288 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Disagreeing then agreeing in the end?

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom!

What can I say?  It's a talent.

[C9316]

jtav wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

This is an excellent thread. Jtav and Xilizhra have made some great points, although I do admit that Xilizhra seems a little too eager to assume direct control of the galaxy. Still, I'm concerned about the uncomfortably large number of Destroyers who seem utterly incapable of considering viewpoints that differ from their own.

It's one reason I think I'm heading back to Control. I don't believe violence is strength and there's a little too much glorification of killing our enemy.

I'd say there's about the same amount of glorification of kiling the Reapers as there is their glorification of killing us along with the other countless cycles of civilizations they've utterly destroyed.

Let's take the example given in game, when you encounter a fire, you don't attempt to control it, nor do you try to somehow merge yourself with it. You cannot reason with fire, you put it out plain and simple. 

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The point is that they both wanted to control the geth in ME2 (which seemed like foreshadowing that it would become an option) but instead they never even bring it up and it's as if the idea never even existed.

I'm sure it's an option in the same place where the all human council resides.

[Xilizhra]

The point is that they both wanted to control the geth in ME2 (which seemed like foreshadowing that it would become an option) but instead they never even bring it up and it's as if the idea never even existed.

Archer lost both the resources and the inclination, and Xen was probably overruled by Gerrel on the matter.

I'm sure it's an option in the same place where the all human council resides.

The land of things that never existed and are incredibly illogical in concept?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 14 octobre 2012 - 10:44 .

[MegaSovereign]

What if the Reaper cycles are part of an even bigger cycle? What if the Reapers are created every billion years out of a certain pattern that we cannot change?

What if the Crucible is used each time to kill the Reapers?

The Crucible has no beginning.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Disagreeing then agreeing in the end?

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom!

What can I say?  It's a talent.

Whew. Getting all nostalgic now, Cheez..

But seriously, were you honest about re-writing ME3 in your own fic?

[Seboist]

Xilizhra wrote...

The land of things that never existed and are incredibly illogical in concept?

Only became illogical because of the "ah yes reapers" retcon/full retardation.

[Xilizhra]

Seboist wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The land of things that never existed and are incredibly illogical in concept?

Only became illogical because of the "ah yes reapers" retcon/full retardation.

Or just you misinterpreting the ending/Udina's ambitions reaching farther than were practical. Having an all-human Council never made sense to begin with.

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Well, to be fair, an all-human Council never really made sense. Why would the Council races all be willing to give up their power to humanity?

That's no excuse for the choice over whether to let the Council die have no real effect on the game, though (along with the even worse handled Anderson/Udina choice).

They would have submitted due to fear mongering of an impending Reaper war but like I said just before "ah yes reapers" put a end to that.

Modifié par Seboist, 14 octobre 2012 - 10:49 .

[Foolsfolly]

MegaSovereign wrote...

What if the Reaper cycles are part of an even bigger cycle? What if the Reapers are created every billion years out of a certain pattern that we cannot change?

What if the Crucible is used each time to kill the Reapers?

The Crucible has no beginning.

Honestly, back when I was first playing the game I kept thinking the Crucible was a Reaper trap like the Citadel or Mass Relays. I wanted an option for my Shepard to ask Liara "Are you sure it's Prothean and not Reaper tech? No one knows who made this thing."

I thought perhaps it was a waste of time and resources thrown in a last ditch effort to defeat the Reapers... with a defunct weapon that would never work. But it would bankrupt entire species and keep people too busy building it instead of finding an actual weakness to the Reapers.

...Turns out it wasn't a Reaper trap. Although the Catalyst apparently liked it because it allowed for Synthesis... which makes you wonder why don't the Reaper call off their harvesting and use force synthesis on everyone now that they know the Crucible allows for that?

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Whew. Getting all nostalgic now, Cheez..

But seriously, were you honest about re-writing ME3 in your own fic?

If I have time.  It'd be a massive undertaking, and I'd probably only work on bits and pieces here and there.  So I may never get around to actually finishing it.

It will include (among other things):

- Miranda as a squadmate (for Cerberus intel and insider perspective)
- More depth in character from the VS (Ashley, in this case)
- Liara as an effective Shadow Broker
- More personal growth for all squadmates
- Harbinger as a primary antagonist
- Removal of stupid dream sequences
- Dramatic alteration of Catalyst
- TIM acting under his own will (not indoctrinated)
- Removal of Kai Leng
- More depth and tighter adherance to canon in the construction of the Crucible
- Priority: Earth revamp with additional squadmate participation
- Jacob does something badass and stops being a racial stereotype
- Altered purpose of Reapers
- Return of key plot elements in ME1 and 2
- More emphasis on Shepard's cybernetics/possible indoctrination/exposure to Prothean Beacon
- Completely different ending that reinforces core themes of trilogy
- Implied Javik romance because I can

It's basically me changing all the stuff I don't like because I'm a selfish brat with spare time and a keyboard.

[Xilizhra]

- Completely different ending that reinforces core themes of trilogy

Strictly speaking, the ending as-is does this, with the exception of Synthesis coming out of nowhere. The presentation of the Catalyst isn't that good, but the endings themselves are fine, though they could use more polish and foreshadowing in the case of Control/Synthesis.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Whew. Getting all nostalgic now, Cheez..

But seriously, were you honest about re-writing ME3 in your own fic?

If I have time.  It'd be a massive undertaking, and I'd probably only work on bits and pieces here and there.  So I may never get around to actually finishing it.

It will include (among other things):

- Miranda as a squadmate (for Cerberus intel and insider perspective)
- More depth in character from the VS (Ashley, in this case)
- Liara as an effective Shadow Broker
- More personal growth for all squadmates
- Harbinger as a primary antagonist
- Removal of stupid dream sequences
- Dramatic alteration of Catalyst
- TIM acting under his own will (not indoctrinated)
- Removal of Kai Leng
- More depth and tighter adherance to canon in the construction of the Crucible
- Priority: Earth revamp with additional squadmate participation
- Jacob does something badass and stops being a racial stereotype
- Altered purpose of Reapers
- Return of key plot elements in ME1 and 2
- More emphasis on Shepard's cybernetics/possible indoctrination/exposure to Prothean Beacon
- Completely different ending that reinforces core themes of trilogy
- Implied Javik romance because I can

A few things.

-If you abseloutly need someone to attack Shepard on Sur'Kesh, trying to kill Eve, have it the Reapers themselves. Cerberus wanting Eve dead runs completely contary to what we learned in ME2 (same goes for using that turian bomb).

- If you abseloutly need Cerberus trying to assasinate the council. Have a plot twist during the Cerberus HQ mission reveal that they failed the coup on purpose, the attack was nothing more than TIM wanting to scare the asari and salarians into providing more support to the Alliance by having the war show up close and personal on the Citadel.

You have some interesting concepts, I would not mind test reading.

But this is getting dangerously off-topic, if you wish to continue discussing we could just have a PM conversation or something.

It's basically me changing all the stuff I don't like because I'm a selfish brat with spare time and a keyboard.

And there is nothing wrong with that, I came up with my own reason for why TIM lies about Liara in the start in ME2.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Strictly speaking, the ending as-is does this, with the exception of Synthesis coming out of nowhere. The presentation of the Catalyst isn't that good, but the endings themselves are fine, though they could use more polish and foreshadowing in the case of Control/Synthesis.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I meant the ending AFTER the choice is made.  The cinematics are they were lacked a personal connection.  I was going to delete the Stargazer scene and put a conversation between surviving characters in its place.  A reflective, hopeful look into the future as opposed to "what did I just watch."

As I said previously in this thread, Control and Destroy still work after a little narrative brush-up.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

A few things.

-If you abseloutly need someone to attack Shepard on Sur'Kesh, trying to kill Eve, have it the Reapers themselves. Cerberus wanting Eve dead runs completely contary to what we learned in ME2 (same goes for using that turian bomb).

You got it.  Cerberus is going to be up to shenanigans far more relevant to TIM's plans.  The Reapers have enough mindless mooks, and Cerberus has its own agenda.

- If you abseloutly need Cerberus trying to assasinate the council. Have a plot twist during the Cerberus HQ mission reveal that they failed the coup on purpose, the attack was nothing more than TIM wanting to scare the asari and salarians into providing more support to the Alliance by having the war show up close and personal on the Citadel.

That's a good idea.  I'm going to have to go through the game again to get a handle on all the stuff that needs to go where.  A lot of it's fuzzy right now (thanks to intentional repression).

You have some interesting concepts, I would not mind test reading.

But this is getting dangerously off-topic, if you wish to continue discussing we could just have a PM conversation or something.

Um, yeah.  Good point.  Sorry, thread.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Strictly speaking, the ending as-is does this, with the exception of Synthesis coming out of nowhere. The presentation of the Catalyst isn't that good, but the endings themselves are fine, though they could use more polish and foreshadowing in the case of Control/Synthesis.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I meant the ending AFTER the choice is made.  The cinematics are they were lacked a personal connection.  I was going to delete the Stargazer scene and put a conversation between surviving characters in its place.  A reflective, hopeful look into the future as opposed to "what did I just watch."

As I said previously in this thread, Control and Destroy still work after a little narrative brush-up.

Ah, fair enough. That could work well.
I think you could also work on Synthesis.

[knightnblu]

There is a whole lot of philosophizing and theory making going on here. While I don't mind talking about meta-ethics or military philosophy, it really isn't necessary. The argument for the destruction of the Reapers is far simpler and much more visceral than that. In short, the Reapers have it coming.
 
For millions of years the Reapers have violated the natural order and snuffed out life in some bizarre experiment in search of some insane quest. The AI that is the Catalyst went nuts and forced it's own creators into Reaper form becoming that which it was supposed to prevent in its betrayal. From that point forward it has experimented upon the lives of the galaxy in pursuit of it's mad ideas about life and synthetics.
 
Consider the case of the child who perished at the opening of ME3 while Shepard watched from the Normandy. He was about six or seven, he was terrified, he didn't understand what was going on or why he was being attacked and his life was snuffed out with no more thought than one would give to killing a cockroach. How many innocents perished in much the same manner in that cycle? How many Turian children? How many Asari children? How many in previous cycles? Billions? Trillions? Scores of trillions?
 
We will never know the number, but it is more than the human mind is capable of calculating and comprehending. How many just civilizations were exterminated merely because they had advanced? How many sentient beings witnessed and experienced the horrors of being rendered into a Reaper? By my estimation, the Reaper cycles have been going on for more than 672 cycles and that number is likely very low for the total number of extinctions that the Reapers have authored.
 
Even at that exquisitely low estimate, the number of dead is around 9.405 x 10^9 lives lost due to the madness of one insane AI and his little helpers. That is just 37 million years of reapings. It is likely that the Reaping has been going on for far longer. So take that little boy's terror and multiply it by 9.405 x 10^9 and you can begin to get an appreciation for the crimes of the Reapers.
 
It is far worse than the devastation seen on Earth or Palavan, or Thessia. It is far worse than anything our human comprehension is even capable of understanding. If you can conceive of that fact, then you really only have one choice and that is to end the bastards and the reason that this is so is for justice.
 
Justice for those who lived in terror until they were exterminated. Justice for the families that were torn apart and slaughtered. Justice for the children who did not understand why the Reapers were destroying their parents, their friends, or themselves. How the Catalyst can stand there with a straight face and say that he and his minions have no interest in war without cracking a smile is beyond me. But even war is far less destructive than what he does and it kills far fewer people. Even Mengele wasn't as cold hearted as the Catalyst is in the prosecution of his extermination cycles. He was a machine that was created to establish peace and the peace that he established was that of the grave for scores of trillions over countless cycles.
 
While there are arguments against synthesis and control from ethical and trust perspectives, ultimately the reason that neither of these are valid choices is because they deny justice to scores of trillions of slain. It lets the Reapers get off of crimes so vile and putrid that no organic has ever been capable doing the same. Sooner or later an organic would tire of the slaughter because we can only hold on to hatred for so long and once our blindness to the suffering we have caused wore off we would relent. The Catalyst never relented over millions of years and perhaps even billions.
 
That is why destroy is the only option and it is because the Reapers need killing. They have it coming and anything less just spits in the face of the trillions of souls lost to an insane AI.
 
That's my .02.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah, fair enough. That could work well.
I think you could also work on Synthesis.

I think Synthesis is going to be the "final temptation," something the Reapers throw at Shepard to trick her into suicide.  I'm going to use indoctrination as a plot device, but it won't be as heavy as IT theory.  IT theory takes it a bit too far.

But seriously, how long was Shepard unconscious next to Object Rho?  Cheesey plot device, yes, but it's a more powerful personal struggle than "awww dat poor kiddie 'sploded and it makes me sad."

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah, fair enough. That could work well.
I think you could also work on Synthesis.

I think Synthesis is going to be the "final temptation," something the Reapers throw at Shepard to trick her into suicide.  I'm going to use indoctrination as a plot device, but it won't be as heavy as IT theory.  IT theory takes it a bit too far.

But seriously, how long was Shepard unconscious next to Object Rho?  Cheesey plot device, yes, but it's a more powerful personal struggle than "awww dat poor kiddie 'sploded and it makes me sad."

What!? you had like, 2 lines of dialogue with that kid, that is a serious personal connection.

[Xilizhra]

There is a whole lot of philosophizing and theory making going on here. While I don't mind talking about meta-ethics or military philosophy, it really isn't necessary. The argument for the destruction of the Reapers is far simpler and much more visceral than that. In short, the Reapers have it coming.

I don't believe in visceral arguments being used to determine anything. Pure emotion is useless for this sort of decision.

While there are arguments against synthesis and control from ethical and trust perspectives, ultimately the reason that neither of these are valid choices is because they deny justice to scores of trillions of slain. It lets the Reapers get off of crimes so vile and putrid that no organic has ever been capable doing the same. Sooner or later an organic would tire of the slaughter because we can only hold on to hatred for so long and once our blindness to the suffering we have caused wore off we would relent. The Catalyst never relented over millions of years and perhaps even billions.

Maybe this would matter if the Reapers had any freedom to choose not to do any of this, but they didn't. They were only tools of the Catalyst. And the Catalyst is killed in all three endings. So there, you won, you have your revenge, congratulations.

I think Synthesis is going to be the "final temptation," something the Reapers throw at Shepard to trick her into suicide. I'm going to use indoctrination as a plot device, but it won't be as heavy as IT theory. IT theory takes it a bit too far.

Please don't. This is just annoying when people try to wholly invalidate a valid philosophy.

[Steelcan]

I'm back..........

@Knighnblu, you are right in regards to the justice aspect of destroy over the other endings, but even beyond that there is a moral argument for it, and a logical one for destroy. Synthesis and control are morally abhorrent and a compromise with the reapers, there is no reason to pick them