269 réponses à ce sujet

[arial]

 people here always seem to argue that conventional victory is possible when infact it is not.

Reason conventional victory is impossible is simple, Bioware says so.

The Mass Effect universe Is Biowares, not yours. as such Bioware decides what happens, what is possible, and what is impossible.

[Aaleel]

What you witnessed and were told in the game says no. There is nothing in the game that even suggests it's possible to wipe out every reaper.

I swear if the catalyst never appeared you would have never heard any of this talk. If there was a boss fight and afterwards Shepard went forward pressed a button, killed all the reapers, and then victorious cutscenes began to roll you would have never heard a word about conventional victory being possible.  People who have accepted whole heartedly the crucible was the only way to win.

Modifié par Aaleel, 14 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Obeded the 2nd]

Ignore them.

That's what I do, it's foolish to believe in conventional victory against the reapers.

[Ratimir]

arial wrote...

 people here always seem to argue that conventional victory is possible when infact it is not.

Reason conventional victory is impossible is simple, Bioware says so.

The Mass Effect universe Is Biowares, not yours. as such Bioware decides what happens, what is possible, and what is impossible.

Link please?

I don't recall BioWare or any of their representatives ever saying such a thing.

[Argolas]

You simply need to do some math. Only dreadnoughts can hurt capital ships. We have, let´s be generous, 100 dreadnoughts in our endgame fleet. We need sustained fire of 4 dreads to destroy a capital ship, but let´s be generous again, I will leave the "sustained" part out. A reaper capital ship can destroy a dread with one blow. So we can equal the firepower of 25 reaper capital ships at best.

There you have it.

[Samtheman63]

reapers are trying to harvest us and our technology, not annihilate everything

they have a beam that one shots anything, if we ever began to even get close to winning, they would destroy us, easily

[Maxster_]

Ratimir wrote...

arial wrote...

 people here always seem to argue that conventional victory is possible when infact it is not.

Reason conventional victory is impossible is simple, Bioware says so.

The Mass Effect universe Is Biowares, not yours. as such Bioware decides what happens, what is possible, and what is impossible.

Link please?

I don't recall BioWare or any of their representatives ever saying such a thing.

EAWare made the game in such manner.
Also, complete retcon of ME1 and ME2. They are just unneeded.
Why reapers waited for thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations? They could just fly into the galaxy in half a year, and lose nothing in the process.
I'm not even saying about Catalyst, who sitting in Citadel, and watched Sovereign and Harbringer fails just for lulz.

[knightnblu]

I have to agree that your position is perfectly sensible and well reasoned. However, BioWare has also been all over the map on this. If BioWare is to be believed, and there is sufficient evidence to doubt their veracity, then BioWare essentially contradicts you in the game where they tell you that allied forces are holding and winning key victories and that the odds are even for the Earth mission. Now I don't know about you, but when I hear even odds it means that the forces are equal in ability and if they are equal in ability then a conventional Reaper victory is not assured.

So on the one hand we have BioWare saying that a conventional victory is impossible and on the other hand we have BioWare saying that the combat forces are equal. Which is the lie?

[Apocaleepse360]

Maxster_ wrote...
EAWare made the game in such manner.
Also, complete retcon of ME1 and ME2. They are just unneeded.
Why reapers waited for thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations? They could just fly into the galaxy in half a year, and lose nothing in the process.
I'm not even saying about Catalyst, who sitting in Citadel, and watched Sovereign and Harbringer fails just for lulz.

This is so true, it's funny and sad at the same time...

Modifié par Apocaleepse360, 14 octobre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Aaleel]

knightnblu wrote...

I have to agree that your position is perfectly sensible and well reasoned. However, BioWare has also been all over the map on this. If BioWare is to be believed, and there is sufficient evidence to doubt their veracity, then BioWare essentially contradicts you in the game where they tell you that allied forces are holding and winning key victories and that the odds are even for the Earth mission. Now I don't know about you, but when I hear even odds it means that the forces are equal in ability and if they are equal in ability then a conventional Reaper victory is not assured.

So on the one hand we have BioWare saying that a conventional victory is impossible and on the other hand we have BioWare saying that the combat forces are equal. Which is the lie?

When did they say all of this in the game?

The Earth mission is using the crucible, not winning a fight head up against the reaper forces.  No where do they say we'll fight conventionally because we have even odds and if that doesn't work we'll use the crucible.

They entire plan is to hold out long enough to get the crucible in place and use it.

And any other encounter with the reapers in the game is a flat out curb stomping.

[GreyLycanTrope]

They say a lot of things, not all of them true.

[Nicodemus]

Hmmm.. well, one would assume that a conventional victory against the ENTIRE reaper fleet is impossible. However, the game not only indicates but shows that the reapers are Galaxy wide and not all clumped together in one great blob. The battle for Palaven shows the Turians fighting a rearguard against the Reapers and then with the help of the Krogan forces intimates that they are then holding their own and pushing the reaper forces back into a stalemate.

To this end a conventional victory at EARTH was seen as plausible by a what was seen in game and what was indicated by getting a combined fleet together.

I do agree though that it would have been impossible if the entire reaper fleet was sat in earth orbit, but we saw that they were not, so it doesn't exactly seem to be a total lack of logic to assume it could have been possible.

[Vigilant111]

How did we kill a reaper with 2 missiles?

[Nicodemus]

Vigilant111 wrote...

How did we kill a reaper with 2 missiles?

Probably a lack of plot armour in evidence.......

[Aaleel]

Nicodemus wrote...

Hmmm.. well, one would assume that a conventional victory against the ENTIRE reaper fleet is impossible. However, the game not only indicates but shows that the reapers are Galaxy wide and not all clumped together in one great blob. The battle for Palaven shows the Turians fighting a rearguard against the Reapers and then with the help of the Krogan forces intimates that they are then holding their own and pushing the reaper forces back into a stalemate.

If you talk to Garrus he says that he's going to recommened pulling back the remaining Turian forces and preserving the remaining assest for the fight at Earth.  That does not sound like a stalemate to me.

[DrGunjah]

Hmmm.. well, one would assume that a conventional victory against the ENTIRE reaper fleet is impossible. However, the game not only indicates but shows that the reapers are Galaxy wide and not all clumped together in one great blob. The battle for Palaven shows the Turians fighting a rearguard against the Reapers and then with the help of the Krogan forces intimates that they are then holding their own and pushing the reaper forces back into a stalemate.

I always wondered, but maybe you can enlighten me: what exactly can krogan infantry do against reaper capital ships and destroyers?

[Ratimir]

No link?

How about a quote? A name? Anything?

[Argolas]

Vigilant111 wrote...

How did we kill a reaper with 2 missiles?

Just a Destroyer, these are significantly less powerful. I think codex says that even a single cruiser can sometimes take a Destroyer. The souvereign-class capital ships are these nearly invincible reapers.

[arial]

Ratimir wrote...

No link?

How about a quote? A name? Anything?

go play through ME3, they mention about ever 15minutes "you know we can not win this conventionally"

[knightnblu]

Aaleel wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

I have to agree that your position is perfectly sensible and well reasoned. However, BioWare has also been all over the map on this. If BioWare is to be believed, and there is sufficient evidence to doubt their veracity, then BioWare essentially contradicts you in the game where they tell you that allied forces are holding and winning key victories and that the odds are even for the Earth mission. Now I don't know about you, but when I hear even odds it means that the forces are equal in ability and if they are equal in ability then a conventional Reaper victory is not assured.

So on the one hand we have BioWare saying that a conventional victory is impossible and on the other hand we have BioWare saying that the combat forces are equal. Which is the lie?

When did they say all of this in the game?

The Earth mission is using the crucible, not winning a fight head up against the reaper forces.  No where do they say we'll fight conventionally because we have even odds and if that doesn't work we'll use the crucible.

They entire plan is to hold out long enough to get the crucible in place and use it.

And any other encounter with the reapers in the game is a flat out curb stomping.

You know all of those extra buttons in the war room at the assetts display? Try invoking some of them and reading the display and your questions will be answered.

[Vigilant111]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

Lol Nope



The real reason is because Bioware is lazy, as proven by this terrible game.

Yes

If they made me do 1000 hours of rock climbing with the mako or running around the Citadel in order to get an ending which gives a good showing of war assets in action, I would have done it

Oh, wait I did, so where is this ending?

[Nicodemus]

DrGunjah wrote...

Hmmm.. well, one would assume that a conventional victory against the ENTIRE reaper fleet is impossible. However, the game not only indicates but shows that the reapers are Galaxy wide and not all clumped together in one great blob. The battle for Palaven shows the Turians fighting a rearguard against the Reapers and then with the help of the Krogan forces intimates that they are then holding their own and pushing the reaper forces back into a stalemate.

I always wondered, but maybe you can enlighten me: what exactly can krogan infantry do against reaper capital ships and destroyers?

You answered your own question. The mere fact that there are Reaper capital ships and destroyers still engaged with Turian and Krogan units means that the Reaper forces are still divided around the Galaxy so a strike against one place with all your units at your disposal could give you a conventional victory at THAT spot. 

I'm not advocating that you can beat all of the reapers in the same spot at the same time, but previous cycles have inflicted conventional losses to the reaper fleet, therefore going by what the game gave you and that the nature of the enemy is not to be concentrated in one spot a conventional victory at Earth would indeed seem possible. Though you'd be right royally screwed at the end of it as although you'd have won that battle it would be difficult to win the war.

Maybe a better statement might be, a conventional victory at Earth should be possible, but an overall conventional victory would not be without the use of the crucible.

[Aaleel]

knightnblu wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

I have to agree that your position is perfectly sensible and well reasoned. However, BioWare has also been all over the map on this. If BioWare is to be believed, and there is sufficient evidence to doubt their veracity, then BioWare essentially contradicts you in the game where they tell you that allied forces are holding and winning key victories and that the odds are even for the Earth mission. Now I don't know about you, but when I hear even odds it means that the forces are equal in ability and if they are equal in ability then a conventional Reaper victory is not assured.

So on the one hand we have BioWare saying that a conventional victory is impossible and on the other hand we have BioWare saying that the combat forces are equal. Which is the lie?

When did they say all of this in the game?

The Earth mission is using the crucible, not winning a fight head up against the reaper forces.  No where do they say we'll fight conventionally because we have even odds and if that doesn't work we'll use the crucible.

They entire plan is to hold out long enough to get the crucible in place and use it.

And any other encounter with the reapers in the game is a flat out curb stomping.

You know all of those extra buttons in the war room at the assetts display? Try invoking some of them and reading the display and your questions will be answered.

Yes I've read about the hit and run tactics and other small engagements that the organic races took part in.  Now let's look at the rest.

- Reapers come through to Earth.  Hackett sacrifices the entire 2nd fleet just so that the others can live and fight another day.
- You get to Palaven and you hear.  'Oh no, not Palaven', 'the most advanced military in the galaxy and they're being being obliterated', 'they're being decimated'.  Then later on Garrus says he's going to recommened preserving the remaining assests for earth.
- Thessia, well that's a complete curb stomping
- Reapers even after beefed up security overwhelm the Citadel and move it before as much as a distress signal can be sent out.
- Hammer forces sustain heavy losses just trying to get to the beam and what's left is decimated and beaten back by one reaper standing next to a beam.

No one even knows how many reapers there are and how many of each type.  Nothing I read in the codex, on a war asset, or saw in game leads me to believe it's even close to possible. 

[Ratimir]

arial wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

No link?

How about a quote? A name? Anything?

go play through ME3, they mention about ever 15minutes "you know we can not win this conventionally"

Oh, I see, you mean "Hackett said so".

I see your admiral and raise you a codex. "Theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated."