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[TUHD]

Reading through the forums and having played a part of the game, I realized past time there's something weird going on... morals that don't really match at times.

For example... Alistair keeps his morals about blood mages. But as far as I can tell, Alistair doesn't give a damn if you become a bloodmage or use blood magic (or the special blood abilities of Warden's Keep). The old Grey Warden in the Keep? Blood Mage. Does Alistair seem to care that you let him live? No. Who does actually want him more dead? Wynne and Leliana. Things don't add up here...
Wynne doesn't like blood magic, but doesn't care either. Neither she seems to have any special comments when clearing out the Blood Mages house in Denerim (as far as I can recall, Alistair has no special comment either).

Also, if you share a partial common background there are that few references... the most references to an more or less common past (as far as I can tell) are made by Wynne.... If you decide to become an Templar? No comment from Alistair. Rogues get no special lines from Leliana or Zevran... You're an elf too?.. Pityfull few comments from Zevran... Most I enjoyed so far are the rantings of Morrigan against the Circle and the Chantry when you're an mage...
Warriors never ever seem to get special comments... mages get the most comments so far. Maybe due to the fact there are that few mages...

I didn't come near Oghren yet (at the point I heard about him ingame, I realized I had made an epic character building mistake and had to restart the game, making a new character. Happens too often with me :/ ).

Zven (or how was that Quasari called again) is pretty straightforward, and expects you to belittle him.. pretty strange for such an proud character like him... I still cannot figure out what to do with him... IMHO, only reason to keep him on a party seems to be for the XP of his sidequest, and his almost unmatched two-handed sword/axe strenght.

Morrigan... incarnation of evil. I totally love her likes though... you know what's she about, and she's (perhaps without knowing) totally influenced by Flemeth's behaviour... although Morrigan is most insulted when you compare her to Flemeth
Anyway... this is my rant/view upon it...

[stillnotking]

It's even worse than that... Wynne can actually BECOME a Blood Mage, which is totally ridiculous given her character background.

In the mage origin story, when a character does Blood Magic, it's this incredibly shocking thing and the entire might of the Templars/Chantry comes down on him. If your character or Wynne or Morrigan becomes a Blood Mage, it's "ho hum, that's nice". I am aware that this could be rationalized by the fact that you are using it to fight the Archdemon, but NO comments are made to that effect by any of the characters who should have the strongest objections.
IMO it is the single biggest hole in the storyline and it irritates me greatly.

Edit: another plot hole is that Wynne will attack your group if Morrigan is with you and (via the initial dialogue) Wynne finds out that Morrigan is an Apostate.  And yet, as long as it is not explicitly mentioned, Wynne has no problem watching Morrigan do magic thirty seconds later, even though it is clear Morrigan is not a Circle mage.

Modifié par stillnotking, 30 décembre 2009 - 01:54 .

[ToJKa1]

TUHD wrote...
Morrigan... incarnation of evil. I totally love her likes though... you know what's she about, and she's (perhaps without knowing) totally influenced by Flemeth's behaviour... although Morrigan is most insulted when you compare her to Flemeth

That i disagree with, she's not an evil person, she just has uncommon views things. She is not a baby eater (you can ask her about that, in fact:D), but a troubled, complex person with mother issues, or then she had a mishap with wolf transformation (returned to human, but remained a b**** )

[Lotion Soronarr]

ToJKa1 wrote...
That i disagree with, she's not an evil person, she just has uncommon views things.

So does Himmler.

[Cybercat999]

Yeah, I spec Wynne as blood mage and she never notices.

[ToJKa1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...
That i disagree with, she's not an evil person, she just has uncommon views things.

So does Himmler.../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png

Well, i don't see her quite THAT bad...

Modifié par ToJKa1, 30 décembre 2009 - 02:34 .

[stillnotking]

Morrigan is the best-written character in the game IMO. She is a personality type that most of us have encountered (maybe not to the same degree) -- she's self-absorbed, arrogant, but basically insecure and very uncomfortable with displays of emotion. She's not a truly evil or sociopathic person; she does have a conscience and feelings, but actively suppresses them, believing that they are signs of weakness. She's probably very much like Flemeth was when she was young, which raises the possibility that she really is Flemeth's biological daughter (perhaps magically conceived).

[metalica11]

stillnotking wrote...

Morrigan is the best-written character in the game IMO. She is a personality type that most of us have encountered (maybe not to the same degree) -- she's self-absorbed, arrogant, but basically insecure and very uncomfortable with displays of emotion. She's not a truly evil or sociopathic person; she does have a conscience and feelings, but actively suppresses them, believing that they are signs of weakness. She's probably very much like Flemeth was when she was young, which raises the possibility that she really is Flemeth's biological daughter (perhaps magically conceived).

  well that depends on your view on sociology, in your statement, it would seem like you are saying that personality is inherently genetic.  I feel it is more along the lines of Flemmeth having taken her as a baby to raise, thus her environment has made her who she is ( flemmeths influence, not genes)

[robertthebard]

metalica11 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Morrigan is the best-written character in the game IMO. She is a personality type that most of us have encountered (maybe not to the same degree) -- she's self-absorbed, arrogant, but basically insecure and very uncomfortable with displays of emotion. She's not a truly evil or sociopathic person; she does have a conscience and feelings, but actively suppresses them, believing that they are signs of weakness. She's probably very much like Flemeth was when she was young, which raises the possibility that she really is Flemeth's biological daughter (perhaps magically conceived).

  well that depends on your view on sociology, in your statement, it would seem like you are saying that personality is inherently genetic.  I feel it is more along the lines of Flemmeth having taken her as a baby to raise, thus her environment has made her who she is ( flemmeths influence, not genes)

A solid argument for Nature vs Nurture.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, it's quite funny, actually, to give specializations to Characters that would basically spew pea soup when encountering such an individual. Blood Maging Wynne was funny, especially going into the tevinter slaver warehouse, where the dude offers to sacrifice a bunch of elves to make you stronger, and she gets pissy about it. Right after she just drained the whople party to fuel her quake spells.

[AntiChri5]

Are we all forgetting that its a game? and that people would complain if Leliana dumped them because of their character build?

[ashez2ashes]

I think it would be pretty awesome if there was consequences for your character build.

[Tirigon]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Yes, it's quite funny, actually, to give specializations to Characters that would basically spew pea soup when encountering such an individual. Blood Maging Wynne was funny, especially going into the tevinter slaver warehouse, where the dude offers to sacrifice a bunch of elves to make you stronger, and she gets pissy about it. Right after she just drained the whople party to fuel her quake spells.

Well, that tells us a lot about Wynne, doesn´t it? She dislikes Blood magic, yes, but even she knows that you can put it to good use. The evil lies (or lies not) in the user, not in the tool. So while bloodmagic may be evil when used by others, it´s perfectly fine if she has it herself....

[fanman72]

ashez2ashes wrote...

I think it would be pretty awesome if there was consequences for your character build.

Nah.  People will find ways around it.  I wanted to become a reaver, but didn't my first playthrough knowing that it would ****** off half my party.

Major decisions that impact the story are great - however, I'm not a fan when it limits what specializations or gear you can choose

[Tirigon]

It wouldn´t fit in the story if they would leave your party because they don´t like your way of fighting anyways.

Let´s take bloodmage as example: Sure, it´s forbidden, and Leliana, Wynne, etc should be pretty pissed, but why would they leave you? You are the only hope for Ferelden, after all. Even if they could defeat you, they would sentence Ferelden, and thus themselves, to death by killing you....

[Jarkill]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ToJKa1 wrote...
That i disagree with, she's not an evil person, she just has uncommon views things.

So does Himmler.

The argument ended here. Godwin's law, thanks.

[Spitz6860]

well, i think Bioware made the right call on this in terms of not limit you on anything, if you want to stay in your character you should know to not to make Wynn a blood mage, but if you really want to do it, go ahead.

[keesio74]

Yeah I thought it was also funny that Wynne freaks out at blood magic but you can make her a blood mage. But I think people here are thinking this through too much. The reason why she doesn't object is because of game limitation. An oversight. It is a game and it is too hard to handle all the possible permutations so you let it go.

Morrigan is simply self-centered and a staunch libertarian/objectivist/darwinist ("survival of the fittest"). She is also not out to intentionally harm anyone. But she simply does not care (most of the time) if someone she cares not for does get harmed. She is also socially awkward in dealing with close relationships.

Now one thing that brings a smile is how when you help some of the poor women out (Bella and the girl with the little brother in Redcliffe), you get approval from Wynne and Alistair but nothing from the other goody two-shoes Leliana. Since I am in a relationhsip with Leliana I think it means Leliana is not so fond that you helped out a girl (and this is just giving them money and that's it - no flirting) ;-)

Modifié par keesio74, 05 janvier 2010 - 04:40 .

[Namirsolo]

I don't think Sten expects you to belittle him. He only likes it if you are an authoritative leader who doesn't second guess him or herself. This makes sense since he is a decorated soldier. Why would he follow someone who can't lead?

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, Sten wants someone who stands up to him, but I would not say your responses to him belittle him. On the blood mage issue, as far as the Grey Warden view of things goes: in the mage origin you can talk to Duncan about blood magic, and he will say outright that Wardens do not mind the use of blood magic in service of stopping the Blight (that at least can explain Alistair not having much of a problem with it and accepting Avernus).



As for spec'ing blood mage/making Wynne a blood mage...yeah, come on, let's not get silly over it. It's because the game has its limits. Can't really expect the devs to program in an "I'm going to kill myself because I'm suddenly a blood mage" option for Wynne or have her storm off because you're one of them (for all we know, maybe your mage chats with her about it at camp and convinces her that you're doing good things ). I suppose they could have maybe limited the available specs for the NPCs, but the devs probably wanted to give you maximum freedom with your choices. If you're not a mage, you have two other options maximum after all (assuming you keep Morrigan and Wynne).

[stillnotking]

metalica11 wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Morrigan is the best-written character in the game IMO. She is a personality type that most of us have encountered (maybe not to the same degree) -- she's self-absorbed, arrogant, but basically insecure and very uncomfortable with displays of emotion. She's not a truly evil or sociopathic person; she does have a conscience and feelings, but actively suppresses them, believing that they are signs of weakness. She's probably very much like Flemeth was when she was young, which raises the possibility that she really is Flemeth's biological daughter (perhaps magically conceived).

  well that depends on your view on sociology, in your statement, it would seem like you are saying that personality is inherently genetic.  I feel it is more along the lines of Flemmeth having taken her as a baby to raise, thus her environment has made her who she is ( flemmeths influence, not genes)

Two words for you: twin studies.  Identical twins raised apart are much, much closer in personality than fraternal twins raised together.  There really isn't any question about this: personality is to a very high degree genetic; it's just that people don't like that idea for whatever reason, and resist accepting it.  I'd encourage you to read some of the academic work on the subject.  Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate is probably the best layman's summary.

But anyway, back to the topic at hand: I get that this is a game and that restricting Wynne's magical options would feel "limiting" to some.  But it's equally "limiting" that you can't have Alistair and The Mystery Companion (name redacted to protect the spoiler-conscious) in your group at the same time, for personality/plot reasons.  It's inconsistent.

[mrofni]

I do dislike how if you go through the motions to get blood magic and the characters just don't care. They seem to care about you helping Kolgrim and destroying the Ashes, but blood magic is perfectly fine? On the same logic, shouldn't some characters have an issue with you becoming an Assassin or Templar? I wish a lot of the paths you took had more meaningful effect on characters. It seems the only characters who care about anything you do is Leliana and Wynne, and that is ONLY for becoming a Reaver. No one cares about anything else. You get random comments that make it seem like they would care about a lot more things, like Blood Magic, Templars, Assassins, Bards, but nothing actually changes if you go for these routes. It is annoying.

[Mummolus]

They seem to care about you helping Kolgrim and destroying the Ashes, but blood magic is perfectly fine?

You're the only one in the Fade and if you deal with the demon it gives the appearance of having been defeated, the idea being it can return in force at a later time. Your party doesn't know you're secretly a child-sacrificer.

[stillnotking]

Mummolus wrote...

They seem to care about you helping Kolgrim and destroying the Ashes, but blood magic is perfectly fine?

You're the only one in the Fade and if you deal with the demon it gives the appearance of having been defeated, the idea being it can return in force at a later time. Your party doesn't know you're secretly a child-sacrificer.

Yes, but they're still going to see you doing Blood Magic after that, and unless they are completely stupid they will realize that you made some kind of pact with the demon in order to learn it.

Again, I think this could have been addressed by some additional dialogue of the "we need every available tool to beat the Archdemon" variety -- and possibly the loss of the more Chantry-ish party members -- but it's just a glaring plot hole to allow Blood Magic with no explanation at all, especially since other parts of the story make such a big deal out of maleficars.  It just seems like the developers realized that some players would feel let down or restricted if Blood Magic wasn't available, but didn't feel like tinkering with the plot to make the character's use of it believable.

And that's just the PC.  Allowing Wynne to become a Blood Mage without a radical change in her character is really bizarre and inexcusable.