418 réponses à ce sujet

[IllusiveManJr]

Seagloom wrote...

The comic series no longer feels like it does. It simply goes from one horrific event to another for no other reason than to go from one horrific event to another. You can only explore the same themes so many times before it starts feeling redundant.

I stopped reading before No Way Out. Agree completely.

[Brockololly]

Seagloom wrote...
I wonder if Kirkman even has an ending in mind? After a point the comics start to read like torture porn because there isn't any end in sight. It just seems like one very long "a day in the life of..." tale gone way off the rails.

That's true. And I think Kirkman has made mention in his letters sections of the comics that he doesn't have any end in mind and that he would love it if he could just keep going forever.

Granted, I agree that post Prison, and more recently with the stuff around issue 100, the comic feels like its just sort of regurgitating material from the Prison arc and giving out brutal deaths for the sake of brutal deaths. Which is maybe the point Kirkman wants to make in his post apocalyptic world but as a reader, yes, its a bit tiresome after a while.

Seagloom wrote...
Contrast that with Telltale's excellent game that told a story, made its salient points, and wrapped it all up with a ribbon on top all while richly developing most of its cast. It felt like there was a point.

Very true- The TWD game is the best piece of TWD fiction, IMO. It has characters you actually care about and has a solid beginning, middle and end.


I guess my issue with the show is more that they're taking some elements from teh comics but not really making sense of them. Take the Prison for instance. In the comics, the Prison is sort of rehabilitated by Rick and company into an actual living space, with crops outside and people try to get some sense of normalcy. Its seens as a safe place more or less. Yet in the show, why would Rick and company want to stay there? Tyrese and his guys literally walked right in, so its not terribly secure from sneak attacks. The Governor knows where they are and easily rammed a van in, so its not secure from direct attacks. Its that sort of sloppy writing that really bugs me on the show more than anything.

[IllusiveManJr]

Go on forever? Well, I guess it could. Superhero comics have largely been doing the same thing for decades from what I understand.

[happy_daiz]

I'm curious if Tyreese and Sasha will wise up to the Governor, before it's too late. Last night's episode had me on the edge of my seat, nearly yelling at them to get out when Andrea did.

And speaking of that twit, she should have stayed to make sure the job was done. Derp.

[happy_daiz]

This whole time, I've wanted to like Andrea, but dang it, she makes it really difficult.

Modifié par happy_daiz, 18 mars 2013 - 05:20 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Season 3 (especially the later half) has been really bad, IMO.

[Megaton_Hope]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Go on forever? Well, I guess it could. Superhero comics have largely been doing the same thing for decades from what I understand.

Superheroes benefit from rules that largely protect them from harm and can be bent to return them to life, though. A zombie incursion is built around the slow and lingering deaths of the heroic characters.

You could replace people as they die off I guess, but that's got limits, and sooner or later Rick's survival becomes implausible.

[Seagloom]

Brockololly wrote...

That's true. And I think Kirkman has made mention in his letters sections of the comics that he doesn't have any end in mind and that he would love it if he could just keep going forever.

Granted, I agree that post Prison, and more recently with the stuff around issue 100, the comic feels like its just sort of regurgitating material from the Prison arc and giving out brutal deaths for the sake of brutal deaths. Which is maybe the point Kirkman wants to make in his post apocalyptic world but as a reader, yes, its a bit tiresome after a while.

Yikes. Seriously? Kirkman and I hold very different philosophies on storytelling then. I'm not going to say his desire is objectively wrong, but it's not to my tastes. I like a story with a beginning, middle, and end. Not an endless account of how a person can be worse than any monster under those circumstances. I think that message was hammered home several times already.

Brockololly wrote...

I guess my issue with the show is more that they're taking some elements from teh comics but not really making sense of them. Take the Prison for instance. In the comics, the Prison is sort of rehabilitated by Rick and company into an actual living space, with crops outside and people try to get some sense of normalcy. Its seens as a safe place more or less. Yet in the show, why would Rick and company want to stay there? Tyrese and his guys literally walked right in, so its not terribly secure from sneak attacks. The Governor knows where they are and easily rammed a van in, so its not secure from direct attacks. Its that sort of sloppy writing that really bugs me on the show more than anything.

Yeah, I think fusing the prison and Governor arc into one shorter story was a mistake. I can understand why they did it, though. After all the complaints about season two taking place almost entirely on Hershel's farm, they probably didn't want to do it again with the prison. Skipping ahead to the conflict with Woodbury gives them an excuse to use multiple locations and throw in action sequences.

As for why Rick and company would want to stay there, I think simfamSP's post covers it. It's not what it was in the comics, but the alternative is worse. They were barely scraping by when they found the prison. Going back to a life on the road is pretty slim odds without a sociopath hunting you down.

Modifié par Seagloom, 18 mars 2013 - 09:18 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Partly, I think the issue is that in the comic, they can devote any number of pages necessary to describe things to you. The show is limited to somewhat less than hour-long vignettes, each with their own self-contained story. Spending more than an episode or two on developing a particular character or setting is like spending half of a movie showing the hero eating oatmeal. It's possible, but the audience probably won't like it.

I think that if I were them, I'd have brought in some of the group's other attempts to settle down instead of some of those Hershel's Farm episodes. And probably given them a good reason to regret trying to settle on Hershel's farm two or three episodes into that. (It's really seriously exposed, even if Hershel's family hadn't been neurotically collecting walkers in the barn.) Fleeing Hershel's farm amid fire and blood would offer some pretty good reasons to be glad to find a reinforced concrete prisonfortress, even if it didn't offer chances to bathe, change clothes and eat, which were becoming fewer and far between at that point. That gated community and maybe that encounter with the cannibals would also be a good single-episode bit of foreshadowing.

As it is, they kind of have to bring in the Governor. (In terms of the major plot events, the Governor does come next after the group settles in the prison, since the Governor's interest in taking over the prison is the heart of their conflict.) I don't mind the rush, there, but I do mind the way they've tried to build up the Governor and Woodbury as a kind of Stepford version of the main group. Entirely too much focus has lingered on who and what the Governor is; by this point, narratively, in the comics, they'd already captured Rick and Michonne and forced them into the arena. Either the arena combat or the final assault on the prison ought to come up soon, because they're pretty much out of source material to mine for the prison. (They've shot their bolt on dramatically killing children, and some of the other things that happened would have required T-Dog to be Tyreese from the beginning, to build up that audience rapport.)

I feel like they kind of have to take their show back on the road. And probably the best way to handle that is to accelerate the conflict with the Governor to the breaking point ASAP. (Kind of mad they didn't when Michonne put out his eye, myself, that was promising at the time.)

[HiddenInWar]

simfamSP wrote...

Hehe, I'm betting a lot of Andrea haters are gonna get their 'fanservice.' xD

I don't understand how anyone could hate andrea 

[TEWR]

Reposting my Facebook status on last night's episode:

Hmm... this episode wasn't the best. Had its moments, but it felt kinda drawn out in a lot of places. Milton being a boss with the Walker Trailer was awesome, and the Tyreese scenes were awesome as well.

Not sure about the ending with Andrea. Seemed... maybe a tad contrived, seeing as how there are only two episodes left. Forcing a cliffhanger like that so near the end of the Governor arc -- at least I think they're going to end it this season, but who knows what AMC's up to? -- just seems shoddy.

EDIT: Doesn't help that when Andrea escaped the Governor by trying to feed him to the fishies zombies, she didn't take the Governor's car (which IIRC was still running). So it kinda made her seem incompetent.

To add to the status I just reposted, I actually have given it some thought and while Andrea is different from her comic counterpart, it's not necessarily bad. I used to take issue with her not realizing the truth, but not really these days. We, the viewers, have an omniscient view of events and more importantly already know that the guy going by the name of "The Governor" is just bad news.

But Andrea doesn't have that luxury. To her, this guy is a decent person who has built a community of survivors intent on trying to take back their society. Slowly but surely, she's seen cracks in that facade he employed, but she really wanted to believe he could be saved. It isn't until this most recent episode that she realizes he doesn't give a damn about his "goal" of saving society. He's just a megalomaniacal sociopath hellbent on exacting some sort of petty revenge that will in turn destroy both parties of survivors.

Granted, it doesn't help that everyone has been pointlessly vague on just what is the Governor's deal.

Michonne and Rick have gone "Oh you shouldn't trust this guy" but have neglected to bring up the reasons why. Rick was better, because at least his group and he said "He killed one of our own while we were just being happy."

But what about telling them how the Governor almost raped Maggie? About how he condoned the capture of Glenn and Maggie?

So really, it's not so much Andrea that's the problem. Her arc in the show is a sound idea, but the writing has sort of been pointlessly drawing this thing out for a long time and having people be vague at best on the Governor's mindset.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 mars 2013 - 08:33 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I disliked Andrea waaaaaay before the Governor showed up. I was sympathetic to her in the argument with Dale; aside from how a pistol is a pretty useful survival tool in the setting, I think that suicide is a right that it's myopic to deny somebody in such grim circumstances. However, her constant focus on her own recent loss in the midst of a world where nearly everybody known by all of these characters has been torn to shreds and eaten in the last few months, it's...well, stupid. She's traveling with people who've lost brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers and husbands and children. And whinging on about her own problems just salts the wound.

She has also contributed basically nothing to the survival needs of the group. Basically her first action once she learned to shoot was nearly killing Darryl, who's actually an effective combatant.

Her apparent need for sexual congress with psychopaths (Shane, now Phillip) isn't endearing, but it's kind of the icing on the cake. Aside from the trust I'd expect her to place in Michonne, who was the reason she was alive many times over, the tanks full of disembodied heads and the zombie child should have been dead giveaways that this guy's trouble. She knew about both those things some time back by this point.

[TEWR]

Aside from the trust I'd expect her to place in Michonne, who was the reason she was alive many times over, the tanks full of disembodied heads and the zombie child should have been dead giveaways that this guy's trouble. She knew about both those things some time back by this point.

Well, Phillip's explanation to someone who doesn't know what we know isn't too bad of one to take at face value: a way to deal with what's out there, to be prepared and not forget. It's not exactly a pleasant thing to look at or know about the guy you're sleeping with, but it's not like it's sufficient evidence to say "This guy's ****ed up."

As to his daughter, I'd note that it's not really all that different from Michonne's keeping of the two Walkers that she obviously knew before the world went to hell and that she was very attached to. Phillip was seen weeping over the "death" of his daughter, with a god damn shard of glass in his eye. So he cared about her a great deal.

It's obvious that he kept her "alive" because she's very dear to the man. It's not a sign that something is deeply wrong about the man in the sense of "Back away slowly". At most, it's "He's having trouble adjusting to this ****."

Which kinda goes to the whole "heads in tanks" explanation he gives. At least, I imagine that's what's going through Andrea's head as she recalls everything that she saw and factor's in Phillip's explanation.

If he's unable to deal with the death of his daughter and that she isn't in there anymore, the heads will help him grow to deal with it eventually. Add in Milton's research into the soul and trace amounts of it that the Governor authorizes and again, the daughter being left in a zombified state is further seen as not something to make him seem creepy and evil.

It's seen as something that shows that he wants to see if he can find his daughter in there somewhere. That he's having trouble adjusting, as most anybody would.

Like I said, we the viewers know facts that the characters aren't privy to. And like I said, most of the problems stem from the writing being poor and having people not give off the important details about the Governor. Michonne had seen the bullet holes in the convoy vehicles from the military guys that were wet with blood, yet failed to ****ing tell Andrea all that.

That would've been an eye-opener. So it's the writing of "keeping important information close to the vest for no real reason" that's the problem, not with how Andrea's been acting in general.

She has also contributed basically nothing to the survival needs of the group. Basically her first action once she learned to shoot was nearly killing Darryl, who's actually an effective combatant.

While I'll agree that she shouldn't have been hasty, to be fair she didn't know it was Daryl stumbling out. Everyone thought it was a Walker and they wanted to deal with it quietly. Save for her, because she just wants to make herself seem awesome by being able to shoot something.

Certainly, her actions there were stupid and worth some hatred.

And whinging on about her own problems just salts the wound.

My memory's shaky but how often has she actually said "I've lost my sister!" to people that haven't first inquired about her losses in this new world?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 mars 2013 - 08:12 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Around the end of season one/beginning of season two, Andrea conversations tended to revolve around her desire to die. I think there's a turn there around the episode "Chupacabra."

[Battlebloodmage]

I stop reading the comic once they killed Glenn. It was just so upsetting they way he died. Rick's portrayal in the TV series is more emotional than in the comic. I still don't understand why they add T-dog on the show without giving him any line and then just kill him out of nowhere. Asides from Maggie and Michonne, I can't stand most of the females on the show, they're too whiny. I was so relief when they finally killed off Lori, but then Andrea took her place as the annoying female of the series.

[Megaton_Hope]

I think that T-Dog was somebody's idea of an improvement to Tyreese. Just who that somebody would be and why they would think that is a mystery to me.

The replacement of T-Dog with a kind of Tyreese is, I think, even more mysterious than T-Dog's presence in the first place. Not that I mind, if they realized the mistake.

[TEWR]

I actually think it's rather idiotic of them to kill off T-Dog, only to bring Oscar into the fold, only to kill off Oscar, only to bring Tyreese into the mix, only for him to be nowhere near Rick's group when the Prison Arc seems to be coming to a close.

Apparently, the apocalypse has a one black guy limit for Rick's group.

Oscar's death was pointless back in the first half of the season, as I've no doubt said earlier in this thread months ago. T-Dog's was a good way to go, and at least they gave him more lines leading up to it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 mars 2013 - 10:48 .

[TEWR]

Arcian wrote...

Four words: Not enough Lennie James.

Dat avatar.

And agreed, we need more Duane Jones.

[happy_daiz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As to his daughter, I'd note that it's not really all that different from Michonne's keeping of the two Walkers that she obviously knew before the world went to hell and that she was very attached to.

I'm not sure about that. Michonne commented that they were barely human while they were alive.

[stonbw1]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Season 3 (especially the later half) has been really bad, IMO.

I kinda agree.  I bashed this show originally for the horrible acting, but admitted that the zombie action parts kept me around.  This half season is so dreadfully boring: I forgot this is a zombie show.  And no, its not a "character" show and if it is, it is the worst "character" show ever.  This show shines when they emphasize the survival aspects; that's what has been lacking this half-season.

[stonbw1]

simfamSP wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Hehe, I'm betting a lot of Andrea haters are gonna get their 'fanservice.' xD

I don't understand how anyone could hate andrea 

I don't mind her. I just didn't like her pretentious attitude in season 2. As for her ignorance in season 3... I think EWR got it spot on. How could we hate her for knowledge that's witheld from her? Nobody is willing to look at it from her point of view. After months in the wilderness, I can understand her denial and her loyalty to the Govenor.

But killing off Andrea would be like eliminating the loud ****y girl from the Bachelor in the first round.  It doesn't make for good t.v.  Leave her in for the fireworks.