251 réponses à ce sujet

[Foxhound2121]

FOX216BC wrote...

Synthesis=the individual cease to exist.
If i'm wrong then eventually there is going to be a Reaper problem.

Pretty much this^
So no matter what, it had to be mass indoctrination one way or another, but Synthesis people will always ignore that.

[CosmicGnosis]

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

[Foxhound2121]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

If that's true, then synthesis wouldn't be much different than your grandfather walking around with a pacemaker. In such a case, nothing has changed. Reapers will find a reason to start reapin once again.

[bleetman]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

Characters undergoing bizarre and contradictory personality changes in the immediate aftermath tends to make people suspicious of the whole thing.

That said, I don't really believe it's the case myself. I'm more inclined to conclude the writers just didn't care.

Modifié par bleetman, 17 octobre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Mr.House]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

So why does Javik seem to not care that he was violated or that the Reapers are not dead? Better yet why does no one seem to care the Reapers are still alive and they where changed against their will? The fact that NO one seems to care right there shows there is mind control in work because characters that should be against this are not,

Modifié par Mr.House, 17 octobre 2012 - 01:38 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Mr.House wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

So why does Javik seem to not care that he was violated or that the Reapers are not dead? Better yet why does no one seem to care the Reapers are still alive and they where changed against their will? The fact that NO one seems to care right there shows there is mind control in work because characters that should be against this are not,

Why do people not care in Control? Why does Javik not kill himself in any of the endings if he touches the Echo Shard? Why are most Synthesis slides the exact same as Destroy/Control slides?

[Kileyan]

Synthesis doesn't make sense because the Reaper kid leader wants to end the synthetics vs organics thing forever. If we can't reconcile that, the starkid will just destroy us all and continue the cycle.

If all synthesis does is give organics nifty new internal computers and whatnot, but doesn't actually change who they are and how they think, then how does it fulfill the starkids agenda........it doesn't.

It must do more, it must change how people think, it definitely must change organics on a fundamental level, more than just the nifty new toys.

I'm sorry, I can't help but think synthesis changes people for the "good", it forcefully changes them and makes them not who they were before it happened. I personally might like some bionic limbs that let me run fast or lungs that let me free dive for hours at a time.

I don't want any of that if I won't be me anymore, which is what synthesis suggests.

Modifié par Kileyan, 17 octobre 2012 - 01:49 .

[CosmicGnosis]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

So why does Javik seem to not care that he was violated or that the Reapers are not dead? Better yet why does no one seem to care the Reapers are still alive and they where changed against their will? The fact that NO one seems to care right there shows there is mind control in work because characters that should be against this are not,

Why do people not care in Control? Why does Javik not kill himself in any of the endings if he touches the Echo Shard? Why are most Synthesis slides the exact same as Destroy/Control slides?

Exactly.

And what is the point of showing a restored Tuchanka? And what is the point of showing maskless quarians? Are these supposed to be hints that everyone is indoctrinated? 

It doesn't make sense to show the technological triumphs of these species if they are merely thralls of the Reapers.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 octobre 2012 - 01:53 .

[Kileyan]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

If that's true, then synthesis wouldn't be much different than your grandfather walking around with a pacemaker. In such a case, nothing has changed. Reapers will find a reason to start reapin once again.

This.

The point of the starkid is he will only stop the reaperizing if he thinks the possibility of the endless cycle of synthetics vs organics is over.........forever.

If all the synthesis choice did was give the organics some shiny new memory modules or ipod jacks, then it would solve none of the reapers wishes and required parameters to stop their reaping. It has to do more.

Think about it, the reapers have been doing this for all we know, millions of years. Suddenly they stop and never do it again because you had a usb port and ipod jack implanted on the side of your head? I don't think so, that synthesis process had to have changed fundamentally who that organic was and how they think, control if you will.

[AdmiralCheez]

Kileyan wrote...

If all synthesis does is give organics nifty new internal computers and whatnot, but doesn't actually change who they are and how they think, then how does it fulfill the starkids agenda........it doesn't.

It must do more, it must change how people think, it definitely must change organics on a fundamental level, more than just the nifty new toys.

Agreed.  When those turian soldiers all stood up and stopped firing...  I knew things weren't good.

They're turians.  They don't.  Stop.  Fighting.

And the smiling asari?  Are you telling me people are just COMFORTABLE with those Reapers looming overhead all the time?

Plus, if we all "understand" each other now, if there's been some sort of widespread sharing of perspectives and memories, then nobody's the same person anymore.  In fact, we're pretty much all one being.

Forcing everyone to become part of the same thing isn't peace; it's domination.  Maybe everyone's happy-smiley now, but does that make it right?  Do people even have free will anymore?  Do they have a say in their own destinies, in their own emotions?

It's even more insidious than Control, if you ask me, since you are altering the minds of everyone, not just the Reapers.  You can argue that it's a "higher existence" all you want, that they're "better off," and I'll fire right back with my primitive, individualistic sentiment, because that's what I fought to protect, damn it!

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It doesn't make sense to show the technological triumphs of these species if they are merely thralls of the Reapers.

The Reapers see time on the order of thousands and millions of years.

Let's say it takes time for the nanites to completely convert and individual (a la Paul Grayson).  Wouldn't you, as a Reaper, patiently wait for things to take full effect, playing along as the helpful new ally in the meantime?

[AdmiralCheez]

@DirtyMouthSally: Little does Bioware know, we read too deeply into eeeeeverythiiiing....

[Bill Casey]

Mind Control is typically shown in a visual medium by altering someone's eyes...
Synthesis goes out of its way to show not only eyes being rewritten, but neurons as well...

The Catalyst states plainly that he is the solution to chaos...
He states that organic life will be "perfected"...
The ability to make our own decisions is inherently chaotic, imperfect and leads to conflict...

You add this to a narrative in which trying to cooperate with the Reapers invariably leads to utter consumption and usurping of free will time and time again. The ending takes these giant brainwashing machines made of dead people, and has them stick around as giant teachers...

Synthesis makes claims which are part and parcel for this genre of dystopian futurism...
It's no mistake they reference Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" in their notes twice...

Honestly, if you can look at the Synthesis ending and not think "brainwashing for utopia" you are naive as all hell...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 octobre 2012 - 02:29 .

[CosmicGnosis]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It doesn't make sense to show the technological triumphs of these species if they are merely thralls of the Reapers.

The Reapers see time on the order of thousands and millions of years.

Let's say it takes time for the nanites to completely convert and individual (a la Paul Grayson).  Wouldn't you, as a Reaper, patiently wait for things to take full effect, playing along as the helpful new ally in the meantime?

But it seems so trivial to fool the player by showing the krogan and quarians succeed in restoring their cultures. It makes no sense to me. Showing the restoration of Tuchanka and Rannoch (and peace with the geth) strongly implies that these species have learned something about themselves, that they can rebuild what they had lost so long ago.

[CosmicGnosis]

DirtyMouthSally wrote...

If I'm not mistaken, Synthesis is supposedly the "best" ending.  I can't remember if a dev said that or not, but they seem to like it anyway.  I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not.  Edit:  They would probably deny it now. 

This is a quote from the leaked script:

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 octobre 2012 - 02:35 .

[TheDeadYoshi]

Synthesis is too master-racey for me. I celebrate peoples differences not their similarities.

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But it seems so trivial to fool the player by showing the krogan and quarians succeed in restoring their cultures. It makes no sense to me. Showing the restoration of Tuchanka and Rannoch (and peace with the geth) strongly implies that these species have learned something about themselves, that they can rebuild what they had lost so long ago.

Three things:

First off, the material in the Extended Cut was meant to provide closure and a feeling of victory for ALL endings (even Refuse, a new option that always results in failure, got its own unique sequence).

Secondly, there is SUPPOSED to be a certain amount of ambiguity in the endings so whoever's-in-charge can get off to their "speculation" fetish.  So, naturally, there are going to be mixed signals and open ends.

Finally, lots of people who've been indoctrinated have claimed to have learned greater truths about the universe through the Reapers.

The geth/quarian slide could very well have been a case of two or three of these points overlapping.

[AlanC9]

But it's one thing for the game to lie to a possibly-indoctrinated Shepard; it's quite another to lie to me.

The epilogues aren't supposed to be from Shepard's POV. Even in Control the Sheplyst is explicitly a new being.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2012 - 03:22 .

[Major Crackhead]

Mr.House wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

But there is no evidence that Synthesis destroys the individual. No evidence! I don't understand this insistence to declare that Synthesis, without a single doubt, turns everyone into Reaper slaves.

It seems very intellectually dishonest to me.

So why does Javik seem to not care that he was violated or that the Reapers are not dead? Better yet why does no one seem to care the Reapers are still alive and they where changed against their will? The fact that NO one seems to care right there shows there is mind control in work because characters that should be against this are not,

Well who knows? My Javik was going to an hero himself anyway, and with me picking Synthesis he probably has an even better reason to do that now.

[Argolas]

InHarmsWay wrote...

Argolas wrote...


I just wanted to add that the Reapers can be controlled by the Leviathans directly. If there was any countermeasure that works for a reaper, they would have found it by then. You know, they had ages...

It is most likely that synthetic-organic hybrids are the easiest to control, the Collectors are another example. This would explain why the reapers are like that, and it would explain as well why Catalyst recommends Synthesis so strongly and is angry when it is not available.

Yet the reapers knew about the Crucible, but didn't develop a countermeasure against it.

No. They developed Synthesis instead.

Modifié par Argolas, 17 octobre 2012 - 11:54 .

[DrGunjah]

Seival wrote...
I think that I've seen that before. This is speculation. Game doesn't lie about EDI and the Geth deaths. Those deaths were not shown in details, but we all know the real price for Destroy: at least EDI and the Geth. In the worst case scenario - even most people with vital sinthetic implants, which is logical, because EDI (non-reaper tech) and the Geth (with reaper code upgrades) died.

The only fact is, that we don't have evidence for one or the other. Though while The Twilight God uses logic in his post, you say stuff like "not shown in detail, but we all know...". You speculate about things and then call them fact. If you argue that things happen even if we don't clearly see them, then I can also argue that in sythesis all organics get transformed into little puppies, because you know, we don't see it but we all know it's true!!!!

 - All complicated enough synthetic devices were destroyed: VIs, and AIs. 
 - Ship's targeting computer was not affected, but ship's VI (if any) was destroyed.
 - Any vital synthetic implant can have a VI controlling it, and giving info and suggestions to the user.
 - We also know that some quarinas allowed geth inside their suits and implants. Geth destruction will cause critical system failure in this case. All those quarians will suffer.

I guess this is fact because you wrote it, hm?
You remember the database in the heretics base? What makes this database different from other databases?
Can you tell me how an already fired beam should detect a VI on a storage media? It's the same issue with "reaper code". Maybe it can be distinguished from other code but not by a beam that has already been fired.
Even the catalyst says something like "the crucible doesn't discriminate. all synthetics will die, even you are partly synthetic". But since we don't see evidence for this claim he either is just wrong (unlikely) or he lies (to make destroy look bad).

[Foolsfolly]

Kileyan wrote...

Synthesis doesn't make sense because the Reaper kid leader wants to end the synthetics vs organics thing forever. If we can't reconcile that, the starkid will just destroy us all and continue the cycle.

If all synthesis does is give organics nifty new internal computers and whatnot, but doesn't actually change who they are and how they think, then how does it fulfill the starkids agenda........it doesn't.

It must do more, it must change how people think, it definitely must change organics on a fundamental level, more than just the nifty new toys.

I'm sorry, I can't help but think synthesis changes people for the "good", it forcefully changes them and makes them not who they were before it happened. I personally might like some bionic limbs that let me run fast or lungs that let me free dive for hours at a time.

I don't want any of that if I won't be me anymore, which is what synthesis suggests.

Exactly. If the Catalyst honestly believes this crap about organics vs synthetics than putting a few cybernetic parts in an organic doesn't change the organic into loving synthetics. To achieve this change in personality across all organic species to love synthetics means it must change the way all organics think.

Which is a terrible violation. I believe in peace between organics and synthetics. I believe in peace between all organics. But conflict will always arise. And sometimes that conflict results in war. This is preferrable to me over manipuating the minds of all species across the galaxy.

Hell peace doesn't mean much if you have no choice to be peaceful.

[Volc19]

I dislike Synthesis mostly because of what it stands for, and what it might mean when we eventually travel out of our Galaxy.

The choice of Synthesis is based off of the idea that difference is dangerous, and should be purged. Unless we are all one type of thing, there will never be peace. I wholly disagree with that, mostly because of the 2.9 games that have told me that difference can be overcome and respected for the sake of unity. This is why I didn't like the Geth in ME3. They do a complete 180 in their philosophy and try to become as similar to everyone else as possible. The 'alien' Geth that saw individuality as a funny little quirk of organic life that doesn't make much sense were much better.

Also, what happens when new, non-synthesized life is met? Now, while the general populace may not care about difference, the Reapers still do. The only reason the Harvest stopped was because the Synthesized galaxy has no need to be harvested. So, either we go along with the Reapers and either kill or upgrade the new life, or fight another Reaper-war to stop them.