251 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

destroy. reapers lose.
control. reapers win.
synthesis. reapers win.

...That was a pure emotional opinion. And here is the reasonable opinion:

Control
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (Shepard-Catalyst). Casualties: the original Catalyst, Shepard.

Synthesis 
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: only Shepard.

Destory
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (for a while). Casualties: Geth, EDI, people with vital synthetic implants. 

Refusal
Leviathans failed (for this time), Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: everyone except Leviathans.

No it isn't.  It is a simple them or us response.

why compicate it?  Just try to win.  oh sorry you can't.

[Seival]

dorktainian wrote...

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

destroy. reapers lose.
control. reapers win.
synthesis. reapers win.

...That was a pure emotional opinion. And here is the reasonable opinion:

Control
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (Shepard-Catalyst). Casualties: the original Catalyst, Shepard.

Synthesis 
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: only Shepard.

Destory
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (for a while). Casualties: Geth, EDI, people with vital synthetic implants. 

Refusal
Leviathans failed (for this time), Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: everyone except Leviathans.

No it isn't.  It is a simple them or us response.

why compicate it?  Just try to win.  oh sorry you can't.

The Reapers are just Leviathans' tool, which still serves its purpose. Destroying the tool will stop the tool's usage, but will not solve the problem it was created to solve. In case of Destroy, Leviathans will just start from the beginning, because galactic civilization will continue to make the same mistakes with AIs and synthetics...

...So, "them or us response" is quite short sighted. The only winners is case of Destroy are Leviathans. And galactic civilization will keep suffer from repeating the history till the new solution will be applied by Leviathans. And I'm sure the solution will be Synthesis eventually.

[dorktainian]

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

destroy. reapers lose.
control. reapers win.
synthesis. reapers win.

...That was a pure emotional opinion. And here is the reasonable opinion:

Control
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (Shepard-Catalyst). Casualties: the original Catalyst, Shepard.

Synthesis 
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: only Shepard.

Destory
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (for a while). Casualties: Geth, EDI, people with vital synthetic implants. 

Refusal
Leviathans failed (for this time), Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: everyone except Leviathans.

No it isn't.  It is a simple them or us response.

why compicate it?  Just try to win.  oh sorry you can't.

The Reapers are just Leviathans' tool, which still serves its purpose. Destroying the tool will stop the tool's usage, but will not solve the problem it was created to solve. In case of Destroy, Leviathans will just start from the beginning, because galactic civilization will continue to make the same mistakes with AIs and synthetics...

...So, "them or us response" is quite short sighted. The only winners is case of Destroy are Leviathans. And galactic civilization will keep suffer from repeating the history till the new solution will be applied by Leviathans. And I'm sure the solution will be Synthesis eventually.

sorry we'll have to disagree on this one.  simple yes.  shortsighted no.

also.. don't forget we didn't know about the leviathans until well after game release.  I go with what was presented initially on release.  The EC just over-complicates things.

Also as i've said before..... how will you eat?  surely to eat you have to canibalise as everything will be synthetic and therefore everything will be alike.  However nothing will be digestible.  

Still if you run out of bread at least you can eat the toaster.

[Nightwriter]

I will never understand the sheer vehemence of people's response to it. They react to it more indignantly than even Teltin or Horizon, both of which showed actual evidence of acute and abominable human suffering. People are seriously asking me to be more upset about making people glow green against their will than about seeing evidence of a child vivisection lab? Really? Why? Because Synthesis happened on a larger scale? Pfft. Changing people's bodies makes me feel uneasy, not like the vilest monster ever to crawl from the Earth since Hitler.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 16 octobre 2012 - 11:51 .

[AlexZebol]

Blah-blah-blah Synthetics always attack organics -it's a nonsence blah-blah-blah
Stop it people. Quarians were the reason of geth rebellion, not a geth! Organics made a mistake - synthetics were just defending themselves...
Synthesis, Control, Refusal - It's a bad chices, because we won't get what we were trying to do all ME game series - TO STOP THE REAPERS. The only way - their destruction. Synthesis and Control are indoctrinated persons' ideas given to them by Reapers ( Saren, TIM, Prothean renegades... )

[DrGunjah]

Seival wrote...
...So, "them or us response" is quite short sighted. The only winners is case of Destroy are Leviathans. And galactic civilization will keep suffer from repeating the history till the new solution will be applied by Leviathans. And I'm sure the solution will be Synthesis eventually.

We actually don't know what will happen after destroy. That's why the catalyst calls organic life "chaos". Maybe leviathans will take over the galaxy, maybe they will be killed. We don't know enough about them to predict the future.
But we know the catalyst already tried synthesis and it didn't work because "it can not be forced" but then 2 minutes later you jump in the beam and force it. How is it supposed to work this time? Because shepard made it to the citadel? So everyone that lost his father, mother, son, daughter, husband, wife, friends, whatever due to huge ruthless machines now suddenly likes and understands machines, because they become partly machines themself? What a load of crap.

[Ridwan]

Blargh Synthesis. Who the hell wants to make everyone a green glowing freak?

[Apocaleepse360]

I will never understand why people will argue over what choices everyone else made. It's your game, your playthrough and your damn choice.

[fr33stylez]

Nightwriter wrote...

I will never understand the sheer vehemence of people's response to it. They react to it more indignantly than even Teltin or Horizon, both of which showed actual evidence of acute and abominable human suffering. People are seriously asking me to be more upset about making people glow green against their will than about seeing evidence of a child vivisection lab? Really? Why? Because Synthesis happened on a larger scale? Pfft. Changing people's bodies makes me feel uneasy, not like the vilest monster ever to crawl from the Earth since Hitler.

For me, it's the sheer idiocy of the rationale used to justify such an option:

1) The need to stop a hypothetical conflict in which no evidence was ever presented in the trilogy (besides a new chatacter simply 'telling' you about it in the last 5 minutes)
2) Contradicts evidence presented throughoit the trilogy of synthetics not being hostile (the Geth could've remained synthetic enemies like in ME1, but BW choose to subvert this theme and make Geth and EDI cuddly)
3) Ultimately a theme of 'we can't work together unless we forcfully make everyone the same'. 
4) Reaching the Reaper's doorstep to just agree with the premise of the Reaping. Why did you fight for 3 games if a 5 minute convo was enough to justify Reaping?

I think all these points make Synthesis abhorrent.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 16 octobre 2012 - 01:51 .

[MB957]

as presented in game..to me..yeah..its bad...cuz it forces the change on everything and everyone in the galaxy.

I usually just headcannon it such that its a choice...and anyone can choose to be "synthisized"...and if they dont want it...they dont have to have it forced upon them.

as an option in game again..its a big fail..since all of ME1 was spent trying to stop saren from forcing synth on the galaxy.

what changed from ME1 to ME3 that synth is suddenly good? it confuses me.

to me..it seems like a trap. and those green eyes are creepy!

Modifié par MB957, 16 octobre 2012 - 01:56 .

[Argolas]

MB957 wrote...

I usually just headcannon it such that its a choice...and anyone can choose to be "synthisized"...and if they dont want it...they dont have to have it forced upon them.

But if only some get synthesized, what would be the point?

[Bocks]

Synthesis is godawful for obvious moral reasons.

Unless you can make a really, really, REALLY good argument for it and get every single person to accept it, it's wrong and has no place in Mass Effect, period.

[Seival]

dorktainian wrote...

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Seival wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

destroy. reapers lose.
control. reapers win.
synthesis. reapers win.

...That was a pure emotional opinion. And here is the reasonable opinion:

Control
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (Shepard-Catalyst). Casualties: the original Catalyst, Shepard.

Synthesis 
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: only Shepard.

Destory
Leviathans win, Shepard's legacy is alive (for a while). Casualties: Geth, EDI, people with vital synthetic implants. 

Refusal
Leviathans failed (for this time), Shepard's legacy is dead. Casualties: everyone except Leviathans.

No it isn't.  It is a simple them or us response.

why compicate it?  Just try to win.  oh sorry you can't.

The Reapers are just Leviathans' tool, which still serves its purpose. Destroying the tool will stop the tool's usage, but will not solve the problem it was created to solve. In case of Destroy, Leviathans will just start from the beginning, because galactic civilization will continue to make the same mistakes with AIs and synthetics...

...So, "them or us response" is quite short sighted. The only winners is case of Destroy are Leviathans. And galactic civilization will keep suffer from repeating the history till the new solution will be applied by Leviathans. And I'm sure the solution will be Synthesis eventually.

sorry we'll have to disagree on this one.  simple yes.  shortsighted no.

also.. don't forget we didn't know about the leviathans until well after game release.  I go with what was presented initially on release.  The EC just over-complicates things.

Also as i've said before..... how will you eat?  surely to eat you have to canibalise as everything will be synthetic and therefore everything will be alike.  However nothing will be digestible.  

Still if you run out of bread at least you can eat the toaster.

We didn't know about the Leviathans until recently indeed. So, it's obvious that I didn't make any conclusions involving these creatures until recently. What matters now is that Leviathans are already a huge part of the story and the game's universe. And we can't just ignore them, or think that they are "just another race". The apex race will survive and Control the galaxy as before. Control in their own way...

...Control is not just their ability. It's their phisiology, and way of thinking. They can't exist without such a deep connection to all organic and half-organic beings... In case of Synthesis they will have the same deep connection even to pure synthetic beings, by the way. And sooner or later Synthesis will be performed anyway.

Leviathans are the ultimate winners no matter which way of stopping the Reapers did your Shepard choose. You can only choose the price for Leviathans' win and the initial sebsequent way for galactic civilization to go. And choosing the price depends ONLY on your Shepard's way of thinking. Shepard knows about the consequenses, and who is real "boss" in the end. Shepard knows everything, and just needs to ask herself which prise is she ready to pay.

 - Does she want to betray her friends to Destroy the dangerous tool, and let Leviathans to find another way? 
 - Or maybe she is ready to Control that tool and cooperate with the Leviathans to find another way together?
 - Or maybe she knows that the Final Solution is already in her hands and all she needs is to sacrefice herself?
 - Or maybe she wants to put her pride above everything/everyone, and postpond the solution for unknown time?

...Tough call, isn't it?

...This is how I see the situation.

[Eterna]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

How are people with Synthetic implants casualties?
Everyone you knew that had them survived as long as you didn't kill them in ME2 or during ME3.


Also twitter is canon, twitter says EDI is not made of Reaper tech so she didn't die.

Why is she on the memorial wall then?

[The Night Mammoth]

Eterna5 wrote...

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

How are people with Synthetic implants casualties?
Everyone you knew that had them survived as long as you didn't kill them in ME2 or during ME3.


Also twitter is canon, twitter says EDI is not made of Reaper tech so she didn't die.

Why is she on the memorial wall then?

Joker is fooling around. We know he's a fan of bad jokes at emotional periods of time. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Seival]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

How are people with Synthetic implants casualties?
Everyone you knew that had them survived as long as you didn't kill them in ME2 or during ME3.


Also twitter is canon, twitter says EDI is not made of Reaper tech so she didn't die.

Let's not forget that the original Catalyst says to Shepard "You are also partially synthetic", suggesting that all people with vital synthetic augmentation will suffer...

...What if a quarian volunteer has geth integrated into his/her suit/implants to boost the immune system?
...What if some human has an artificial heart with some complicated software to control it properly?

I think most Destroyers didn't consider that at all. But even if not the case, betraying EDI and the Geth alone should make you feel bad.



EDIT: and thinking that "twitter is canon" is just silly. The game has the final answer, not twitter

Modifié par Seival, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:27 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Seival wrote...
Let's not forget that the original Catalyst says to Shepard "You are also partially synthetic", suggesting that all people with vital synthetic augmentation will suffer...

...What if a quarian volunteer has geth intergated into his/her suit/implants to boost the immune system?
...What if some human has an artificial heart with some complicated software to control it properly?

I think most Destroyers didn't consider that at all. But even if not the case, betraying EDI and the Geth alone should make you feel bad.

And yet in a high-EMS destroy, Shepard can survive.  If Shep, who's practically an undead cyborg at this point, can survive a high-EMS destroy, people with fewer synthetic components probably can too.  Thanks to the wonders of plot fail, we will never actually know.

For the (apparently) rare unicorns who DID think Destroy through, it usually boils down to the following--eradicating every last scrap of the Reapers and their thralls from the galaxy is worth almost any price, and everyone fighting the war was willing to pay that price.  I'll never say it felt great destroying EDI and the geth, but TBH I would've nuked a lot more than that if it's what it took to get rid of the Reapers.

It really comes down to priorities.  For me, no Reapers, full stop, was the priority.  Control and Synthesis didn't do that.  They grant peace but not under terms that I found acceptable.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .

[AresKeith]

*Gasp* Seival went against BW's twitter statements

[Seival]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Seival wrote...
Let's not forget that the original Catalyst says to Shepard "You are also partially synthetic", suggesting that all people with vital synthetic augmentation will suffer...

...What if a quarian volunteer has geth intergated into his/her suit/implants to boost the immune system?
...What if some human has an artificial heart with some complicated software to control it properly?

I think most Destroyers didn't consider that at all. But even if not the case, betraying EDI and the Geth alone should make you feel bad.

And yet in a high-EMS destroy, Shepard can survive.  If Shep, who's practically an undead cyborg at this point, can survive a high-EMS destroy, people with fewer synthetic components probably can too.  Thanks to the wonders of plot fail, we will never actually know.

For the (apparently) rare unicorns who DID think Destroy through, it usually boils down to the following--eradicating every last scrap of the Reapers and their thralls from the galaxy is worth almost any price, and everyone fighting the war was willing to pay that price.  I'll never say it felt great destroying EDI and the geth, but TBH I would've nuked a lot more than that if it's what it took to get rid of the Reapers.

It really comes down to priorities.  For me, no Reapers, full stop, was the priority.  Control and Synthesis didn't do that.  They grant peace but not under terms that I found acceptable.

We don't know if Shepard really survived after that "breath scene". And we don't know how much does she suffer.

Let's say implants just turned off for a while. Shepard fall on the ground, but then got up. It's ok.

Now let's say there is a soldier with similar implants running from cover to cover among some skyscraper ruins. Implants turned off while he ran, he falls from the large height and broke his neck. "Nice one", isn't it? Who knows how many such accidents can possibly Destroy cause?

...Still sure you sacrificed just EDI and the Geth?
...But more importantly, aren't only EDI and the Geth deaths sad enough?

Modifié par Seival, 16 octobre 2012 - 09:55 .

[Mr.House]

People with implants don't die in high ems destroy. If that was so then the quarians, Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Jack, all her students, Wrex, Jacob, Samara and her daughter would all be dead, including Shepard. The ending proves this does not happen.

[Seival]

Mr.House wrote...

People with implants don't die in high ems destroy. If that was so then the quarians, Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Jack, all her students, Wrex, Jacob, Samara and her daughter would all be dead, including Shepard. The ending proves this does not happen.

Biotic augmentation is not a vital synthetic implant. Artificial hearts, immune system boosters and other things like that are. We don't know exactly how badly did quarians suffer in case of Destroy. They could lose half of remaining population due to immune boosters failures.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

People with implants don't die in high ems destroy. If that was so then the quarians, Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Jack, all her students, Wrex, Jacob, Samara and her daughter would all be dead, including Shepard. The ending proves this does not happen.

Biotic augmentation is not a vital synthetic implant. Artificial hearts, immune system boosters and other things like that are. We don't know exactly how badly did quarians suffer in case of Destroy. They could lose half of remaining population due to immune boosters failures.

So Shepard´s implants aren´t vital?

[Mr.House]

Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

People with implants don't die in high ems destroy. If that was so then the quarians, Kaidan, Liara, Miranda, Jack, all her students, Wrex, Jacob, Samara and her daughter would all be dead, including Shepard. The ending proves this does not happen.

Biotic augmentation is not a vital synthetic implant. Artificial hearts, immune system boosters and other things like that are. We don't know exactly how badly did quarians suffer in case of Destroy. They could lose half of remaining population due to immune boosters failures.

Biotic implants are part of the brain, it can cause alot of damage. You are simply speculating on what you think and want to happen, when it's simply not true. In-game evidence proves this.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Seival wrote...
...Still sure you sacrificed just EDI and the Geth?
...But more importantly, isn't only EDI and the Geth death sad enough?

Eradicating every last scrap of the Reapers and their thralls from the galaxy is worth almost any price, and everyone fighting the war was willing to pay that price. 

Does that sound happy to you?

I loved Legion--he was one of my favorite characters, and the fact that his sacrifice ended up mostly in vain bites harder than just about anything in Destroy.  It's sad he died in vain.  It's sad Mordin died curing the genophage.  Those half-a-million batarians in Arrival?  Even that's sad.  But that's the nature of the Reaper war, and there's no sense in letting personal grief or guilt cripple the mission objective, which as I understood it was to destroy the Reapers.  No matter the cost.  In a meta sense, even if Shepard died in all three endings regardless, or could only live in one of the other endings, I'd still pick Destroy.

Let me say that I don't find anything inherently wrong with the other endings, other than how poorly they were told.  I'm just trying to explain my logic for high-EMS destroy.