288 réponses à ce sujet

[Sonashi]

Xilizhra wrote...


Mind control is both a lesser evil and temporary, unlike death.

That's your point of view. Well, if you that afraid of death, choose Synthesis (Kasumi's boyfriend is a good example). In my opinion, death isn't just the end. It's the beginning of something greater. But that's just my opinion. We have different moral values and that's ok. But I'm afraid that our discussion is rather pointless now. I'm sorry jtav that your thread is partially ruined coz of my off topic posts.

Stay safe Xilizhra. Stay safe everyone.

[AlanC9]

Steelcan wrote...
 They know what they are doing, they just think it's right, they have free will, it's just being twisted by the catalyst

So they have free will , but they're made to want to do what the Catalyst wants them to do. What's "free" about that?

[Argolas]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

At least you have such a power to change that. I prefer my galaxy being free of any overlord who decides what is <airquote> the best for the galaxy </airquote>. 

That might be nice, but there's no way to get there without genocide or Synthesis, which while I don't think is necessarily terrible, I'm undecided on my feelings for. Control seems like the least bad option.

I know, that's why imo, choosing one ending is such a hard choice (at least for me). You treat Geth as a living creatures so you can't wipe them out - understandable. You consider the Reapers as a living creatures too, so why you're not treating them like one. You're ok with mind control - that I can't understand. Every single life being deserves respect, dignity, peace. By choosing Control, you're denying that.

Mind control is both a lesser evil and temporary, unlike death.

Mind control is one of the worst things there are. The terror that you might be forced to act against your morals can be far worse than death, this includes the fear that you might harm those who are important to you. EDI expresses that once, too: If she is captured, she will self-destruct rather than becoming rewritten. The same is right for Organics: When Saren (the main Synthesis supporter) and TIM (the main Control supporter) realize that they are indocrinated, they choose suicide. So you may say death is worse, the victims themselves disagree.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The reapers are not worthy of sympath, pity, or mercy. They would not hesitate to eradicate all organic life, we should not hesitate to wipe out all reapers

And that is the attitude that is slowly pushing me back to Control.

. That's just one reason.  I have plenty of others, self determination, free will etc....

[Xilizhra]

Mind control is one of the worst things there are. The terror that you might be forced to act against your morals can be far worse than death, this includes the fear that you might harm those who are important to you. EDI expresses that once, too: If she is captured, she will self-destruct rather than becoming rewritten. The same is right for Organics: When Saren (the main Synthesis supporter) and TIM (the main Control supporter) realize that they are indocrinated, they choose suicide. So you may say death is worse, the victims themselves disagree.

The problem with indoctrination is that it's irreversible, and the Reapers aren't inclined to reverse it. At that point, it can become worse than death if you begin harming your own people. Rewriting the geth heretics, on the other hand, is the Paragon option. And the Reapers have nothing to be turned against, hence no real fear of falling to more mind control now that their previous, destructive one has been ended. It's a step up from the Catalyst, at any rate.

[o Ventus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

At least you have such a power to change that. I prefer my galaxy being free of any overlord who decides what is <airquote> the best for the galaxy </airquote>. 

That might be nice, but there's no way to get there without genocide or Synthesis, which while I don't think is necessarily terrible, I'm undecided on my feelings for. Control seems like the least bad option.

I know, that's why imo, choosing one ending is such a hard choice (at least for me). You treat Geth as a living creatures so you can't wipe them out - understandable. You consider the Reapers as a living creatures too, so why you're not treating them like one. You're ok with mind control - that I can't understand. Every single life being deserves respect, dignity, peace. By choosing Control, you're denying that.

Mind control is both a lesser evil and temporary, unlike death.

How is mind control temporary? Did the Catalyst ever give the Reapers coffee breaks? Did the Reapers ever let indoctrinated people go and play before going back to being insane?

Lesser evil? It's slavery, don't even try to sugarcoat it.

Modifié par o Ventus, 14 octobre 2012 - 03:43 .

[Xilizhra]

How is mind control temporary? Did the Catalyst ever give the Reapers coffee breaks? Did the Reapers ever let indoctrinated people go and play before going back to being insane?

Lesser evil? It's slavery, don't even try to sugarcoat it.

It's better than death. And I can end it at any time, and I will, for those Reapers who won't be threats to the rest of the galaxy free.

[o Ventus]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is mind control temporary? Did the Catalyst ever give the Reapers coffee breaks? Did the Reapers ever let indoctrinated people go and play before going back to being insane?

Lesser evil? It's slavery, don't even try to sugarcoat it.

It's better than death. And I can end it at any time, and I will, for those Reapers who won't be threats to the rest of the galaxy free.

You can end it... How? By killing them? Otherwise, the Reapers are machines designed to fulfill a singular purpose.

And how is stripping someone/something of free will better than death? The person might be "alive" in a physical sense, but they aren't "living".

[Aaleel]

Xilizhra wrote...

How is mind control temporary? Did the Catalyst ever give the Reapers coffee breaks? Did the Reapers ever let indoctrinated people go and play before going back to being insane?

Lesser evil? It's slavery, don't even try to sugarcoat it.

It's better than death. And I can end it at any time, and I will, for those Reapers who won't be threats to the rest of the galaxy free.

When someone else said they would rather be dead then have their mind trapped in a reaper, you said maybe those minds should decide for themselves.

But NOW it's OK to say I know what's best for them.  You sound like a dictator already.  I'll decide what's best for the reapers, earlier on you said I'll decide what's best for the galaxy.   Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Modifié par Aaleel, 14 octobre 2012 - 03:54 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i used to pick destroy.

untill i learned how to head canon.

[Steelcan]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i used to pick destroy.

untill i learned how to head canon.

. You misspelled arrow in the knee

[shepskisaac]

The positive reason to pick Destroy, without meta-gaming and from Shep's perspective is that it's the most 'sure to work' one. Think about it, you're standing there, with a hologram AI who created the Reapers. Disregarding IT and any other theories, how could Shep know he's not being tricked? What if there's no Synthesis at all and he will just get turned into pieces when he jumps into the beam? At least with Destroy he was told by scientists that it should work.

[AlanC9]

But if you're worried about being tricked, how do you know that the Red option is Destroy in the first place?

[Steelcan]

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you're worried about being tricked, how do you know that the Red option is Destroy in the first place?

. Good point, but I think it is safe to assume that the catalyst is not switching the options around

[shepskisaac]

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you're worried about being tricked, how do you know that the Red option is Destroy in the first place?

You don't. But in worst case, shooting the power tube does seem like a good way to start some blowing up, hopefully causing some reaction regardless of what the AI says.

Good point though and I think many people don't realize in what situation/position Shep was. There he was on the Citadel unknowing how to fire up the Crucible. Majority of his questions to the Catalyst are not because "he's submitting to his will & opinions", but because he's askign and trying to get an answer what to do to fire the Crucible.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 14 octobre 2012 - 04:29 .

[Xilizhra]

You can end it... How? By killing them? Otherwise, the Reapers are machines designed to fulfill a singular purpose.

Releasing control.

But NOW it's OK to say I know what's best for them. You sound like a dictator already. I'll decide what's best for the reapers, earlier on you said I'll decide what's best for the galaxy. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As I said, it's temporary. This, unlike death, is a state that can end. I don't actually know that the Reapers won't have some hostile members anyway, and Control is a safe way to ascertain that while I'm capable of bringing about galactic peace.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can end it... How? By killing them? Otherwise, the Reapers are machines designed to fulfill a singular purpose.

Releasing control.

But NOW it's OK to say I know what's best for them. You sound like a dictator already. I'll decide what's best for the reapers, earlier on you said I'll decide what's best for the galaxy. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As I said, it's temporary. This, unlike death, is a state that can end. I don't actually know that the Reapers won't have some hostile members anyway, and Control is a safe way to ascertain that while I'm capable of bringing about galactic peace.

. If the reapers are all indoctrinated then why should we trust them to act reasonably outside of catalyst control?

[Vigilant111]

AlanC9 wrote...

But if you're worried about being tricked, how do you know that the Red option is Destroy in the first place?

@People posted to respond to this point: how is this even a good point? and this has been here for months now

Well, you are kinda ran out of options aren't you? 50% chance the Catalyst lies, 50% chance its telling the truth, so you take the gamble, just because you choose destroy does not mean you trust it, you can choose to trust Hackett aka your people instead

[Xilizhra]

. If the reapers are all indoctrinated then why should we trust them to act reasonably outside of catalyst control?

When the control is gone, they'll no longer be indoctrinated.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

. If the reapers are all indoctrinated then why should we trust them to act reasonably outside of catalyst control?

When the control is gone, they'll no longer be indoctrinated.

. But indoctrination is not curable, so how does it just stop?

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

. If the reapers are all indoctrinated then why should we trust them to act reasonably outside of catalyst control?

When the control is gone, they'll no longer be indoctrinated.

. But indoctrination is not curable, so how does it just stop?

It was stopped for Shiala. It could probably be cured altogether with precision brain surgery, which would be rather easier to perform on the Reapers when you're an incredibly powerful computer.

[Aaleel]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can end it... How? By killing them? Otherwise, the Reapers are machines designed to fulfill a singular purpose.

Releasing control.

But NOW it's OK to say I know what's best for them. You sound like a dictator already. I'll decide what's best for the reapers, earlier on you said I'll decide what's best for the galaxy. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

As I said, it's temporary. This, unlike death, is a state that can end. I don't actually know that the Reapers won't have some hostile members anyway, and Control is a safe way to ascertain that while I'm capable of bringing about galactic peace.

How can you ascertain a reapers intentions as long as you're controlling it.  You won't actually know until you let it go.  Then it's too late.

[Xilizhra]

How can you ascertain a reapers intentions as long as you're controlling it. You won't actually know until you let it go. Then it's too late.

Well, I could blow it up with my other Reapers if necessary. However, I'm fairly sure I can read their minds and discern their base nature.

[MegaSovereign]

o Ventus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sonashi wrote...

At least you have such a power to change that. I prefer my galaxy being free of any overlord who decides what is <airquote> the best for the galaxy </airquote>. 

That might be nice, but there's no way to get there without genocide or Synthesis, which while I don't think is necessarily terrible, I'm undecided on my feelings for. Control seems like the least bad option.

I know, that's why imo, choosing one ending is such a hard choice (at least for me). You treat Geth as a living creatures so you can't wipe them out - understandable. You consider the Reapers as a living creatures too, so why you're not treating them like one. You're ok with mind control - that I can't understand. Every single life being deserves respect, dignity, peace. By choosing Control, you're denying that.

Mind control is both a lesser evil and temporary, unlike death.

How is mind control temporary? Did the Catalyst ever give the Reapers coffee breaks? Did the Reapers ever let indoctrinated people go and play before going back to being insane?

Lesser evil? It's slavery, don't even try to sugarcoat it.

But they're....Reapers.

[Urdnot Amenark]

I chose Destroy for Anderson and never regretted it.