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Faith in Bioware Restored


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#126
dreman9999

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iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and as the ghost if honor matter....The silence is you awnser."

Once you do you'll get my point. If your squad knew you let everyone one in the galexy gets destoryed because you did not want to taint you honor...They will be none too happy.I don't see Ashley shying away form picking destroy.


Sorry I don't play renegade.

How about the phrase "I won't let fear compromise who I am?"

Llike I said, if Bioware wants to force me to commit a galactic-scale war crime to "win" I simply won't play.  This is, after all a game.  Unfortunately, Bioware forgot this detail in its pursuit of "art"

1. If you don't want to do galactic genocide...Pick control.

2.It's not about being renagade or paragon. It's about save the characters you care for and the galexy. If you can't get over yourself and do what needs to be do to do that...Everyone will die.

If you morals gets everyone killed, is it worth anything?

Modifié par dreman9999, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:25 .


#127
Ratimir

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Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.

#128
dreman9999

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Ratimir wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.

Yes,  Ratimir  ..Take  Eterna5 advice and stop adding bull**** to the coversation.:whistle:

#129
clennon8

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Ghost1017 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...
I saw the ending on YouTube. Cortana dies earlier but so does Chief. New protagonist will be another Spartan.


Thank the Maker you're ****ing with me. :lol:


I am but Cortana does die. Don't type in Halo 4 on YT.

Thanks for ruining the one thing that made me interested in playing Halo 4.

On the other hand, maybe your'e doing me a favor.

#130
3DandBeyond

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iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and as the ghost if honor matter....The silence is you awnser."

Once you do you'll get my point. If your squad knew you let everyone one in the galexy gets destoryed because you did not want to taint you honor...They will be none too happy.I don't see Ashley shying away form picking destroy.


Sorry I don't play renegade.

How about the phrase "I won't let fear compromise who I am?"

Llike I said, if Bioware wants to force me to commit a galactic-scale war crime to "win" I simply won't play.  This is, after all a game.  Unfortunately, Bioware forgot this detail in its pursuit of "art"


Not to mention that I wouldn't hold up the Protheans as any example of how to do anything.  They were a totalitarian, segmented or caste regime.  They enslaved or killed those who would not be subjugated by them.  And Javik contradicts himself because he believes it is the unity (and strength through diversity) that gives this cycle a chance.  Then apparently that (which is a part of honor) does not matter.

More to the point is what Shepard said.

"You don't kill some people over here to save some over there."
"Synthetics and organics don't always have to fight."
"You don't condemn a whole race to extinction based upon what might happen."

Or Mordin.
"No soul.  Replaced by tech."
And his whole diatribe against synthesis.

Or Legion.
The heretic geth and the true geth wanted the same thing, but they wanted to get it in different ways.  Legion sees the heretic's way as too straightline of a path, created by others for them to follow and not by themselves for them to earn.

Or Hackett.
Anyone that thinks he can control the reapers is crazy.

#131
Ghost

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clennon8 wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...
I saw the ending on YouTube. Cortana dies earlier but so does Chief. New protagonist will be another Spartan.


Thank the Maker you're ****ing with me. :lol:


I am but Cortana does die. Don't type in Halo 4 on YT.

Thanks for ruining the one thing that made me interested in playing Halo 4.

On the other hand, maybe your'e doing me a favor.


I'm just kidding. Just don't type in Halo 4 on YT.

#132
clennon8

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Deal.

#133
Ratimir

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dreman9999 wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.

Yes,  Ratimir  ..Take  Eterna5 advice and stop adding bull**** to the coversation.:whistle:


It's okay dreman, I never expected you to understand the meaning of hypocrisy.

#134
dreman9999

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3DandBeyond wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and as the ghost if honor matter....The silence is you awnser."

Once you do you'll get my point. If your squad knew you let everyone one in the galexy gets destoryed because you did not want to taint you honor...They will be none too happy.I don't see Ashley shying away form picking destroy.


Sorry I don't play renegade.

How about the phrase "I won't let fear compromise who I am?"

Llike I said, if Bioware wants to force me to commit a galactic-scale war crime to "win" I simply won't play.  This is, after all a game.  Unfortunately, Bioware forgot this detail in its pursuit of "art"


Not to mention that I wouldn't hold up the Protheans as any example of how to do anything.  They were a totalitarian, segmented or caste regime.  They enslaved or killed those who would not be subjugated by them.  And Javik contradicts himself because he believes it is the unity (and strength through diversity) that gives this cycle a chance.  Then apparently that (which is a part of honor) does not matter.

More to the point is what Shepard said.

"You don't kill some people over here to save some over there."
"Synthetics and organics don't always have to fight."
"You don't condemn a whole race to extinction based upon what might happen."

Or Mordin.
"No soul.  Replaced by tech."
And his whole diatribe against synthesis.

Or Legion.
The heretic geth and the true geth wanted the same thing, but they wanted to get it in different ways.  Legion sees the heretic's way as too straightline of a path, created by others for them to follow and not by themselves for them to earn.

Or Hackett.
Anyone that thinks he can control the reapers is crazy.

1. If you don't want to do galactic genocide...Pick control.

2. of course we can hold the protheans up as an example..They lived through a reaper invation. They are the only reason we are able to fight back ageints the reapers. If they did not do waht they did, our cycle would be harvest like the rest.

3.It's not about being renagade or paragon. It's about save the characters you care for and the galexy. If you can't get over yourself and do what needs to be do to do that...Everyone will die.

If you morals gets everyone killed, is it worth anything?

#135
dreman9999

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Ratimir wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.

Yes,  Ratimir  ..Take  Eterna5 advice and stop adding bull**** to the coversation.:whistle:


It's okay dreman, I never expected you to understand the meaning of hypocrisy.

I'm joking. Sorry that did not translate.

#136
ShaggyWolf

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

I must admit it helped, but it hardly restored my faith. Kinda like a band-aid for a broken ankle, know what I mean?

Still, props for Bioware for at least doing SOMETHING.


I agree, and well put btw. The EC took a very disappointing conclusion, and changed it to the point where I could feel good about it.

But it still doesn't answer many of the questions and problems I have about ME3's writing, like:

Why did the Illusive man turn into a complete idiot? Why did Cerberus have to be bad guys? If one reads the books and comics, it's pretty clear that TIM is acting very OOC in ME3. ME2 was so great because it was driven by this brilliant grey Character+faction. It was a thinking man's game. You can't call Cerberus good guys, but you can't call them bad guys either. You can't really love or hate TIM. How does the player feel in this complicated situation? How do you make heads or tails? Most importantly, what does Shepard think about everything? Because you could control that in 1 and 2! The themes that provoked this kind of thought were unfortunately absent in ME3. And whatever opinion and thoughts the player has about Cerberus, is overwriten by a poorly-executed cop out: "It was all an act to manipulate you into getting Cerberus a base that TIM didn't even know about until the end of the game, Shepard! That scene at the very beginning of ME2, where TIM states to protect Shepard for the sake of humanity, never happened!"

By extension, what happened to my renegade Shepard? I was effectively a pro-human activist in the last 2 games, why was he so out of character in 3? Why was my Shepard forced into saluting and kissing every Alliance character's butt? He never did that before, at least, not without my input. For that matter, why was I forced into working with the Alliance? I kinda saw the last 2 games as introductions to 2 very different factions. We get to see the positives and  negatives of both, and form our own opinions of them. The logical thing to do, in a thoughtful narrative driven by player choice, would be to allow the player to choose either Cerberus or Alliance in 3, but instead we were forced into the Alliance, with Shepard being all too happy about it.

Why make the key to victory (over the reapers) be plans for a crucible that people knew about but didn't care about for the last several decades? Why not make the collector base decision mean something, and have the key for victory come from that? Why lessen this cycle's victory by having it be achieved from a cheat sheet composed by all the previous cycles?

Why sideline many favored characters like Miranda, Jack, Thane, and Zaeed? Two of them were on the freaking box art for ME2! They (and their fans) deserved better than the unimportant side-plots they were written into.

Why were the Reapers driven by a stupid AI? And I call it stupid because it forces a brute-force solution to a questionable "problem" all because of a very limited perspective and lack of foresight. It's stupid. Why were the reapers doing the things they did in the first 2 games, if their ultimate plan is what we see in ME3? The Reapers could have been so much greater, but instead, they were warped into a metaphysical debate subject, controlled by a power-blinded lunatic computer.

What happened to all the political friction between the Aliance, Cerberus, the Council, and non-Council races? No one was right or wrong before, and all of them were trying to control and manipulate the other. In ME3, the political strife is gone, and all factions are divided up between "good guys" and "bad guys."

Why wasn't Kai Leng nearly as cool as he was in Drew's books?

The Extended Cut solved a very immediate problem, which was a screwed up and ultimately unworthy conclusion. But there is no "faith restored" for me. My problem isn't even with Bioware. I think they're great. I love Dragon age and ME3 multiplayer, for example. My problem is with whatever writers decided to twist the main plot, and a large number of characters- including Shepard- beyond recognition, resulting in a game that doesn't match up to the previous sections of the trilogy, and fails to conclude them in an even remotely satisfying way.

I wanted to sieze control of the Reaper fleet, use them to ensure human dominance in the galaxy, and use their knowlege of millions of trapped civilizations and technologies to advance life, society, and technology to a point no one thought possible. I wanted to see my Shepard continue to fight and win against impossible odds, to stand up at the end of the day with new scars, but an even stronger will.

Instead I get whiney Shepard who confides everything in Liara, abandons Miranda to her own devices, turns into a political idealist who happily helps Turians, Krogan, and Asari while his own civilization crumbles due to their apathy.  He gets beaten in a bunch of cutscenes where I have no control (something that NEVER happened in the last 2 games) and finally, turns completely against cerberus with no input from me, and states- in autodialogue- that his reason for keeping the base was to use it to destroy Reapers.

So, to whoever wrote that: I kept the base because I wanted to see Asari matriarchs serve my Shepard sandwiches on diamond plates while he advances humanity to the pinnacle of evolution.

Edit: Sorry for the long post Image IPB

Modifié par Valadras21, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:38 .


#137
clennon8

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The fact that you can say "If you don't want to do galactic genocide...pick control" demonstrates with perfect clarity that you really have no idea why people hate the endings.

#138
Codename_Code

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Thanks for the retcon bioware, amen.
better get that IT dlc out quickly : /

#139
Iakus

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dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and as the ghost if honor matter....The silence is you awnser."

Once you do you'll get my point. If your squad knew you let everyone one in the galexy gets destoryed because you did not want to taint you honor...They will be none too happy.I don't see Ashley shying away form picking destroy.


Sorry I don't play renegade.

How about the phrase "I won't let fear compromise who I am?"

Llike I said, if Bioware wants to force me to commit a galactic-scale war crime to "win" I simply won't play.  This is, after all a game.  Unfortunately, Bioware forgot this detail in its pursuit of "art"

1. If you don't want to do galactic genocide...Pick control.

2.It's not about being renagade or paragon. It's about save the characters you care for and the galexy. If you can't get over yourself and do what needs to be do to do that...Everyone will die.

If you morals gets everyone killed, is it worth anything?


1) Yeah, right, Control.  That worked out so well for the Leviathans wit hthe Catalyst.  What are the odds the same thing won't happen to the ShepReaper?

2 Again, I was able to "do what needs to be done" quite satisfactilly as a paragon in ME1 and ME2.  It' sin ME3 where suddenly you have to be a sith lord to "save" the galaxy.  I know you're a stone cold renegade and can't understand that.  But try, okay?

Finally, my morals aren't going to get anyone killed.  It's a game, see?  the only thing that's at risk is my future support of Bioware games.

#140
Iakus

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clennon8 wrote...

The fact that you can say "If you don't want to do galactic genocide...pick control" demonstrates with perfect clarity that you really have no idea why people hate the endings.


Agreed.

Sadly, neither does Bioware, it seems.

#141
Xilizhra

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1) Yeah, right, Control. That worked out so well for the Leviathans wit hthe Catalyst. What are the odds the same thing won't happen to the ShepReaper?

Apparently quite high.

2 Again, I was able to "do what needs to be done" quite satisfactilly as a paragon in ME1 and ME2. It' sin ME3 where suddenly you have to be a sith lord to "save" the galaxy. I know you're a stone cold renegade and can't understand that. But try, okay?

You don't have to be a Sith lord. You're never required to do anything immoral.

#142
3DandBeyond

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dreman9999 wrote...
1. If you don't want to do galactic genocide...Pick control.

2.It's not about being renagade or paragon. It's about save thecharacters you care for and the galexy. If you can't get over your self and do what needs to be do to do that...Everyone will die.

If you morals gets everyone killed, is it worth anything?


If your ignorance in choosing something not clearly defined and with an unknown outcome dooms everyone to a fate worse than death, is that worth anything?  What price would you pay to live?  What price would you pay to make others live if they didn't want to live as you think they should?  Who does Shepard ever ask this question of, "do you want me to pick one of these things?"  If you would live but were forced forever to do what nanites in your body said you would do, and life no longer had the joy it once did, would you want that?  If you would live but you had to live surrounded by serial killers that ate your family, would you want that?  If you had to kill your children to save your wife's life, would you want that? 

Then answer this-
Who controls your body?
Who has the right to say if you live or die?
Do you think it's better to live and have machines control your life-and be able to do nothing about it and always live in fear, or to be allowed to try and fight even if it means you will die? 


Then look at current events and see how real people are answering these questions right now.
In the US, there's the question of who can tell a woman what she can do with her body-does the state have a right?
There are also questions of who has the right to decide for others that they must live even when they are terminally ill and in great pain.  There are also questions of when war is called for and when it is not.  And in some countries there are those who are put to death merely for being the "wrong" ethnicity, race, religion, or sexual orientation.  Who has the right to say if you live or die?

There is also the question of whether going forward we allow machines to control our lives (some do now with texting and emailing, youtube, and forums) or if we control and use them for our good.  And do machines adapt to us and our needs (does Apple make iPads to fit users' needs) or do we adapt to their abilities or to their new concepts (does Apple just make iPads that users will want and put stuff on it that users will come to think they need).

#143
Eterna

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Ratimir wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.


There is a conversaion here besides "The endings are poo!"? 

#144
Bill Casey

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dreman9999 wrote...

If you want a high an noble path, get over yourself and pick control.


Control is more unethical than Destroy...
Don't pretend like it's high and noble...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .


#145
dreman9999

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iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

iakus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and as the ghost if honor matter....The silence is you awnser."

Once you do you'll get my point. If your squad knew you let everyone one in the galexy gets destoryed because you did not want to taint you honor...They will be none too happy.I don't see Ashley shying away form picking destroy.


Sorry I don't play renegade.

How about the phrase "I won't let fear compromise who I am?"

Llike I said, if Bioware wants to force me to commit a galactic-scale war crime to "win" I simply won't play.  This is, after all a game.  Unfortunately, Bioware forgot this detail in its pursuit of "art"

1. If you don't want to do galactic genocide...Pick control.

2.It's not about being renagade or paragon. It's about save the characters you care for and the galexy. If you can't get over yourself and do what needs to be do to do that...Everyone will die.

If you morals gets everyone killed, is it worth anything?


1) Yeah, right, Control.  That worked out so well for the Leviathans wit hthe Catalyst.  What are the odds the same thing won't happen to the ShepReaper?

2 Again, I was able to "do what needs to be done" quite satisfactilly as a paragon in ME1 and ME2.  It' sin ME3 where suddenly you have to be a sith lord to "save" the galaxy.  I know you're a stone cold renegade and can't understand that.  But try, okay?

Finally, my morals aren't going to get anyone killed.  It's a game, see?  the only thing that's at risk is my future support of Bioware games.

1. I think you need to take the time to understand why what the leviathen did did not work to see that the Shepard AIis not the same case. And with that...Control is a very open option.

2.You've been making sacrifces since ME1. We just did not see the end results for a while. It just that asthe series progressed, the choice got more and more extreme, from squad mates lives, the coucil or human ships, to geth lives vs geth self, to advancement vs moral gound, to tuchanacka and final the end choices. You missed the fact here that it was not about paragon or renagande. It's about what you have to do. As I asked before, if standing by you morals to a "t" causes the death of everyone in the galexy.....What good are they?

3.If it just a game then I guess it's ok for your to stop whining and pick destory then...Since no one is really dieing , picking destory is not really genocide then.:whistle:

#146
Eterna

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Bill Casey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

If you want a high an noble path, get over yourself and pick control.


Control is more unethical than Destroy...
Don't pretend like it's high and noble...


Control: "I will act as Guardian for the many..I will give the many hope for a future...."
Destroy: Victory at any cost! Genocide rwaaar!

#147
dreman9999

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Bill Casey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

If you want a high an noble path, get over yourself and pick control.


Control is more unethical than Destroy...
Don't pretend like it's high and noble...


How? The ai is based ouy you(your shepard). That means you decide how the galexy is after the fall of the reapers. You can easilly decide not to interfer with life in the galexy out side of the extremes. The shepard ai is not going crazy or killing any one off, or reshaping any one. Anf the reaper will just blindly do what the shepard AI will tell them to do. Heck the Shepard AI and have the reaper decomition if it wants to.

How is it worse?

#148
Bill Casey

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You created an omnipotent being that wants to exercise its absolute authority over everyone...
It's nothing short of tyranny...


You made a god in your own image...
Worse than refuse...


Worse than a thousand genocides...
Disgusting...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:50 .


#149
JamieCOTC

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I do appreciate that BW did the EC in the first place, but the only thing I liked about it was the final goodbye and even then it added another plot hole. (Though Reapers might just be uber polite, they do wait for Shep to scan planets before giving chase again).

The idea behind the ending isn't that bad, that Shep essentially becomes the catalyst for change in the galaxy by making one all important choice, but the execution left a lot to be desired. The kid was especially a weak element to the story from the first time we meet him all the way until he the Catalyst uses him as a visage. It just doesn't work and is reminiscent of the issue w/ DA2 in which Bethany (or Carver) dies and we are supposed to feel sad about it through dialogue later in the game. I think had the Catalyst used someone Shepard (and we) knew as a visage then that would have added a personal element to the end and perhaps would have been much better.

So, thanks to BW for trying at least w/ the EC.

#150
EnvyTB075

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Eterna5 wrote...

Ratimir wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Whine, whine, whine, moan, moan, moan.


Stop adding bull**** to this conversation. Find something better to do with your time than throw a tempertantrum.


There is a conversaion here besides "The endings are poo!"? 


What is a conversaion? I know what a conversation is, but this word i do not know.

You guys are funny, expecting people to take you seriously when you communicate like 10 year olds who just learned how to use a keyboard.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 15 octobre 2012 - 04:51 .