442 réponses à ce sujet

[ka243]

Let me just say that i really liked the old firebase white. This change sucks. There are classes that are made for a camping style of play like the salarian engineer. Nobody uses them anymore at all since the change since there are no longer any good czmping maps which is all this kit was good at. I miss it.

[Arctican]

ReverendBeast wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Connection isn't the best problem overall. For me it is, so if you tell me to host, I can't. So I was stuck with FBWGG more so than people with the ability to host. I didn't mind much as I would back out, but like I said before, there are days when I would join FBWGG lobby again and again as I searched for UUG. 

But Bioware is not making the changes for me. They're simply adding variety to a map which basically only had one tactic. Do you not agree that if you play that consistently for 4 months, gameplay does get stale? The new changes doesn't eliminate camping because it is still easy to do. It just requires an approach that most people have not gotten used to yet. The new design also gives rise to a mix of camping and RGing. You camp when the situation calls for it and RG when camping is no longer safe. 

BW is making the changes because they wanted to end camping period.  Anything else is really not born out by the facts of the game change mechanics... Again it goes back to this whole "Campers are low life" and "they ruin my game" meme...  It bothered you because your connection is poor and you could not make your own room or was it because camping was not your style of play???  The first is on you,(get a better connection) the second is your choice of game play. I should not have to alter my farming style to satisy your play style choices.  See my point???  

They want to end camping as the ONLY tactic FBWGG. Like I said, the new map does not eliminate camping. For example, you can camp at the open area behind the original camping room. But now, there are other viable alternatives, to both camping or to RGing.

Sadly, my university cannot upgrade my dorm connection simply because I want to host my very own mass effect lobbies. So I work with what I got. Also, I'm sure not everyone has the luxury to have good hosting connection. 

As for the second point, there are times when I'm very happy to camp and shoot fishes in the barrel. However, I rather it not be on FBWGG all the time. I would like to camp on other maps like Rio, Dagger, Giant, etc. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

[nicethugbert]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

The layout changes to Firebase White were made (at my personal request) to address camping, not farming. Farming has never been an issue.

Did the campers contact BW ask BW to get rid of camping because their own choosen behavior was ruining their own fun?

[ElectroNeonPanda]

If the intention of these aggressive changes were to alienate a large percentage of your playerbase and reduce their desire to log on - let alone play - then bravo Bioware and Mr Hendriks, you succeeded admirably. If, however, this was motivated by the higher ups wanting you to force more people to take the easiest option of using RL money in the Store then shame on you and I hope the falling player numbers give you a much-needed lesson on how to treat your playerbase.

[Malanek]

I like the new version of the map. It's much more interesting.

[ReverendBeast]

Arctican wrote...

ReverendBeast wrote...

Arctican wrote...

Connection isn't the best problem overall. For me it is, so if you tell me to host, I can't. So I was stuck with FBWGG more so than people with the ability to host. I didn't mind much as I would back out, but like I said before, there are days when I would join FBWGG lobby again and again as I searched for UUG. 

But Bioware is not making the changes for me. They're simply adding variety to a map which basically only had one tactic. Do you not agree that if you play that consistently for 4 months, gameplay does get stale? The new changes doesn't eliminate camping because it is still easy to do. It just requires an approach that most people have not gotten used to yet. The new design also gives rise to a mix of camping and RGing. You camp when the situation calls for it and RG when camping is no longer safe. 

BW is making the changes because they wanted to end camping period.  Anything else is really not born out by the facts of the game change mechanics... Again it goes back to this whole "Campers are low life" and "they ruin my game" meme...  It bothered you because your connection is poor and you could not make your own room or was it because camping was not your style of play???  The first is on you,(get a better connection) the second is your choice of game play. I should not have to alter my farming style to satisy your play style choices.  See my point???  

They want to end camping as the ONLY tactic FBWGG. Like I said, the new map does not eliminate camping. For example, you can camp at the open area behind the original camping room. But now, there are other viable alternatives, to both camping or to RGing.

Sadly, my university cannot upgrade my dorm connection simply because I want to host my very own mass effect lobbies. So I work with what I got. Also, I'm sure not everyone has the luxury to have good hosting connection. 

As for the second point, there are times when I'm very happy to camp and shoot fishes in the barrel. However, I rather it not be on FBWGG all the time. I would like to camp on other maps like Rio, Dagger, Giant, etc. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

See that's were the rub comes in... Camping was not the only tactic on FBW you could Run and Gun till your hearts content if you wish...  Heck, you could stay outside the room even if the other players choose to be inside no???  No game mechanics were changed to make that extremely difficult was there???  No bud, try and couch it a million ways from Sunday at it still boils down to "RGL players are the best" and "campers are low lifes"...   Look, I went through University when you had to use punch cards to input programs, so I feel ya Bro...  But if your connection is poor and you found it hard to start your own room is not really a basis to complain about the problems you had...  You limited the game by having a sub par connection and not having the ability to create your own room...  That makes it okay to alter the game mechanics???  I think not...

[Old Books]

ManUnderMask wrote...

In all honesty I think the changes were done to try and get more people to spend real money gambling in the store. FBW was an easy way to circumvent that and Bioware finally did away with it. As soon as other camping points on other maps become popular I bet Bioware will swoop in and eliminate those too.

That said, I like the changes to the map, I just wish Bioware would remember that this is a cover based shooter and if they want to turn it into a run and gun they need to adjust the damage levels accordingly.

Yep, in all these types of threads, i.e. about why BW makes a certain change, someone eventually hits the nail on the head. BW is protecting its money generating store; thats their perogative, but please don't try and tell me it was for the benefit of game balance or because people couldn't get another match in PUGs. I really like the new FBW but the campers/farmers were not nearly as much of a problem as folks on here would have you believe.

[Malanek]

Old Books wrote...
Yep, in all these types of threads, i.e. about why BW makes a certain change, someone eventually hits the nail on the head. BW is protecting its money generating store; thats their perogative, but please don't try and tell me it was for the benefit of game balance or because people couldn't get another match in PUGs. I really like the new FBW but the campers/farmers were not nearly as much of a problem as folks on here would have you believe.

I think it was for game balance. The real issue is that to me it felt like an exploit of the games AI, where nothing was able to flank you. Thats not a healthy game.

[ParatrooperSean]

Old Books wrote...

ManUnderMask wrote...

In all honesty I think the changes were done to try and get more people to spend real money gambling in the store. FBW was an easy way to circumvent that and Bioware finally did away with it. As soon as other camping points on other maps become popular I bet Bioware will swoop in and eliminate those too.

That said, I like the changes to the map, I just wish Bioware would remember that this is a cover based shooter and if they want to turn it into a run and gun they need to adjust the damage levels accordingly.

Yep, in all these types of threads, i.e. about why BW makes a certain change, someone eventually hits the nail on the head. BW is protecting its money generating store; thats their perogative, but please don't try and tell me it was for the benefit of game balance or because people couldn't get another match in PUGs. I really like the new FBW but the campers/farmers were not nearly as much of a problem as folks on here would have you believe.

I actually pointed this out already.

- Increase difficulty (people fail more often or play on lower difficulty) = less credits and use more consumables
- Prevent farming = less credits and use more consumables
- Add gear that increases consumable capacity = use more consumables

They're a business. They have to earn a profit somehow, so I think people will understand. So come on, just be upfront about it.


-

[DarthSliver]

I like the new setup, camping is still there but you cant camp in one spot like other maps. They made it easier to bail out of the area when it starts to get over run and suchs. Everyone whining just dont see that camping is fine, just now you gotta move your camp to a different location from time to time which is actually fine with me since objectives would sometime mess the camping idea up from time to time. objectives were always the hardest because you had to move location to complete them then get back to the spot when done.

[Asebstos]

I really can't believe that there are actually people complaining about the change to FBW.

[ReverendBeast]

ElectroNeonPanda wrote...

If the intention of these aggressive changes were to alienate a large percentage of your playerbase and reduce their desire to log on - let alone play - then bravo Bioware and Mr Hendriks, you succeeded admirably. If, however, this was motivated by the higher ups wanting you to force more people to take the easiest option of using RL money in the Store then shame on you and I hope the falling player numbers give you a much-needed lesson on how to treat your playerbase.

 Youch!  I didn't even want to go there as the CHA CHING! aspect of the RNG is a true unkown, as EA would consider that compay private info...  I have to take Jos at his word and the reason he put forth the changes were to end camping.. Which I believe is a misguided point of view and really disinfranchises the views and feelings of a part of the player community to satisfy another vocal minority...  What campers money does not spend the same as the RGLers??? 

[Ashen One]

To answer the question asked in the thread title:

Yes.

[ReverendBeast]

Malanek999 wrote...

Old Books wrote...
Yep, in all these types of threads, i.e. about why BW makes a certain change, someone eventually hits the nail on the head. BW is protecting its money generating store; thats their perogative, but please don't try and tell me it was for the benefit of game balance or because people couldn't get another match in PUGs. I really like the new FBW but the campers/farmers were not nearly as much of a problem as folks on here would have you believe.

I think it was for game balance. The real issue is that to me it felt like an exploit of the games AI, where nothing was able to flank you. Thats not a healthy game.

In my times running Plat, you would always get flanked by a enemies coming in the back door so I can't agree with you there...  Game balance you say???  Like last weeks "balance changes" weren't enough already???  Nope, yet another line of reasoning predicated on the failed arguement that camping was a game exploit...

[ManUnderMask]

ReverendBeast wrote...
What campers money does not spend the same as the RGLers??? 

The thing was that they were earning in game credits not spending real money. I've almost unlocked everything and I did it without spending real  money. To Bioware/EA, this was an hole that needed to be plugged.

THQ tried to do the same thing in UFC Undisputed 3 by limiting the attribute points so that a CAF was largely useless or incredibly one dimension without 1) going through a 10+ hour career mode or 2)spending three bucks a pop on a CAF stat booster.

They did this knowing that most players who wanted a bunch of fleshed out, realistic CAFs would most likely not spend 10 hours a CAF in career mode (equally to about 400 hours for 40 CAFS) and would instead spend the money (equal to an extra 120 dollars on top of the 60 already paid for the game). Luckily a glitch was discovered that allowed you to copy your career CAF. This was the only thing THQ revealed as being fixed in the non existant patch they say they're still working on. Why is this an issue? Players don't need to spend real money.

Same with Mass Effect multiplayer. An easy way around spending real money was discovered and Bioware/EA had to make sure that didn't happen. THQ is almost bankrupt, and from my understanding EA isn't doing too hot either. Gee, I WONDER WHY?

Modifié par ManUnderMask, 14 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .

[Trogdorx]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

The layout changes to Firebase White were made (at my personal request) to address camping, not farming. Farming has never been an issue.

Please explain why you feel you need to address camping. You (BW) give us all these different guns and classes, giving us the impression that you intend for there to be a variety of playstyles. And then you go and say stuff like this, and implement new features that are designed specifically to discourage a certain playstyle.

Why bother with sniper rifles and classes like the Demolisher then, Jos? Why put that stuff in the game if you don't want people to camp?

Furthermore, how can you say farming hasn't been an issue? From what I've read in this forum over the weeks preceding the last DLC, the problem people had with FBW campers was not that they were camping. Rather, that they were just seeing it too often; people seeking matches on other maps were having trouble finding matches that weren't FBWG. So, it sounds like you're pushing the game's development in a direction you like, regardless of what the community wants. Rather than providing incentive for people to play other maps, you just made the map that people currently wanted to play harder, and therefore less popular.

Wouldn't it have been better to, say, incentivize people to play random maps and enemies with bonus credits, rather than peeing in the campers' cereal?

[clarkusdarkus]

i thought the whole point of a sniper is to camp anyway and not run around on platinum, seems there trying to burn the candle at both ends.

closing off the room on giant is petty as objectives meant campers had to leave the room anyway and whats wrong in funneling the enemy on platinum.

ahh well Halo 4 and Black ops are out soon so i'll get annoyed at 13yr old americans on there instead of grinding a horde mode and being punished for not buying packs and playing smart.

[ReverendBeast]

ManUnderMask wrote...

ReverendBeast wrote...
What campers money does not spend the same as the RGLers??? 

The thing was that they were earning in game credits not spending real money. I've almost unlocked everything and I did it without spending real  money. To Bioware/EA, this was an hole that needed to be plugged.

THQ tried to do the same thing in UFC Undisputed 3 by limiting the attribute points so that a CAF was largely useless or incredibly one dimension without 1) going through a 10+ career mode or 2)spending four bucks a pop on a CAF stat booster.

They did this knowing that most players who wanted a bunch of fleshed out, realistic CAFs would most likely not spend 10 hours a CAF in career mode and would instead spend the money. Luckily a glitch was discovered that allowed you to copy your career CAF. This was the only thing THQ revealed as being fixed in the non existant patch they say they're still working on. Why is this an issue? Players don't need to spend real money.

Same with Mass Effect multiplayer. An easy way around spending real money was discovered and Bioware/EA had to make sure that didn't happen. THQ is almost bankrupt, and from my understanding EA isn't doing too hot either. Gee, I WONDER WHY?

I am being more generous than that... Jos has stated on this thread and on another thread dealing with snipers that th reason the changes werre made is that players were not taking advantage of various features on the maps...  Obviously this was disconcerting to him and basically he staed in the other thread that (paraphrasing) "this is what I am doing you may not like it, but this is what I am doing"   Can I bring up the original SP ending as misguded decision here???

It just smacks me of catering to a vocal minority and a complete disregard of the opinion of a segment of the player base...  I mean we're not talking missle glitching or credit reaving here... 

[YIRAWK]

You know BW, people like to ''Hold the line''. It is one of the and probably the most famous line in the Mass Effect series. This DLC made that impossible to do so. Holding down a small area is close to impossible now thanks to Dragoons, Bombers and the old Banshee. You're not letting people take cover in a cover game. Hell, the newest characters CAN'T take cover. Remember your roots. You don't have to change back the map changes, but the new units, they should go.

Modifié par YIRAWK, 14 octobre 2012 - 08:39 .

[apascone]

Yea, it was a HUGE deal! I'd have to enter and leave at least 5 gold matches to find one that wasn't FBWGG. Sometimes it would be up towards 10 times. Its nice going in and not have to worry about farming. Now people can learn how to play the game instead of sitting and shooting.

[geceka]

ReverendBeast wrote...

It all boils down to your first reply and your view FBW was an exploit and it is not how "legit players play...  I happen to totally disagree with the oringinal premise you stated...
You had 11 other maps to play.  BW introduced the challeges which on its own should be enough incentive for players to explore other maps and different game strategies...
The changes are in my opinion punitive in nature and wholly uncalled for...

Look, I thought we both agreed that FBW's setup was "special" in the way that it allowed for a play style that was so obviously unaligned with the rest of the maps that something was wrong. You call it a feature, I call it an exploitable design issue that got fixed.

Your "but you can go to 11 other maps" argument is, as already said a few times not only by me, but others as well, insofar invalid that it was genuinely hard to find a non-FBW/G game on Gold. While it lasted, I had no problem with people doing this. I even played quite a few FBW/G/G or P games myself, I mean, why not, but I'm not pretending not to understand how this was a level design glitch that deserves being fixed.

ReverendBeast wrote...

By the by... I only played FBWGG if I didn't have at least one friend on line.... Other than that it was FBWGP, I mean why farm for half the credits for the same amount of time???

That's cool, I personally don't like Platinum games with randoms either, as I'm personally not even able to carry a full team on Gold, let alone Platinum. Like I said, I have no problem with people who farmed G/G or G/P, only with the fact that FBW had the unintended design issue of making this so trivial.

Let me repeat: I'm not attacking a group of people. If you think so, please re-read my posts, and if you still think that way, my apologies, that was not my intention. I only say that FBW was *fixed* because there was something wrong with it.

ReverendBeast wrote...

So now the Plat lobbies are full of RGL spawn rushers... I find this a completely boring and ultra monotinous way to play...  So yes, the game changes have impacted me in a negative way...

Gee, I already said that I'd totally welcome Bioware changing the spawn system to make it less predictable. I still think that this is not a valid point, though, as you should then pour your effort into making threads asking Bioware to fix this, if it impacts your experience in a way that original FBW impacted mine (just for the record: I did *not* complain to Bioware about FBW. Just wanted to get that out before people start blaming the changes on me ;-)).

It's certainly not like this on Xbox. I assume there are differences on all platforms, regarding both that, but also how much FBW/G/G lobbies there were. As I've said, on Xbox it was hard to find a non FBW/G/G random, and impossible to find a non-FBW P game.

ReverendBeast wrote...

Now it's my turn to complain about the way you choose to play your game...  A little off putting isn't it???  Who am I to decide how you play your game??? Who are you and BW able to take a morally superior position and claim you have the right to address my playing style with punitive measures???

Let me reassure you (again) that I don't play this way, so there's no point in attacking me here. Also, this is not about a "morally superior" position, FBW was simply broken and got fixed. Neither that, nor the new units invalidate camping entirely, but create situations in which you may need to adapt, at least temporarily. Like I said, in the last couple of days, I've played some games where the group when all rambo-style and literally hunted down enemies, but also some where we camped primarily. In both cases, we occasionally had to pull back or swarm out, reacting to the current situation. Personally, I derive great enjoyment from this variety. As such, I see this as a big improvement.

I don't have a problem with any playing style, but exploiting FBW was not a "playing style", but just that, an exploit that only works on this one map and against this one enemy (though still a big advantage against others, too).

ReverendBeast wrote...

If your neighbor decides to use briquets in his gas grill, would that be reason enough to change gas grills so he couldn't put briquets in?????

You see my point??? One mans delicacy is another mans poison.  You have sooo may options to avoid a FBW lobby it is just ridiculous to say Campers ruined the whole game for you...

I honestly don't see your point here. FBW was not a playing style, you could (and can) camp on any map (there are good spots everywhere), but on FBW, camping in that one spot (and that one spot only) together with the way the AI works entirely nullified the threat the enemy poses, unlike any other map in the game.

The point is not whether you enjoyed it, it's whether you accept the fact that it had a game-changing (and I'd even say -breaking) design issue.

ParatrooperSean wrote...

You have no clue what an actual exploit is. Sitting behind a counter waiting for the slow, non-grenade having Geth to walk in is NOT an exploit. By your definition nuking spawn points would be an exploit. Popping your head up after each third Prime cannon shot would be an exploit. Any strategy that takes advantage of game mechanics would be an exploit.

Read my definition of it again (I'm not even claiming it's *the* definition, just *my* definition): A game exploit is an approach that leads to success under *any* circumstance. Your examples don't fit. Regarding spawn-nukes, I've already said multiple times that I see this as an exploit too and would like it to be fixed. Regarding waiting until a Prime has shot 3 times, that is not an exploit because it protects you from exactly one thing: The Prime shooting you. If you are surrounded by troopers, rocket troopers, hunters and pyros, this does not work, because you will get downed by something else. Thus, it is not an approach that works under any circumstance.

FBW was not a game mechanic (the AI system hasn't changed), it was a design issue with the level. You cannot genuinely believe that FBW played out like Bioware intended, and if you accept that there was something "special" about it, I don't see how you could be angry about the fix. On the contrary, they could have just removed this map, but rather chose to repair it. Kudos to them.

ParatrooperSean wrote...

An exploit would be something like the host leaving after the Wave 10 mission is complete so it restarts, and then repeating so you can farm credits. I heard that used to be possible, and that is an actual exploit.

Yes, this is an exploit, but not related to in-game mechanics. I don't know if it's still possible, but I don't think so. Anyway, it was not something impacting your experience on random games, since you need (at least on Xbox) to be friends with the host in order to let them re-join again, so it didn't happen on random games.

ReverendBeast wrote...

Is taking cover an exploit??? Maybe BW should eliminate all cover from all the maps and make shield regen stations instead??? That would fix those low life campers

Come on, now you're getting quite polemic. Of course cover is not an exploit, but it would be if it made you impervious to absolutely any damage under any circumstances. Cover does very little if you are getting shot at from all sides, it just protects from on side. You know that, I know that, everybody knows that. It's a bad example for what you're trying to bring across.

MissFish wrote...

Are you saying that everyone who did FBWGG should be banned because it was a "glitch"?
Shooting rockets out of an AR is glitching. Using a certain playstyle isn't.

Did I say that? No, of course nobody should be banned for it. Why should they? There was a broken map and a lot of people used it. They fixed the map, and all is good now.

I just use the word "exploit" and "glitch" loosely here, because in a game, it's hard to pinpoint something to being merely a level-design issue, a programming issue, etc.., but rather an interplay of those: If the AI was smart enough to swarm the infamous FBW room from the back door, too, then FBW would never have become the camping haven it had been. Alternatively to the redesign, they could have adapted the AI, but all in all, I think the new FBW layout is a huge improvement regardless of the camping issue by itself, so I'm happy with the fix they chose (even though I'm always welcoming improvements to the AI, etc...).

ReverendBeast wrote...

In my times running Plat, you would always get flanked by a enemies coming in the back door so I can't agree with you there... Game balance you say??? Like last weeks "balance changes" weren't enough already??? Nope, yet another line of reasoning predicated on the failed arguement that camping was a game exploit...

Now I really don't want to be cynical here, but then you didn't do it right :-) Enemies only came in through the back door if one of the players was camping outside the room by the L-shaped cover and accidentally lured some enemies down that path, then had to retreat (e.g. to get ammo or something, freaked out about Banshees, etc...) – I never said I never played FBW/G/P, I played a fair share of them.

[StarcloudSWG]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

The layout changes to Firebase White were made (at my personal request) to address camping, not farming. Farming has never been an issue.

Well, that's unfortunate. One of the better combat tactics to use is creating or using a natural choke point in order to channel enemies into a line of fire. Since we can't move any of those crates to create such a choke point, having a map changed out from under us to eliminate this normally viable tactic is quite disappointing.

[Gerza71]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

The layout changes to Firebase White were made (at my personal request) to address camping, not farming. Farming has never been an issue.

Nothing solves grinding no matter what you do. They find a way, but for camping that is a good move adding those Geth bombers. Though there are a pain, they keep me honest and on the move.

[Razerath]

Why do most of you have to **** about this? Like a pile of dirty diapered babies.

The change was for the best and I am sure the few people, all 6 of you lame asses, can change your camping style. Camping is BORING especially for the other players. We do not like to do 80% of the work while you ride a desk waiting for a stray Cannibal to walk by.

[sparky1177]

Wait about a week. Then we'll see threads popping up everywhere asking BW to change back fbw cause the "good" players are tired of having to carry people that normally would have played fbw/g/g. Guess what people, they were doing it to get more credits. You think they're just gonna go back to silver and deal with the pay cut? Doubtful. Now they're going to be in your u/u/g games. And it takes time to learn a new strategy. But they're not gonna go back to silver just Cause of a few failed games. You elitists will now be carrying the campers. Hope you have strong backs.