305 réponses à ce sujet

[Eriseley]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

The reason Bioware shouldn't ever concern themselves with adding specific genders is because gender, if you're doing it right, has no effect on gameplay. That's not right. DLC should have an effect on gameplay. Affect? Effect? Whatever, not sure which one to use here. Anyway, for every minute a Bioware dev spends rendering Asari or Quarian or (god forbid) Turian females, they should be creating entirely new powers and gameplay mechanics. The Volus aren't cool because "oh hey, now I can finally realize my dream of being a rolly-polly huckster!" they're cool because they added pure support classes finally. That's valuable. I want to play that.

Is there some reason rendering females causes such a catastrophic zero-sum loss to development time versus the constant flow of new stuff that aren't new powers and gameplay mechanics that I never see you or anyone else complaining about? Do the boobs cost extra?

Modifié par Eriseley, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:13 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Dest1ny wrote...

Foxtrot813 wrote...
If there's a time-crunch and Bioware only has time to either add a new power or make a new female model, they should always go with the former.

Read and learn.  This person speaks the truth most of us feel and have echoed in this thread.

The complaint of having too little females (or males) isn't exactly necessary right now , most people don't care if there's more females added or less. It doesn't make a difference or truly matter. We just want BW's attention focused on aspects which are worth focusing on and a proper priority. Ones which affect the WHOLE playerbase and game as a whole, not a minority. 

On a side note, can't believe this topic is still alive.

I read that whole thing and I have to say:

You're mistaken on how the workload is divided. The guys who create the visual effects for powers, the guys who actually do the code work for the characters and powers, and the guys who actually create the animations and meshes are not the same people. The only thing any of those tasks have in common is that they're all drawing from the project budget. The question isn't "new power or new female character mesh?" It's "new male character mesh or new female character mesh?" The decision on whether they can afford to create any new character meshes and new voice sets is a separate thing entirely from deciding what those actually are. Once a character mesh is in the budget, it's in the budget regardless of if it's male, female, red, blue or an animate Klein bottle.

In other words, if BioWare has the budget to create six new powers and four new character meshes for a DLC, making those four new characters women has no impact whatsoever on how many new powers we get. All this hostility towards the idea of BioWare maybe adding more women is entirely unwarranted.

Considering this was just an innocent thread saying "Hey, I'd like to see more women here are some ideas," the hostility it was getting as early as page one is just shameful.

Also, I think the cost of creating a new female character is being overestimated. Just for an example: the only thing a krogan female would really require would be a new voice set. That's a lot fewer new assets than were needed to make the volus.

EDIT: I suspect Retaliation's gender ratios and lack of new character meshes owes a lot to the addition of the Collectors as a faction (lots of new character art and sounds). So I wouldn't give up anything in retaliation (quarian marksman could be a girl and not require any new art, though). This still has no bearing on future DLC. If they can budget for six new characters in a future DLC, it wouldn't be coming out of the "new powers" budget, since that's a separate thing entirely.

Modifié par EvanKester, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:16 .

[Foxtrot813]

Eriseley wrote...

 Do the boobs cost extra?

If the boobs ARE extra, yeah.

EvanKester wrote...
I read that whole thing and I have to say:

You're mistaken on how the workload is divided. The guys who create the visual effects for powers, the guys who actually do the code work for the characters and powers, and the guys who actually create the animations and meshes are not the same people. The only thing any of those tasks have in common is that they're all drawing from the project budget. The question isn't "new power or new female character mesh?" It's "new male character mesh or new female character mesh?" The decision on whether they can afford to create any new character meshes and new voice sets is a separate thing entirely from deciding what those actually are. Once a character mesh is in the budget, it's in the budget regardless of if it's male, female, red, blue or an animate Klein bottle.

In other words, if BioWare has the budget to create six new powers and four new character meshes for a DLC, making those four new characters women has no impact whatsoever on how many new powers we get. All this hostility towards the idea of BioWare maybe adding more women is entirely unwarranted.

Considering this was just an innocent thread saying "Hey, I'd like to see more women here are some ideas," the hostility it was getting as early as page one is just shameful.

Just for an example, the only thing a krogan female would really require would be a new voice set. That's a lot fewer new assets than were needed to make the volus.

Really? I thought all the Volus models were already in-game, just new animations and voices. Regardless.

I was referring more to project goals. If it comes down to "DLC introducing new race" or "DLC introducing more girls :3" I'd prefer the former because it adds more to the actual gameplay. Like I said in my post, gender should be the art department's thing. If they want the kit to be a girl for the sake of whatever aesthetic they're going for like the Fury or Shadow, go for it. My point was that it should never be a focus, male of female. It's dumb.

[Grunt_Platform]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

Really? I thought all the Volus models were already in-game, just new animations and voices. Regardless.

I was referring more to project goals. If it comes down to "DLC introducing new race" or "DLC introducing more girls :3" I'd prefer the former because it adds more to the actual gameplay. Like I said in my post, gender should be the art department's thing. If they want the kit to be a girl for the sake of whatever aesthetic they're going for like the Fury or Shadow, go for it. My point was that it should never be a focus, male of female. It's dumb.

The volus needed, if nothing else, for the textures of the character meshes to be treated to handle the character custimization system, new rigging to handle the attachment of weapons, new animations for all their combat actions, and a new voice set. Also, I'm pretty sure the meshes were slightly altered, but I haven't done a side by side comparison.

I do agree that a "add more girls!" DLC would be a terrible theme for a DLC, but I also think it's pretty awful how rapidly Bioware's fallen into the "male is the default sex!" trap. I would wholly endorse "more females" as a secondary goal to DLC that is otherwise all about expanding on the gameplay mechanics. The addition of quarian males sets a nice precedent that could be used in reverse. They gave us new grenades and Tactical Scan, while also reminding us that quarians aren't monogender. How hard would it be to do the same with turians, and krogan? (Answer: Pretty easy, since the differences between males and females with these two specieis is about the same as the difference between the Mattock and Harrier art assets)

Still, remember that fan threads expressing a desire to see something are not the same as saying "MAKE THIS THE ENTIRETY OF A DLC."  The OP didn't just say  "make a girl exactly like [kit X]," the bulk of the post is actually built around a new Turian Soldier concept that's built around two powers, one of which would be an entirely new mechanic!

I think "Has a shield like the Paladin's, but can walk and shoot with the shield out" is a valid enough character concept to justify the expense involved in also making that character female, especially since there was more to the character there.

If your principles there are really what's underlying the bulk of the rage, then the validity of the character idea should be at stake, not the validity of female characters in general. The constructive thing to do would be to say "Hey, so I see you've got a theme going of new bulky fighters, most of whom are women. How can we develop this concept further?"

The bulk of the criticism given was "STAY IN THE KITCHEN."

Modifié par EvanKester, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:35 .

[Krantzstone]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

You know, I just realized I've posted three times in this thread, but I haven't actually said anything serious. That's not unusual for me, but I'd like to break the trend for just a second.

The reason Bioware shouldn't ever concern themselves with adding specific genders is because gender, if you're doing it right, has no effect on gameplay. That's not right. DLC should have an effect on gameplay. Affect? Effect? Whatever, not sure which one to use here. Anyway, for every minute a Bioware dev spends rendering Asari or Quarian or (god forbid) Turian females, they should be creating entirely new powers and gameplay mechanics. The Volus aren't cool because "oh hey, now I can finally realize my dream of being a rolly-polly huckster!" they're cool because they added pure support classes finally. That's valuable. I want to play that.

I don't care what genitals the characters have, and definitely not to satisfy some trivial "gender ratio" BS. I want patches, good balance changes and interesting DLC, Bioware shouldn't feel pressured to take time away from those things just because of a very, very vocal minority. I would wager most girls don't even care about this. I don't know why anyone would care about the visual model of a character over what they offer to the game itself. When I play the Paladin, I feel the same way as when I play the Fury. It makes no difference. If anything the guys in the art department should decide.

I feel like this whole issue is created by individuals who feel the need to project fragile sociopolitical views into mainstream media as a form of validation. It's a video game. The game is the important part. If there's a time-crunch and Bioware only has time to either add a new power or make a new female model, they should always go with the former.

I disagree.  Look at the case of Brink (http://www.gamecriti...o-girls-allowed) , where a lot of people refused to even buy the game after discovering that you can't play as a female.  It may be 'fluff' to some people (namely guys who don't understand male privilege) but it matters to female gamers who have been marginalized and excluded from a lot of games in the past.  It was a big deal for women to be able to have the kind of progressive game like the Mass Effect series which allowed them to actually play as their own gender, rather than have to pretend to be a guy because game companies weren't interested in catering to women.

The fact is, there are a lot more female gamers than male gamers suspect, and there are more every day as sexist attitudes towards women and their ability and drive to play games (especially competitive ones) changes so that more girls are coming into the game industry without thinking that it's not something that girls are allowed/supposed to be doing.

As a gamer, I love games.  And I know that people, regardless of their gender (male, female, intersex, etc.) enjoy the kind of melding of skills, reaction time, hand-eye coordination, tactical thinking, strategic planning, competitive drive and pure fun that gaming (particularly video games) represents.  I think it's terrible that Western male chauvinism in our society created a gaming industry which was biased against and excluded girls and women, which created the kind of sausagefest that the gaming world was until fairly recently, because I'm sure that if girls had grown up playing and loving games, and hadn't been socialized to _not_ get into gaming, and excluded from games partly from a lack of representation, there would be a gaming industry led by women with women designing and making games which may well be substantially different from the glut of testosterone-heavy macho games which flood the market every year.

As it stands now, it's an uphill battle for female gamers to even be allowed to play, because they often face the kind of outright hostility, abuse, passive-aggressive resentment, social exclusion and bullying from male gamers to the point where it simply isn't fun for them anymore.

To a guy, it's not a big deal to have to play a female character in a game, because there are so many other games for us to choose from where we can play as a guy, and more to the point, men have the kind of privilege in society where we don't even have to worry or think about that very issue.  _That_ is why this issue may seem to some guys that it's irrelevant and inconsequential or otherwise unimportant: guys have never had to worry about underrepresentation, because we've never experienced it.

Misogyny and sexism against women don't always have to take the most extreme forms like battered wives or raped and murdered women: those are just the most extreme symptoms of a problem that is much more pervasive and exists along a huge spectrum, and arguably it's the little things like snide comments and jokes on forums like these which set the tone and inevitably lay the foundations for the kinds of extreme misogyny which ultimately culminates in the creation of a society where women are treated as the property of men, and little girls get shot in the head for wanting an education.

You may think 'oh, that only happens in backwards countries', but even the U.S. currently has Republican politicians who want to strip women of their reproductive rights or hold the most ridiculous and ignorant ideas about female biology (eg. Todd Akin), and these are politicians very close to Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan.  Senate candidate Elizabeth Warren has even pointed out that 'We should not [have to] be fighting about equal pay for equal work and access to birth control in 2012', but here you are.

Even in Canada, a Conservative backbencher recently tried to reopen the abortion debate and while our Prime Minister refused to take a stand except to claim that he wasn't interested in reopening the debate, he also didn't force his cabinet ministers to vote against it (even though PM Stephen Harper is notorious for forcing his party members to vote along his dictates when it suits him), which resulted in some high profile cabinet members voting to reopen the abortion debate, including (ironically) the female Minister for the Status of Women, Rona Ambrose.

Women's rights don't just disappear in one day: they are gradually eroded as male chauvinists take power, and it always starts with the little things that people don't even think about and don't bother protesting because it doesn't seem particularly important.  But if no one stands up to it, and if no one stands up for the so-called little things like better gender representation for women in games, soon game developers will start thinking it's no big deal, that it doesn't matter.  Then they'll stop trying to design games that better cater to women, they'll stop bothering to include any content which represents women at all, because it's not 'cost effective' and 'unimportant'.

Even looking at the issue from a purely business-driven point of view, the gaming industry has largely been taken over by social gaming, which has been spurred by female gamers.  While 'core' gamers may not think of games like Farmville as being 'real gaming' at all, the fact is, Zynga made oodles of cash with games like that, which means there's a huge untapped market for games geared towards women.  And those are just women with no prior history of video gaming for the most part, they're just ordinary housewives who were bored while on Facebook: imagine what a huge untapped market there is of up-and-coming female gamers if game companies started catering to and appealing to girls _now_.  We live in a digital age where mass consumer devices which can play some very sophisticated online games are within easy reach of the average family, and even the kids.  Children today are born never knowing a life without the internet or mobile computing, and those are not just little boys but little girls who are growing up with hands-on learning on computers, smartphones, consoles, etc.

To _not_ try to capture that emerging market of female gamers and get them hooked early on to video games would be a staggeringly huge loss of revenue to the games industry, an industry where core gaming is rapidly hitting the point of saturation of the male gamer market.  Opening up that industry and market to women and girls would easily bring back core gaming from the kind of stagnant death which is being threatened as game publishers become increasingly worried about the bottom line and are pushing game developers to just keep rehashing the same old tired games and franchises at the expense of truly innovative and interesting games.

Furthermore, I truly believe that the more female gamers there are, the more girls and women will eventually enter the industry as game developers, and they'll bring valuable insight into better appealing and catering to girls and women while also bringing fresh ideas to the table in terms of new games for people regardless of gender.  Having that larger pool of talent and experience from women will be invaluable for game companies in the coming years as they vie to capture this new market.

But it all starts with making female gamers feel represented, to make them feel that they aren't be excluded, and if that means putting in some extra money, time and effort even just to design some new skins and add additional voice work, then so be it.  It's a small price to pay to garner huge popularity from and gain the loyalty of female gamers, and it'll pay back in spades.

Modifié par Krantzstone, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:29 .

[Dyssar]

Female Drell Infiltrator and Vanguard. I just hope the Turian Female Soldier has better mobility to play off the idea that their females are more mobile then the males are. Could go for Krogan Females too. Hell I just really want to play as a Drell Soldier for some odd reason.. While an all female dlc is something I wouldn't mind I would rather they take their time to make their powers work.

[Eriseley]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

If the boobs ARE extra, yeah.

Volus could have been completely recycled human models with the same old voice over material. MAN WHAT WASTED POTENTIAL, YOU MUST BE REALLY DISAPPOINTED. Let's not even get started on the new Turians, tut tut. Perhaps new weapons would come out balanced if only they'd stop wasting time rendering new guns. And the Collectors, why aren't they just all recolored Husks? Shame. But man, male Quarians?!

Asking for female characters is no different than the constant clamoring for other aesthetic content we see on these forums, and new DLC I believe has always and IMO hopefully always will include new art. I fail to see the problem with asking for more female characters if that is what one desires to see.

Modifié par Eriseley, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:39 .

[heyakate]

Dyssar wrote...

Female Drell Infiltrator and Vanguard. I just hope the Turian Female Soldier has better mobility to play off the idea that their females are more mobile then the males are. Could go for Krogan Females too. Hell I just really want to play as a Drell Soldier for some odd reason.. While an all female dlc is something I wouldn't mind I would rather they take their time to make their powers work.

Seconding the female Drell Infiltrator and Vanguard. I'd love to see that.

[Rudest]

EvanKester..These threads are never 'innocent'.

They start out that way sometimes sure. Asking for more female characters? Not a big deal. Making a persuasive argument that they should be added? Not a big deal. Implying that they haven't been added because of some borderline invisible discrimination? Absurd!

But then sooner or later, someone injects their entitled filth and implies they are being oppressed in a society where the female does her fair share of oppressing on a sociological and personal scale. Drawing false gender-lines in the sand, and screaming at the top of their lungs over something trivial as if it's some sort of personal attack.

A real gamer would embrace the art and culture, and wouldn't think twice about gender or the gender of his/her avatars. They would appreciate them regardless for what they are. That's why games are played. To relax, to play, to have fun, to admire the cumulative art each game represents.

I love Mass Effect because I love the setting, the art, the style, the story, the characters----regardless of their gender. My male Shepard was female. Why? Because I support more females in video games? No. (Not against it either) Because I wanted to stare at TnA? No. It was because I like the voice actor better; male Shepard's voice have about the same amount of rhythm as a breadstick, where as FemShep emotes so much more fluidly. A decision made in embrace of the art. I'll always choose the art first. I'll never choose a character because, somewhere in my delusional entitled mind, I think I should push for a pointless victory over the opposing gender.

That's what angers me. The incessant extremist female, who like they do in every other venue, try and encroach on this culture, and in a territorial fashion, make it all about them. I have no problem with asking for more characters, but they way they ask, the quipy little aggravating things they imply---that's what sends me flying off the handle.

I've been trying abstain from this particular thread.

In short it's not the "I would please like to see more female characters!" that bothers me.

It's the "I want to see more female characters because I'm being oppressed and discriminated against, and men should give me more more more more more, until they are just soulless husks, even though I'll never be satisfied or appreciate anything they do for me."

[Foxtrot813]

Eriseley wrote...

Foxtrot813 wrote...

If the boobs ARE extra, yeah.

Volus could have been completely recycled human models with the same old voice over material. MAN WHAT WASTED POTENTIAL, YOU MUST BE REALLY DISAPPOINTED. Let's not even get started on the new Turians, tut tut. Perhaps new weapons would come out balanced if only they'd stop wasting time rendering new guns. And the Collectors, why aren't they just all recolored Husks? Shame. But man, male Quarians?!

Asking for female characters is no different than the constant clamoring for other aesthetic content we see on these forums, and new DLC I believe has always and IMO hopefully always will include new art. I fail to see the problem with asking for more female characters if that is what one desires to see.

I was making an implants joke. Srry.

And to Krantz, sorry man I just can't read all that. If it had just been yours, maybe, but after just finishing scaling EvanKester's wall, I don't think I have the energy.

I'll assume what you wrote was extremely insightful and thought-provoking.

Modifié par Foxtrot813, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:43 .

[Grunt_Platform]

Krantzstone wrote...

[Lots of truth]

Psst, thanks for writing all that, but explicit political affiliations might not be the best thing to bring into the forum. Hurts your signal to noise ratio, since you'll get people distracted by the election issues, which is really so far off topic for this thread. Dear everybody else: Please resist the temptation to jump onto an argument about presidential candidates etc.


On point: Women are severely underrepresented in media, and it's not a laughing matter. There are seriously hundreds of really good articles written about the issue every day. It's more pronounced in games, and let's face it, most of the women in games are aimed at satisfying an adolescent male sexual fantasy. Yes, especially the asari, as much as I like them. They were designed to be the "green space babes" of Mass Effect, and everything else about them came after, likely because the team at BioWare is actually intelligent and cares about these things.

I think BioWare's a decent job so far, and has been hampered more by the realities of game development than anythng else—But that's no reason not to ask them to maybe try a little harder, especially with the Mulitplayer.

Rudest wrote...
[...]

It's the "I want to see more female characters because I'm being oppressed and discriminated against, and men should give me more more more more more, until they are just soulless husks, even though I'll never be satisfied or appreciate anything they do for me."

Please re-read the first two pages of this thread and ask yourself: Who started this fight?

Then read your post again.


Foxtrot- Sorry if I was a bit wordy! I was responding to a pretty large post myself. 

Modifié par EvanKester, 14 octobre 2012 - 12:49 .

[Eriseley]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

I was making an implants joke. Srry.

Nah, my apologies, went off on yah.

[Rebel_Raven]

Rodia Driftwood wrote...

I understand and I know you did not made this thread. I actually thought of you when I read the whole thing(really). I don't view the actual discussion as trivial. What I view as trivial is the over thinking of it. Your actual desire for more female characters, like..what does it really matter to you if there are more or less female characters in the game? I won't lie, I'd like to see an Asari commando with that fan-made Asari Sniper Rifle and some cool moves, but it looks to me that that's not what you want; You just want more female characters. But, please proof me wrong and shove me out of my ignorance and tell me why you're mad.

Of course it would be weird to release a Vorcha Infiltrator and feature him with the Asari Sniper Rifle..




PS: You're right though. Some people are here just for the sandwich jokes.

Well, considering the quote, it did feel like you were calling me out for calling him out for calling me out, and trolling another person on top of it.

And yes, I often overstate the importance of female characters to me, and the addition of more in the future. 
It is important to me.
I'm passionate over it.
I really want Bioware to understand that I, and many others want them so we don't get another DLC that swings way out of favor of female characters again. We had Rebellion, and this one. I think that's enough.

There's a greater sense of urgency now considering the current DLC is seemingly going to take -3- months to be fully out and no way to know who's next. It's reasonable to believe that there will not be another DLC in mp for those 3 months, if not longer.

I'm assuming the Asari commando you wanted was an infiltrator? I can say that we are getting an Asari infiltrator this DLC. I do hope she meets up to, or goes beyond your expectations when she gets released.

I can't say I can get enthused over a sniper rifle, as they aren't my style in general, but I still wish your hopes the best. Bioware does seem to take some inspiration from this board.

Do I "just want more female characters" as you put it? Yes, and no.

Yes, it makes me happy to see a female, or two for every 6.

No, I don't just want them for the lulz, out of some vendetta, or some horrible horrible feminist alterior motive.

Truth be told, I want them for the same reason anyone wants new characters. First and foremost, Variety.
Only diffirence from the majority is I prefer playing as a female character over a male character. 
Please do remember that this mentality is shared by some men, and women alike, and please do not berate me over it. Many do, but say nothing to the guys that admit that they only want to play male characters.

I have been as specefic as I could get without making a DLC idea.  On that note, I admire the OP for having done so!

I have asked for a female krogan vanguard to cover the female roster's lack of a high durability, if not nigh invulnerable character.
As much as people like to point out the Asari Sentinel, I point out that I don't believe she'll be spectacularly durable as the Human Female sentinel isn't, or spectacularly deadly with her weapons, or melee, or powers. Kinda wondering just how deadly she'll be in general. We'll see eventually?

I have asked for a female soldier for the sake of having a woman with a high synergy with weapons as opposed to being more reliant on throwing things/power at enemies. It'd help if this female soldier wasn't something of a glass cannon in the process. A variety among my female soldiers would be nice since we only have 1, and she's the default human.
What helped make me angry was the fact we have a male quarian soldier in this DLC and no female quarian equivalent.

I have asked for a new female sentinel to cover the fact we only have the default human female. I can cross that off the list regardless of how spectacular she might or might not be.

Yes, I do admit there's an undercurrent of wanting Bioware to keep MP a gender progressive medium, but I can't help if it goes hand in hand with my more well meaning motives. In no way is it particularly feminist more than a want for women to be less rare in DLCs. Please do not berate me over this?

Bioware created and nurtured a gender equal spirit in SP, and it started with that idea in MP. I don't find it unreasonable to want them to continue on that. Do you?
It's not so much for feminism, as a sense of equality. Keeping female characters from being rare. Not dominant, just not so rare.
And yes, I do feel that the spirit of gender equality is a little lost in MP.
Again it's not the driving force of my whole attempt at more female characters. It's not some feminist agenda. It's because I care about the Mass Effect series quite a lot. It's just a coincidence I'm a female wanting more female characters sounding "feminist."
Please do not take my pink flag, and beat me over the head with it!
Also, I'm not sure why  this is "vile crap" so much as something that should be said in light of DLC trends.
Granted I did go overboard, but it is still important, no?

While a DLC of only women would assuredly help improve their variety of playstyles avaliable to the female roster, a purely female DLC isn't any more right than a DLC of no women.
I mean I'd love to say it's a fair trade for Rebellion being 0 female, nevermind this DLC which is swayed heavily out of favor of the female roster, but is it right?
Truthfully, I can't help but feel a little biased thanks to rebellion, and the fact that there's only 2 women in the entire current DLC of 16 characters. The combination of this has, indeed made me quite angry.
I do admit I do want to see the board's reaction to a Bioware MP DLC that is exclusively female, and compare vs Rebellion's reception as a matter of curiousity. It's not an important thing to me though.

Lets be real about this. While it matters to a degree what we want, Bioware makes the call like you said, but DLCs should not have a habit of swaying far out of the female roster's favor like they do.
In the end that's that problem I, and others have.
That is what makes me angry, and causes the "vile crap" of "pink flag waving" people, nevermind disgruntled people who don't like the trend just coz.

I hope I clarified things some?

[Foxtrot813]

EvanKester wrote...

Psst, thanks for writing all that, but explicit political affiliations might not be the best thing to bring into the forum. Hurts your signal to noise ratio, since you'll get people distracted by the election issues, which is really so far off topic for this thread. Dear everybody else: Please resist the temptation to jump onto an argument about presidential candidates etc.


On point: Women are severely underrepresented in media, and it's not a laughing matter. There are seriously hundreds of really good articles written about the issue every day. It's more pronounced in games, and let's face it, most of the women in games are aimed at satisfying an adolescent male sexual fantasy. Yes, especially the asari, as much as I like them. They were designed to be the "green space babes" of Mass Effect, and everything else about them came after, likely because the team at BioWare is actually intelligent and cares about these things.

I think BioWare's a decent job so far, and has been hampered more by the realities of game development than anythng else—But that's no reason not to ask them to maybe try a little harder, especially with the Mulitplayer.

Okay, I'm really trying hard to keep this reeled into the original topic, but it's becoming harder and harder and we may have to both step away from the keyboard on this one.

It is a laughing matter, because it's completely trivial. Representation in media cannot be regulated because nearly all forms of media, games included, are art. Art is not subject to the censor or societal view. As long as you're not doing anything illegal, Bioware can exclude all they want. That's not to say they are. In fact, Bioware has actually been extremely inclusive. Why? Who knows.

My point is this: No form of media owes anybody anything. This kind of "we need more gay romances for male Shepard" and "we need more girls in MP" stuff does an incredible disservice to actual activism. Feminism is actually about equality for women as citizens. Unfortunately, its public face has been watered down to this kind of silly, unimportant schtick of "women in the media" and "women vs. tropes". It serves nobody. There is not a single sensible man or woman who cares THAT MUCH about the gender of their video game character. If they do, that's on them, not the developers. Bioware already does a LOT of catering. They're already extremely sensitive for reasons I'll never understand.

The mere act of focusing on this mentally for more than a nano-second is disappointing. Any Bioware dev browsing the forums should be ignoring nonsense like this and reading the bug report and feedback topics. Those are much more worth their time than trying to appease the unappeasable. There's always *something* and indulging this kind of mentality really isn't worth the effort.

[Farosyrn]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I see rebel raven has a new account.

HA! bad joke.
I don't have a good sense of the metagame mechanics to make a DLC idea.

Also, nice to see the usual replies here from a community that supposedly doesn't care about the gender of the characters they play, and don't care about gender. *Sarcasm*
And people wonder why I'm bitter?

It's nice to see an idea like this, truthfully.

And here I always was under the impression that the whole point of feminism and stuff was to not differentiate between genders, in other words, not to care. Something is seriously twisted here.

[Grunt_Platform]

Foxtrot813 wrote...

Okay, I'm really trying hard to keep this reeled into the original topic, but it's becoming harder and harder and we may have to both step away from the keyboard on this one.

It is a laughing matter, because it's completely trivial. Representation in media cannot be regulated because nearly all forms of media, games included, are art. Art is not subject to the censor or societal view. As long as you're not doing anything illegal, Bioware can exclude all they want. That's not to say they are. In fact, Bioware has actually been extremely inclusive. Why? Who knows.

My point is this: No form of media owes anybody anything. This kind of "we need more gay romances for male Shepard" and "we need more girls in MP" stuff does an incredible disservice to actual activism. Feminism is actually about equality for women as citizens. Unfortunately, its public face has been watered down to this kind of silly, unimportant schtick of "women in the media" and "women vs. tropes". It serves nobody. There is not a single sensible man or woman who cares THAT MUCH about the gender of their video game character. If they do, that's on them, not the developers. Bioware already does a LOT of catering. They're already extremely sensitive for reasons I'll never understand.

The mere act of focusing on this mentally for more than a nano-second is disappointing. Any Bioware dev browsing the forums should be ignoring nonsense like this and reading the bug report and feedback topics. Those are much more worth their time than trying to appease the unappeasable. There's always *something* and indulging this kind of mentality really isn't worth the effort.

...You say to an animator. But yes, the general argument about women in media IS off topic, and I sadly do not have the articles handy to show you. But you should probably do some research on your own about the problems with the "This issue is too small, you should be focusing on REAL issues" line of argument.

Anyway: All the OP is about is "hey, I'd like to see more girls! Here's some ideas!" And that is simple feedback to BioWare.  It's the people saying "DON'T YOU ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH WOMEN RAARGH" who are making it an argument about feminism. It is THAT contigent that brought the whole social justice angle into this thread. The people JUSTIFYING something as simple as saying "hey, I'd like to see more X" are not the ones pulling this off topic.

I'm really really sadened that apparently to a gaming forum, "I'd like to see more women" automatically translates into a giant argument about feminism. That should say something.


So how about we talk about the actual themes of the original post, eh? How about that velocity cannon?

Modifié par EvanKester, 14 octobre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Rebel_Raven]

Farosyrn wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I see rebel raven has a new account.

HA! bad joke.
I don't have a good sense of the metagame mechanics to make a DLC idea.

Also, nice to see the usual replies here from a community that supposedly doesn't care about the gender of the characters they play, and don't care about gender. *Sarcasm*
And people wonder why I'm bitter?

It's nice to see an idea like this, truthfully.

And here I always was under the impression that the whole point of feminism and stuff was to not differentiate between genders, in other words, not to care. Something is seriously twisted here.

Well, sadly we do care about gender, and it cuts both ways. Kindly don't point the accusation of sexism at me.

Modifié par Rebel_Raven, 14 octobre 2012 - 01:17 .

[Foxtrot813]

EvanKester wrote...

So how about we talk about the actual themes of the original post, eh?

Fair enough.

Yes, I'd like even more free characters, but I don't care what gender they are and I don't know why anyone would.

There. That's my response to the OP.

[ValorOfArms777]

It's really not as necessary as you think as most females are not warlike in races example lets take the human race. most soldiers are men not women not saying there isn't women but not allot cause women are not as aggressive as men

next we have tons of females already, finnaly the only female even probable of joining up would be a turian female but they havn't even made a model of a turian female anyways notice all models of charactes we play are all revamps and mixes of armor plates and such

Salarian females are less likely cause they are matriarch and are the main thing of their egg etc. so they won't partake

Krogan females well also less likely it was also revealed that krogan females although blunt are nto aggressive jerks and are honestly the main leaders if the males wern't mostly jerkoffs and being controling and ticked

Vorcha...um yeah the one you play could be female or..male I..really don't want to think about it

there is quite a few female humans

1 of every normal human-Shadow-Demolisher thats quite abit and pretty accurate of male to female ratio in humans that are military service

baterian females... prob are similar to humans females inpossability of actions

Drell prob are lower in numbers so they can't risk their women most likely in similar fashion to salarians and krogans

the races in the top most that would end up with a female is

#1 Turian #2Krogan #3 Baterian otehr than that...I don't think you'll get a female heavy DLC and in all honesty it be sexist if a gamer only thinks about what sex their character is in this game plus not like we can see their skin etc. they wear heavy duty armor and humans are the ones that are smart enough to wear a helm for their missions (I have no idea why we don'tjsut have a helm on and off option for the non humanoid races but w/e)

[Dyssar]

Weren't the rest of the new characters for Retaliation suppose to be released over the next few weeks or did my Dishonored coma induced brain misunderstand that bit? I was so hoping to play the new asari...

[Rudest]

@EvanKester:

Fair enough. I've jumped the gun myself on another thread. This is the latest in a series of topics in a very short amount of time about this subject. And I'll admit, I myself, find this to be a touchy subject.

My life from start to now has been full of domineering, heartless, manipulative, controlling, self centered women. Not all women are that way. I know that deep down. I was left after getting injured in service to the military. I'm bitter. I'm angry. I realize this subject is about more than the trivial topic it's supposed to be about for me. I try not the generalize and stereotype. My best friend reminds me just by existing, that not all women are like that. It's a reminder I direly need.

I'm trying (failing) but trying to abstain from it. Because I know, no matter what I post, it's going to get twisted by that bitterness. I guess now, I'll refrain.

I would like to see female Turians....but because I love Turians, and the lore intrigues me. >.> More Turians the better!

[Farosyrn]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Farosyrn wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I see rebel raven has a new account.

HA! bad joke.
I don't have a good sense of the metagame mechanics to make a DLC idea.

Also, nice to see the usual replies here from a community that supposedly doesn't care about the gender of the characters they play, and don't care about gender. *Sarcasm*
And people wonder why I'm bitter?

It's nice to see an idea like this, truthfully.

And here I always was under the impression that the whole point of feminism and stuff was to not differentiate between genders, in other words, not to care. Something is seriously twisted here.

Well, sadly we do care about gender, and it cuts both ways. Kindly don't point the accusation of sexism at me.

I'm not pointing, I'm just questioning this logic - and while I d understand while you might want some more female characters, it also makes me a little sad that the issue actually seems worthy of something as drastic as your bitterness.

[Rebel_Raven]

Dyssar wrote...

Weren't the rest of the new characters for Retaliation suppose to be released over the next few weeks or did my Dishonored coma induced brain misunderstand that bit? I was so hoping to play the new asari...

Not quite sure what this has to do with the topic. o.O

Yes, the rest of retaliation are to be released over time. Bioware talks about it being one per week. 12 characters, 12 weeks, which boils down to roughly 3 months.

We have no idea which character comes next. the 2 Asari could be the next 2, or the last two released.

[Rudest]

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Dyssar wrote...

Weren't the rest of the new characters for Retaliation suppose to be released over the next few weeks or did my Dishonored coma induced brain misunderstand that bit? I was so hoping to play the new asari...

Not quite sure what this has to do with the topic. o.O

Yes, the rest of retaliation are to be released over time. Bioware talks about it being one per week. 12 characters, 12 weeks, which boils down to roughly 3 months.

We have no idea which character comes next. the 2 Asari could be the next 2, or the last two released.

If we get them based on what people have voted for in the two polls, it looks like the order would go:

Drell Infiltrator, Geth Soldier, Asari Infiltrator, Asari Sentinel

I think I recal dev mentioning they were looking into a system that would give us a say in it!

[Dyssar]

Rudest wrote...

Rebel_Raven wrote...

Dyssar wrote...

Weren't the rest of the new characters for Retaliation suppose to be released over the next few weeks or did my Dishonored coma induced brain misunderstand that bit? I was so hoping to play the new asari...

Not quite sure what this has to do with the topic. o.O

Yes, the rest of retaliation are to be released over time. Bioware talks about it being one per week. 12 characters, 12 weeks, which boils down to roughly 3 months.

We have no idea which character comes next. the 2 Asari could be the next 2, or the last two released.

If we get them based on what people have voted for in the two polls, it looks like the order would go:

Drell Infiltrator, Geth Soldier, Asari Infiltrator, Asari Sentinel

I think I recal dev mentioning they were looking into a system that would give us a say in it!

Sweet! I know it was off topic but I figured it was a little more of a "civil" off topic this thread as had. But honestly I want me a female Drell Infiltrator. Male one would be nice as well but I am insanely if the females of the Drell are how I picture them.