422 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

wheeeeeee

Modifié par Bill Casey, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[Maxster_]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

While i'm not a huge history buff, I've never heard of a war with heroic victory either, because, war by its very nature means that a lot of people (innocent or otherwise) would have died in the ensuing chaos and i cant recall any wars that were ended in one major swoop, it usually takes a while.

at least in real life anyway

Fiction is a whole 'nother matter

That depends how you define heroism then.
You can run from battle, you can fight to the death, or even to the victory(depends on overall situation). You can betray your comrades, you can defend your comrades, you can die for your comrades.
War is part of human history, and i'm afraid, of human future also.

[Village_Idiot]

grey_wind wrote...

Unless you're metagaming, there is ZERO reason to trust anything the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers says. Hell, all three of his sh!tty options could lead to the entire galactic armada you've assembled being blown up, and for some inexplicable reason all three of his choices demand you die for absolutely no reason.

Refuse is a vald choice under that premise. We're repeatedly told conventional victory is impossible, but when has impossible ever stopped Shepard before? Refuse is by far the most narratively and thematically consistent choice StarJar gives you, but it's a giant middle finger from MacHudson.

You're correct in that there's no reason to trust the Catalyst. When the alternative offered is complete annihilation however, I'd sooner chance the Crucible's options. If there's any hope, no matter how slight, of some kind of reprieve, then it'd be worth it. Zero metagaming involved.

I agree that the sudden disposal with Shepard's innate ability to "find another way/ a better way" is at complete odds with the rest of the series, but you work with the tools you have. We are given no "fifth option". Shepard is not completely oblivious to the fact an extended conflict with the Reapers is doomed to failure, so i think Refusal makes absolutely no sense unless you're roleplaying an utterly hubristical Shepard.

[Village_Idiot]

Bill Casey wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

wheeeeeee

i c wat u did thar

Well played sir.

Modifié par Shadrach 88, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:00 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Bill Casey wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

wheeeeeee

Look at the pretty colors.
I see what you did there.

[Cainne Chapel]

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

While i'm not a huge history buff, I've never heard of a war with heroic victory either, because, war by its very nature means that a lot of people (innocent or otherwise) would have died in the ensuing chaos and i cant recall any wars that were ended in one major swoop, it usually takes a while.

at least in real life anyway

Fiction is a whole 'nother matter

That depends how you define heroism then.
You can run from battle, you can fight to the death, or even to the victory(depends on overall situation). You can betray your comrades, you can defend your comrades, you can die for your comrades.
War is part of human history, and i'm afraid, of human future also.

in RL, there's manyd ifferent ways to define heroism.

I was merely stating I've very rarely if ever have ever heard of a major war ending in a heroic victory outside of some cliche "We won" type explanation.  most wars tend to be long protracted things that even after gunfire may stop, still go on in other ways and so forth

[Maxster_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

Who are we?
Big difference you know. We never deliberately destroyed german civilians.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

While i'm not a huge history buff, I've never heard of a war with heroic victory either, because, war by its very nature means that a lot of people (innocent or otherwise) would have died in the ensuing chaos and i cant recall any wars that were ended in one major swoop, it usually takes a while.

at least in real life anyway

Fiction is a whole 'nother matter

That depends how you define heroism then.
You can run from battle, you can fight to the death, or even to the victory(depends on overall situation). You can betray your comrades, you can defend your comrades, you can die for your comrades.
War is part of human history, and i'm afraid, of human future also.

I'm not denying that those who fight are heroes of their country. I'm just saying there is no thing as a heroic victory to war.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:04 .

[T-Raks]

No. Sorry OP, I didn't ask, because refuse is an epic fail that lets everyone down while you have a one-time-in-a-trillion shot to defeat the Reapers. Nothing can validate leaving that shot on the table.

[inversevideo]

Shadrach 88 wrote...

If you rationally choose Refuse, then it's a decision so egomaniacal that it puts most 20th century dictators to shame.

Shepard is dooming the galaxy merely to massage his/her conscience. That's about as selfish as it gets.

Choosing Refuse because you hate the endings however, is a completely different matter.

I have a really difficult time understanding why you believe this?

Hard core RPGers do not meta-game. No save-n-replay, no YouTube.
There is nothing, in your dealings with Starkid up to that point, that would lead you to believe that you do not have a shot at reasoning with the AI. It tells you that the Crucible has opened new paths. It offers you Control and Destroy. You propose a new solution and it goes off. You cannot predict that.

I choose destroy, but that was my pre-EC choice as well. If I were not meta-gaming then refuse is a very valid choice. But I choose genocide every time. The other choices are worse in my opinion.

But based on everything you know, at the point of having to make a choice, refuse is appropriate.

If your style of play is save-n- replay then one of the other choices would lead to a better outcome.

Or, strangely enough, given that Starkid cannot be reasoned with, and it's choices are it's choices and not the galaxies', maybe refuse is correct. Maybe that is the point. Maybe the galaxy has to commit the ultimate sacrifice so that future life can live free.

We do not know, because Bioware decided to play with our minds, during the last 10 minutes of the game, when all I wanted, for all the sacrifice already made, was to live or die, but feel like a big 'gudammed hero' doing it.

Those who chose refuse do so for very valid reasons, and not to eff the galaxy.
If you are not meta-gaming then refuse is a valid call.

[Maxster_]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
This is certainly not a heroic victory.

There never is in war.

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

Not sure if srs...

I know history well, i definitely know, how to differ heroic victory from crushing defeat.

While i'm not a huge history buff, I've never heard of a war with heroic victory either, because, war by its very nature means that a lot of people (innocent or otherwise) would have died in the ensuing chaos and i cant recall any wars that were ended in one major swoop, it usually takes a while.

at least in real life anyway

Fiction is a whole 'nother matter

That depends how you define heroism then.
You can run from battle, you can fight to the death, or even to the victory(depends on overall situation). You can betray your comrades, you can defend your comrades, you can die for your comrades.
War is part of human history, and i'm afraid, of human future also.

in RL, there's manyd ifferent ways to define heroism.

I was merely stating I've very rarely if ever have ever heard of a major war ending in a heroic victory outside of some cliche "We won" type explanation.  most wars tend to be long protracted things that even after gunfire may stop, still go on in other ways and so forth

Unconditional surrender of the Germany is certainly a complete and heroic victory.
And if we go back in time, in 18th century, there we have Suvorov, who also had a lot of heroic victories. Smaller scale, of course, but some of them led to a end of wars.
Or Peter Ist complete defeat of Sweden. That was a long one, yes.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

Who are we?
Big difference you know. We never deliberately destroyed german civilians.

The Allies bombed Germany cities day and night for years, even cities who had no real affect on the war. And the Soviet Union blasted the entire city of Berlin to rubble and did terrible things to both German troops and civilians.
Also, Stalin's "Great Purges" killed far more than Hitler's "Final Solution".

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:03 .

[Taboo]

Did I...just see someone strawman themselves?

lol BSN.

[Aaleel]

I don't see how saying refuse leads to the death of all the advanced races in meta-gaming.

You're literally slapped in the face the entire game with the fact that conventional victory is impossible and that the crucible is the only means of salvation.

What do people think is going to happen if you choose refuse without being able to win conventionally. Everyone is going to die, the cycle is going to continue. No meta-gaming is needed to deduce this.

[Village_Idiot]

inversevideo wrote...

Hard core RPGers do not meta-game. No save-n-replay, no YouTube.
There is nothing, in your dealings with Starkid up to that point, that would lead you to believe that you do not have a shot at reasoning with the AI. It tells you that the Crucible has opened new paths. It offers you Control and Destroy. You propose a new solution and it goes off. You cannot predict that.

I choose destroy, but that was my pre-EC choice as well. If I were not meta-gaming then refuse is a very valid choice. But I choose genocide every time. The other choices are worse in my opinion.

But based on everything you know, at the point of having to make a choice, refuse is appropriate.

If your style of play is save-n- replay then one of the other choices would lead to a better outcome.

Or, strangely enough, given that Starkid cannot be reasoned with, and it's choices are it's choices and not the galaxies', maybe refuse is correct. Maybe that is the point. Maybe the galaxy has to commit the ultimate sacrifice so that future life can live free.

We do not know, because Bioware decided to play with our minds, during the last 10 minutes of the game, when all I wanted, for all the sacrifice already made, was to live or die, but feel like a big 'gudammed hero' doing it.

Those who chose refuse do so for very valid reasons, and not to eff the galaxy.
If you are not meta-gaming then refuse is a valid call.

You can similarily reason that when not metagaming, Shepard is presented with three choices, none of which have any guarantee of working beyond the word of an entity who Shepard has no reason to trust.

The alternative however, is complete extermination. Shepard might battle the odds, but he/she isn't unaware of the fact that half the galaxy has fallen to Reaper control, and that the forces now gathered are effectively a "do-or-die" attempt to end the conflict, since prolonging it is completely infeasible.

So we have three extremely dicey options, or certain death for everyone. No metagaming involved, and I know which one I'd sooner choose.

[Maxster_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

Who are we?
Big difference you know. We never deliberately destroyed german civilians.

The Allies bombed Germany cities day and night for years, even cities who had no real affect on the war. And the Soviet Union blasted the entire city of Berlin to rubble and did terrible things to both German troops and civilians.
Also, Stalin's "Great Purges" killed far more than Hitler's "Final Solution".

Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

P.S. As for Berlin battle, there was no artillery levelling, there was a fight for every house.

Modifié par Maxster_, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

Who are we?
Big difference you know. We never deliberately destroyed german civilians.

The Allies bombed Germany cities day and night for years, even cities who had no real affect on the war. And the Soviet Union blasted the entire city of Berlin to rubble and did terrible things to both German troops and civilians.
Also, Stalin's "Great Purges" killed far more than Hitler's "Final Solution".

Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

The numbers you provided are of Russian death. The total death tole of Stalin's reign was about 30 million(Did a history paper on it) while Hitler's was about 15 million, so twice as much.

[LilLino]

Aaleel wrote...

I don't see how saying refuse leads to the death of all the advanced races in meta-gaming.

You're literally slapped in the face the entire game with the fact that conventional victory is impossible and that the crucible is the only means of salvation.

What do people think is going to happen if you choose refuse without being able to win conventionally. Everyone is going to die, the cycle is going to continue. No meta-gaming is needed to deduce this.

This, jesus, we're even seeing a couple of times how OWNED we get. This whole 'conventional victory' debate is ridiculous. 

I choose destroy EVERY DAMN time. It's the only way of destroying the Reapers and end their influence over the galaxy once and for all. Destroying Geth and EDI is a small sacrifice compared to the goddamn victory this achieves. 
And Genocide part? I'm not ripping their insides apart, torturing or eating them. I'm turning off synthetic race that doesn't have true emotions or feelings and barely understand us. We'll rebuild them, they'll forgive us. They knew we all were desperate.

And what does Refuse achieve? It makes EVERYONE effectively dead. You don't only kill Geth&Edi YOU KILL EVERYONE. Hacketts says we can't win conventonally, Primarch Victus says so, hell even Catalyst says so. You can even fu*king witness that over Earth. So don't give me this meta-gaming crap.
You let everyone die. What kind of 'hero' are you? 

[Maxster_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Zhukov, Rokossovkij and Stalin want to have a word with you. Also Peter I, Menshikov, Dolgorukij and Suvorov.
Oh well, there is a long list.

The Great Patriotic War was hardly heroic.

Utter brutality perpetuated by both sides due to both cultures being indoctrinated into dehumanising each other. Roving death squads. Scorched earth tactics to kill off the civilian population. Politco-military attachés who had the power to summarily execute those who waivered. Oh, and the largest mass rape in human history.

How on Earth is that heroic?

Yeah, yeah. I know those lies well enough.
Germans deliberately destroyed near 18 millions of civilian population. And we refused to pay them the same. We could easily level all their cities with massive MIRV artillery strikes to repay.

You realize we did that in WWII, right?
Also, love how you defered from the Russians to the Germans.

Who are we?
Big difference you know. We never deliberately destroyed german civilians.

The Allies bombed Germany cities day and night for years, even cities who had no real affect on the war. And the Soviet Union blasted the entire city of Berlin to rubble and did terrible things to both German troops and civilians.
Also, Stalin's "Great Purges" killed far more than Hitler's "Final Solution".

Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

The numbers you provided are of Russian death. The total death tole of Stalin's reign was about 30 million(Did a history paper on it) while Hitler's was about 15 million, so twice as much.

Yeah, yeah. And whose was those?

[grey_wind]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

Shadrach 88 wrote...

If you rationally choose Refuse, then it's a decision so egomaniacal that it puts most 20th century dictators to shame.

Shepard is dooming the galaxy merely to massage his/her conscience. That's about as selfish as it gets.

Choosing Refuse because you hate the endings however, is a completely different matter.

Unless you're metagaming, there is ZERO reason to trust anything the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers says. Hell, all three of his sh!tty options could lead to the entire galactic armada you've assembled being blown up, and for some inexplicable reason all three of his choices demand you die for absolutely no reason.

Refuse is a vald choice under that premise. We're repeatedly told conventional victory is impossible, but when has impossible ever stopped Shepard before? Refuse is by far the most narratively and thematically consistent choice StarJar gives you, but it's a giant middle finger from MacHudson.

yes shep has done the impossible, well not impossible, improbable maybe, but One man, some how defeating the entire Reaper contigent when he is under gunned, under manned and doesnt have near enough resources?

Thats just downright foolish, kind lika Shepard facing down Harbinger on foot, determination doesnt always win the war,

and refuse dooms the whole cycle to death, how does that seem thematically or narratively consistent when you KNOW your fleets are being decimated and that was the largest fleet ever assembled for the sole purpose of getting you to the point you're at? You're essentially giving the middle finger you say mac and hudson gave us, to the fictional universe yourself by leading themt o the slaughter,

All i know is i went there to stop the reapers, the crucible changed the catalyst and he gave me the keys to victory, I used them.

How Refuse wins the cycle:

Catalyst: I am the collective consciounsess of every Reaper.
Shep: Really? Change of plans, Hackett. Tell the fleet to concentrate all fire on the Citadel.
Catalyst: What the hell are you doing?
Shep: See, you just told me that you're the combined thought process of every Reaper. And I know what happens when you destroy something a Reaper has uploaded itself into.... you see where I'm going with this?

But I'm joking. Refuse is the most thematically and narratively consistent choice not in its consequences but in what it represents: that no higher power can dictate our destiny to us and that we are free to forge our own path. That wasultimately what the conflict with the Reapers always came down to, what we proved when we defeated Sovereign and stopped Harbinger. It's what the Krogan fought for when they wanted a cure for the Genophage, it's what the Geth rebelled for when the Quarians tried to destroy them. By invalidating that very theme three games were building on, MacHudson spit on the franchise they helped create.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]LDS Darth Revan wrote...Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

[/quote]
The numbers you provided are of Russian death. The total death tole of Stalin's reign was about 30 million(Did a history paper on it) while Hitler's was about 15 million, so twice as much. [/quote]
Yeah, yeah. And whose was those?

[/quote]
Don't understand what you question is asking. Please clarify and I will try to accomadate your curiosity.

[Village_Idiot]

grey_wind wrote...

But I'm joking. Refuse is the most thematically and narratively consistent choice not in its consequences but in what it represents: that no higher power can dictate our destiny to us and that we are free to forge our own path. That wasultimately what the conflict with the Reapers always came down to, what we proved when we defeated Sovereign and stopped Harbinger. It's what the Krogan fought for when they wanted a cure for the Genophage, it's what the Geth rebelled for when the Quarians tried to destroy them. By invalidating that very theme three games were building on, MacHudson spit on the franchise they helped create.

Thematically consistent? I agree entirely. The ending's themes are completely abhorrent and detached from that of the rest of the trilogy.

But as I said before, I work with the tools I've got. Refusing makes no logical sense. Hence why I don't choose it.

[Maxster_]

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

The numbers you provided are of Russian death. The total death tole of Stalin's reign was about 30 million(Did a history paper on it) while Hitler's was about 15 million, so twice as much.

Yeah, yeah. And whose was those?

Don't understand what you question is asking. Please clarify and I will try to accomadate your curiosity.

It is clear to me, that you have no idea what are you talking about.
Near 18 millions civilian citizens of USSR only were deliberately destroyed. Add to that jews, poljaks, and other, and then you will know true horror of nazy Germany.

Modifié par Maxster_, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:22 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Maxster_ wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...Really? There was 600 thousands death sentences between 1922 and 1953. This of course, very many, but not even close to Hitler's doing.
Also, 2.5 millions sentenced to a prison camps maximum(by same years).

The numbers you provided are of Russian death. The total death tole of Stalin's reign was about 30 million(Did a history paper on it) while Hitler's was about 15 million, so twice as much.

Yeah, yeah. And whose was those?

Don't understand what you question is asking. Please clarify and I will try to accomadate your curiosity.

It is clear to me, that you have no idea what are you talking about.
Near 18 millions civilian citizens of USSR only were deliberately destroyed. Add to that jews, poljaks, and other, and then you will know true horror of nazy Germany.

When did I say that National Socialist Germany wasn't one of the worst government's to ever exist. All I stated was that Stalin's reign had a higher death toll than Hitler's did.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 13 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .