422 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

I think george washington and thomas paine may have something different to say to that

[grey_wind]

ATiBotka wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I chose Refuse because it's the most thematically and narratively coherent ending and, without metagaming, the most rational choice to make when being propositioned by the self-proclaimed Reaper leader.

I knew that conventional victory is impossible, without metagaming.

They called it a Suicide Mission. I proved them wrong.

We surrendered to the Reapers because BioWare allowed it, and we could not defeat them conventionally because BioWare demanded it.

[LiarasShield]

grey_wind wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

I chose Refuse because it's the most thematically and narratively coherent ending and, without metagaming, the most rational choice to make when being propositioned by the self-proclaimed Reaper leader.

I knew that conventional victory is impossible, without metagaming.

They called it a Suicide Mission. I proved them wrong.

We surrendered to the Reapers because BioWare allowed it, and we could not defeat them conventionally because BioWare demanded it.

Nice quote ^^

[Taboo]

You were given a stick to beat the Reapers to death. Why not use it? Surely you'll save more lives in Destroy than Refuse?

Sounds more like people don't want to accept the consequences. Choosing Refuse over Destroy makes ZERO sense.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

LiarasShield wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

I think george washington and thomas paine may have something different to say to that

And what would their view, in your opinion, be on "heroic victory in war"?

[Village_Idiot]

If you rationally choose Refuse, then it's a decision so egomaniacal that it puts most 20th century dictators to shame.

Shepard is dooming the galaxy merely to massage his/her conscience. That's about as selfish as it gets.

Choosing Refuse because you hate the endings however, is a completely different matter.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Maxster_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

[Taboo]

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

[Maxster_]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You were given a stick to beat the Reapers to death. Why not use it? Surely you'll save more lives in Destroy than Refuse?

Sounds more like people don't want to accept the consequences. Choosing Refuse over Destroy makes ZERO sense.

In-character in-game(debatable). And reject EAWare out-game.

[Maxster_]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

[JBPBRC]

LiarasShield wrote...

Icinix wrote...

I chose Refuse because Starbratinger is wrong - and putting a bullet in its head is just too satisfying.

Yes I despise starbinger with a passion of a thousand suns

...You despise him so much you let him win?

This one sounds indoctrinated.

[Cainne Chapel]

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Still dont see why refuse seemed like a better choice than Destroy, whent he whole series we've been trying to find a way to stop the reapers and the crucible gives us our "out" so to speak.

Its not like we're destroying the reapers at their behest, they just cant do anything to stop us and try to appeal to us to keep them whole.

So I say bump that, super weapon activate!

They let us destroy them, after we surrendered to their crazy views and overwhelming force.
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

So its not a heroic victory even though i single handedly save the galaxy witht he power of my own gun?  Sure the catalyst and the crucible explain the choices and WANT me to do obviously what they want me to do, but all hed oes is present me my choices, sure I can refuse, and doom the galaxy like a egomaniac and the souls of billions would be on me.

Or I could use the reapers own weapon against them and initiate what amounts to a giant shut down sequence and spare billions, sure some would die 9as they already have) but I would save the universe as a whole and not doom us all to a giant space faring exctinction event?  Hell yeah I'll choose destroying the reapers over them destroying us with refuse.

Do I like the choices presented? No, but in the end, with destroy, I came there and did what I went there to do, destroy the reapers using their own tech and they couldnt stop it.

Heroic victory to me.  Besides who doesnt like giant space shockwaves that kill the enemy?

[Taboo]

There is nothing good about war. But there is good in why you fight them. You fight for the children, the women the whatever.

When you Refuse you doom every single one of them. You save lives by picking Destroy. I'd call that a victory, especially with Refuse being an option.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

Using Stalin as an example doesn't help anything positively. Even if people believe that there's such a thing as "heroic victory", it doesn't mean there is. That's just propaganda.

[grey_wind]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

If you rationally choose Refuse, then it's a decision so egomaniacal that it puts most 20th century dictators to shame.

Shepard is dooming the galaxy merely to massage his/her conscience. That's about as selfish as it gets.

Choosing Refuse because you hate the endings however, is a completely different matter.

Unless you're metagaming, there is ZERO reason to trust anything the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers says. Hell, all three of his sh!tty options could lead to the entire galactic armada you've assembled being blown up, and for some inexplicable reason all three of his choices demand you die for absolutely no reason.

Refuse is a vald choice under that premise. We're repeatedly told conventional victory is impossible, but when has impossible ever stopped Shepard before? Refuse is by far the most narratively and thematically consistent choice StarJar gives you, but it's a giant middle finger from MacHudson.

Modifié par grey_wind, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Village_Idiot]

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

[quote]Taboo-XX wrote...

There is nothing good about war. But there is good in why you fight them.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Maxster_]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Still dont see why refuse seemed like a better choice than Destroy, whent he whole series we've been trying to find a way to stop the reapers and the crucible gives us our "out" so to speak.

Its not like we're destroying the reapers at their behest, they just cant do anything to stop us and try to appeal to us to keep them whole.

So I say bump that, super weapon activate!

They let us destroy them, after we surrendered to their crazy views and overwhelming force.
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

So its not a heroic victory even though i single handedly save the galaxy witht he power of my own gun?  Sure the catalyst and the crucible explain the choices and WANT me to do obviously what they want me to do, but all hed oes is present me my choices, sure I can refuse, and doom the galaxy like a egomaniac and the souls of billions would be on me.

Or I could use the reapers own weapon against them and initiate what amounts to a giant shut down sequence and spare billions, sure some would die 9as they already have) but I would save the universe as a whole and not doom us all to a giant space faring exctinction event?  Hell yeah I'll choose destroying the reapers over them destroying us with refuse.

Do I like the choices presented? No, but in the end, with destroy, I came there and did what I went there to do, destroy the reapers using their own tech and they couldnt stop it.

Heroic victory to me.  Besides who doesnt like giant space shockwaves that kill the enemy?

You really think, that i argue for a Refuse? I reject what EAWare did to ME universe, that's all. I don't like ME3, i certainly don't like nonsense, ooc and absurd that was the ending.

War was lost, there was no hope. You only won because crazy entity allowed you to win.

Modifié par Maxster_, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:46 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

While i'm not a huge history buff, I've never heard of a war with heroic victory either, because, war by its very nature means that a lot of people (innocent or otherwise) would have died in the ensuing chaos and i cant recall any wars that were ended in one major swoop, it usually takes a while.

at least in real life anyway

Fiction is a whole 'nother matter

[shepskisaac]

LiarasShield wrote...

not siding with them to find a solution that they wanted to have happended or offered

And how exactly Destroy is a win for the Reapers in any shape or form? And how it is their 'offer' if you wanted to do it before they even mentioned it? Also, congratz on killing all advanced races in the galaxy

Modifié par IsaacShep, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:47 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Still dont see why refuse seemed like a better choice than Destroy, whent he whole series we've been trying to find a way to stop the reapers and the crucible gives us our "out" so to speak.

Its not like we're destroying the reapers at their behest, they just cant do anything to stop us and try to appeal to us to keep them whole.

So I say bump that, super weapon activate!

They let us destroy them, after we surrendered to their crazy views and overwhelming force.
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

So its not a heroic victory even though i single handedly save the galaxy witht he power of my own gun?  Sure the catalyst and the crucible explain the choices and WANT me to do obviously what they want me to do, but all hed oes is present me my choices, sure I can refuse, and doom the galaxy like a egomaniac and the souls of billions would be on me.

Or I could use the reapers own weapon against them and initiate what amounts to a giant shut down sequence and spare billions, sure some would die 9as they already have) but I would save the universe as a whole and not doom us all to a giant space faring exctinction event?  Hell yeah I'll choose destroying the reapers over them destroying us with refuse.

Do I like the choices presented? No, but in the end, with destroy, I came there and did what I went there to do, destroy the reapers using their own tech and they couldnt stop it.

Heroic victory to me.  Besides who doesnt like giant space shockwaves that kill the enemy?

You really think, that i argue for a Refuse? I reject what EAWare did to ME universe, that's all. I don't like ME3, i certainly don't like nonsense, ooc and absurd that was the ending.

War was lost, there was no hope. You only won because crazy entity allowed you to win.

That is true, we won with a giant I win button essentially.

But then I'm also the type of person that saw that coming since ME2 honestly

[Maxster_]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

Modifié par Maxster_, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:49 .

[Cainne Chapel]

grey_wind wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

If you rationally choose Refuse, then it's a decision so egomaniacal that it puts most 20th century dictators to shame.

Shepard is dooming the galaxy merely to massage his/her conscience. That's about as selfish as it gets.

Choosing Refuse because you hate the endings however, is a completely different matter.

Unless you're metagaming, there is ZERO reason to trust anything the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers says. Hell, all three of his sh!tty options could lead to the entire galactic armada you've assembled being blown up, and for some inexplicable reason all three of his choices demand you die for absolutely no reason.

Refuse is a vald choice under that premise. We're repeatedly told conventional victory is impossible, but when has impossible ever stopped Shepard before? Refuse is by far the most narratively and thematically consistent choice StarJar gives you, but it's a giant middle finger from MacHudson.

yes shep has done the impossible, well not impossible, improbable maybe, but One man, some how defeating the entire Reaper contigent when he is under gunned, under manned and doesnt have near enough resources?

Thats just downright foolish, kind lika Shepard facing down Harbinger on foot, determination doesnt always win the war,

and refuse dooms the whole cycle to death, how does that seem thematically or narratively consistent when you KNOW your fleets are being decimated and that was the largest fleet ever assembled for the sole purpose of getting you to the point you're at? You're essentially giving the middle finger you say mac and hudson gave us, to the fictional universe yourself by leading themt o the slaughter,

All i know is i went there to stop the reapers, the crucible changed the catalyst and he gave me the keys to victory, I used them.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

[Cainne Chapel]

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

No such thing as a good war honestly, war is always brutal, ugly and brings monsters out of men.

Granted we're a war like species (most super predators tend to be) and being the top of our respective food chain thanks to our intelligence kinda helps that along, there's still never such a thing as a good war.

Good reasons to go to war, of course, stopping tyranny extreme violence and so on, but war is almost certainly always ugly.