violent shock to computer-based machines (like an EMP but not actually an EMP) that would sabotage and shut down such machines, via overload, with the consequence of severely damaging the core programming of such things, and therefore killing any such programming that had come to resemble consciousness or life.  And I admit I have no actual evidence to believe that, aside from the veiled threat that all synthetic material would be 'destroyed', which I presumed to imply death to Geth, EDI and others (otherwise the threat lacked the immediate credibility and impact required).  Got no concrete evidence for it, just an assumption based on his vague words.  I imagined that the implication meant system failure rather than actual physical destruction, because the Kid did suggest that the damaged technology could be repaired.  But again, it's more an attempt to piece together what the Kid said in a reasonable way on the spot (though this is what Shepard has to do by the way).

I'm pretty sure Bioware wants people to think the Geth die. The Kid all but said it in the original. Now that it's ingrained in people's head they retconned it. I think they want to portray the Kid as being "technically" honest vs a straight up liar. As has been admitted by their writers, they did not feel Control or Synthesis could stand on their own.  They needed something to make the other two appear better.

[The Twilight God]

wantedman dan wrote...

Squeek!!!

*turns around to catch the tail end of a mouse scrambling back into its hole*

[DavidMW]

I chose refuse not because the choice was too hard to make but because my Shep knew he was in no position to choose what was best for the entire galaxy. He cannot force a future onto the galaxy, People tell me that my inaction caused the whole galaxy to burn. My shep did the right thing, He brought the galaxy together to throw everything they had at the Reapers. It wasn't enough, but he gave them the chance. The next cycle can have one person choose one of the three choices to inflict on his galaxy, but I will not!

[Davik Kang]

The Twilight God wrote...
snip

Yeah again got no problems with your reasoning.  It's all good.  On the cherry picking thing again, the only thing I'd suggest is that, unless I'm misunderstanding, you seem to be implying that the death of the Geth also implies that they get "vaporized".  I figured that the death of synthetics would imply a kind of short-circuiting of their consciousness or something; that's why I brought up the EMP-like idea (not actually EMP, already had this argument with someone).  An organic dies when their 'life is extinguished' - the body may remain otherwise intact but you can't reanimate them, they are dead (unless they're called Cmdr Shepard ).  So I assumed the same with the Geth and other synthetics.  You could repair the units, but any semblance of personality (memory, experience etc.) previously there would be gone.  The point being that failing spinal implants or greyboxes is distinct from the same things being vaporized, which would affect the result of the Destroy choice on electronic equipment and implant-reliant beings significantly.  So again there is still a little room for cherry-picking, or at least being open to the possibility of various outcomes, or at least I see it that way.  But I don't have anywher near your knowledge of the in-game technicalities/codexes etc. so there is a good chance I'm missing something important.  And the point you made about repair equipment was significant too, because every little thing like that (repair/medical/navigational/etc equipment) would have an exponential effect on the amount of time required to get things back to normal.  I guess I could still claim casualties would be enormous, but total destruction is not necessarily a corollary of what the Kid says.

Anyway I don't want to get into an argument about this stuff, already saw one of my threads closed today because trolls started an argument in it, not in the mood for fighting, good night to you all.

[The Twilight God]

frostajulie wrote...

1. You do NOT win when you pick destroy you kill EDi, the Geth, and risk killing anyone with synthetic implants.  NOT a win for many Shepards as a matter of fact as repeatedly pointed out to you (I guess you can't help full on retard) it is a war crime to all Shepards who cnsider the Geth as a synthetic life form- but hey feel free to ignore fact and evidence just so you can get your dick hard slamming people who disagree with you.

The Kid defines "synthetics" as "technology you rely on" within the context of its conversation. At no point does it make any distinction between AI's and other technology. Claiming AI all die is your personal extrapolation which is inherently hypocritical as all other technolgioy would have to be destroyed as well. That doesn't happen. The Geth dying is your own fabrication. Don't pretend like that is some kind of fact. EDI dies because she is made of reaper parts from Sovereign. Patricks Weekes has stated this. Nobody with cybernetic is shown dying, the ships are still running, the guns and armor are still lit up, power is still running, Kasumi is still alive (greybox didn't blow up in her head), Quarian cybernetics aren;t shown to fail, etc. The Kid was full of sh*t to sway you away from destroying them. What a surprise. You had a gun to its head and it said what needed to be said to get you to not pull the trigger. Congrats. A video game character outwitted you.

frostajulie wrote...

2. You know what lse was impossible besides getting to the citidel?  Going through the Omega 4 relay.  Surviving the Omega 4 relay, defeating the collectors in their own base and coming out alive.  Destroying Sovereign.  All that was impossible yet we did it and won  thats not BS thats Fact  Hackett knows we are losing?  SO what?  Is he god now? Garrus, the illusive man, your entire cast of characters in ME2 KNEW that going through the Omega 4 relay was a suicide mission.  Guess what. dee-deedee they were wrong. 

No, actually they didn't know anything. They were told it was a suicide mission probably because they didn;t know what to expect and they assumed the worse. Unless you are calling Hackett and liar, he does know. It's not hypothetical like the Omega-4. there is no guesswork. We are fighting the Reapers right now and they ARe beating our forces. You're like that Iraqi general telling his people they are beating allied forces. We can win! These american dogs will fall!! Anythings possible! Hooray!! We're outnumbers and outgunned. Yeah, we'll use our determination and go get 'em spirit to beat the Reapers... jesus christ.

And how was going through the Omega-4 impossible? You got the IMF and you go through. Simple. The thing about the "suicide mission" is that it turned out not to be so suicidal. The Collector ship was tougher than the base. We win in ME3. You either get indoctrinated hand the Reapers victory or you blow them to hell. You were indoctrinated. So you lost. That's your fault. Me? I won. A video game character was no match for me.

frostajulie wrote...

3. Thank you so much for magically looking inside of my head and suddenly understanding and knowing things about me that I myself was unaware of

You're welcome.

frostajulie wrote...

4. So I lie to myself and I look like a loon?  Thank you oh Jesus for looking inside myself and revealing the depths of my sin Praise you jeebus praise you for that remarkable insight into my character

You are most certainly welcome.

frostajulie wrote...

5.  Thank you again for pointing out to me what I can and cannot think however have I wived dis wong wifout your help in tewing me what I can and cannot weason on my own.  Thank you daddy.

Oh, your praise is too much... please continue.

Next I'll help you with your grammar.

frostajulie wrote...

6.  Ah the joys of self delusion

Now don't slip back into your old ways...

frostajulie wrote...

7.  I actually have dealt with the fact that I won't get the ending I want .

Glad I could help. More praise, please.

frostajulie wrote...

 And you my dear all-wise-all-knowing-all-powerful-reader-of-the-minds-of-men..

Thaaaaaaaaaaaaaanks.
 

frostajulie wrote...

Water is dry?  Oh it is very real 

Water is dry? No. Water is wet. Water is real? Yes, yes it is real. You're learning. Good.

Some advice for your future studies. Just because something has a oxymoron name doesn't mean it literally is what it's name entails. For instance, silica is not water. Lemonade is not water. If you add water to cement, it's no longer water. It has quantifies of H2O in it, but it's not water. Same goes for "liquid fire". Fire is the release of energy via combustion. Not the liquid form of metal. Water is the liquid form of H2O.

frostajulie wrote...
Ah..ahhhh...ahhhhhhhh  Anybody got a cigarette?

Smoking cigarettes is bad for your health. You should try smoking something else.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:57 .

[The Twilight God]

AlanC9 wrote...

While this is a valid interpretation of the speech, I don't think it's a necessary one. Shepard really could be reacting like some players, who find the Reapers so abhorrent that they refuse to do anything that even feels like cooperation with them. Thus turning a virtue into a tragic flaw, and dooming Shepard to total failure with victory in his grasp.

Haven't played a Shep like that yet, but I'm considering it for my no-import run.

It's easy for a player to doom the galaxy. It's not a real galaxy. It's not so easy for Shepard.

Anyone who would pick refuse in a real life situation should be locked up and institutionalized.

[wantedman dan]

The Twilight God wrote...

Petulance

Par for the course, love, par for the course.

[The Twilight God]

Davik Kang wrote...

Yeah again got no problems with your reasoning.  It's all good.  On the cherry picking thing again, the only thing I'd suggest is that, unless I'm misunderstanding, you seem to be implying that the death of the Geth also implies that they get "vaporized".  I figured that the death of synthetics would imply a kind of short-circuiting of their consciousness or something; that's why I brought up the EMP-like idea (not actually EMP, already had this argument with someone). 

It didn't short out the husks. It vaporized them. This I can only assume happens to the Reapers terminators inside the dreadnaughts. I hypothesis that it disintegrates synthesized material. It's the only thing that makes sense in terms of a weapon that is designed to target reapers. Think about it. If the weapon is designed to target technology indieciminately as an EMP the Reapers and husks would be immune. Strengths of both. Weaknesses of neither.



 

[The Twilight God]

wantedman dan wrote...
EEP!

*turns around to see a little mouse scurry into a hole*

Somebody call pest control.

[RiptideX1090]

Refuse is just an infinitely worse version of Destroy. The ultimate outcome of both endings is that the Reapers are gone and the Geth and EDI die, the only difference is that in Refuse, everyone else also dies.

Refuse is for the Shepards that failed, and I can't see it as anything more than a spiteful joke by the developers.

[Volc19]

Refuse is right under Control for me. Control is the best-case scenario as far as I'm concerned (and don't even start with that "totalitarian police state" contrivance), but Refuse is the best in a being-in-character sense.

Also, I... refuse... to believe that the next cycle used the Crucible. THAT would make it the worst ending. I refuse because I would rather see a cycle win against the Reapers on their own terms, without being subjected to the pure idiocy that is the Catalyst. And, seeing as the Reapers know the whereabouts of the Leviathans now, they probably all but exterminated them too. No more worrying about the second Leviathan empire.

[wantedman dan]

The Twilight God wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...
EEP!

*turns around to see a little mouse scurry into a hole*

Somebody call pest control.

Nothing original? C'mon, love, you can do better.

[The Twilight God]

wantedman dan wrote...

Nothing original? C'mon, love, you can do better.

You sure you're not gonna cry because the big bad man over the internet asked you to answer a question?

[wantedman dan]

The Twilight God wrote...

You sure you're not gonna cry because the big bad man over the internet asked you to answer a question?

Funny, I'm still waiting for that first tear to fall. Seems to me the only one crying about me not answering the question is you, amigo.

Modifié par wantedman dan, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:44 .

[The Twilight God]

wantedman dan wrote...

Meep!

*yawn*

[wantedman dan]

The Twilight God wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Meep!

*yawn*

Running out of ideas?

[SkullStrife]

I chose Reject and then THIS happened ^^



finally a good ending =)

[robertthebard]

Volc19 wrote...

Refuse is right under Control for me. Control is the best-case scenario as far as I'm concerned (and don't even start with that "totalitarian police state" contrivance), but Refuse is the best in a being-in-character sense.

Also, I... refuse... to believe that the next cycle used the Crucible. THAT would make it the worst ending. I refuse because I would rather see a cycle win against the Reapers on their own terms, without being subjected to the pure idiocy that is the Catalyst. And, seeing as the Reapers know the whereabouts of the Leviathans now, they probably all but exterminated them too. No more worrying about the second Leviathan empire.

So your Shepard stayed on Virmire, instead of using the Conduit to stop Saren and Sovereign?  Your Shepard got the IFF, but refused to go through the Omega 4 Relay to stop the Collectors?  These would be in character for a Shepard that, given the opportunity to destroy the Reapers, chose to refuse, despite knowing that the entire galaxy is now under Reaper control.  I have been told that, no matter how high your EMS is, the galaxy map looks exactly the same, so there's no denying that the galaxy is under Reaper control; you have stated that Refuse was in character, so it's a marvel that your galaxy got to ME 3.  It's actually a marvel that they got to ME 2, since Refusing to stop the Reapers is in character for you.

[The Twilight God]

wantedman dan wrote...

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep!

So where did you get the idea that the geth are wiped out in Destroy?

[wantedman dan]

The Twilight God wrote...

So where did you get the idea that the geth are wiped out in Destroy?

I'll oblige: My interpretation of the events of the ending.

[Davik Kang]

The Twilight God wrote...
It didn't short out the husks. It vaporized them. This I can only assume happens to the Reapers terminators inside the dreadnaughts. I hypothesis that it disintegrates synthesized material. It's the only thing that makes sense in terms of a weapon that is designed to target reapers. Think about it. If the weapon is designed to target technology indieciminately as an EMP the Reapers and husks would be immune. Strengths of both. Weaknesses of neither.

Dude you got me looking into the whole vaporising thing, and i noticed something:

Destroy Low EMS
 - see 31:00 until 32:15

Destroy High EMS 
- see 1:40 until 2:50

In high EMS, the soldiers from  live.  But in low EMS, the soldiers are vaporized.  I have a theory as to why that might be which I came up with today, and by bizarre coincedence your post pointed me to look at the Destroy endings which happen to give it more credence... thank you so much... not saying you'll agree, you probably won't, but thank you even so...

My EMS idea about the Crucible is here.  Won't repost here, no need to spam the whole thing as it's a fairly big post.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 15 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .