243 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Yet we see this same thread, asking, arguing and appealing for no paraphrases by different people here at least once every two weeks.

No. We see the same people jumping onto the same thread at least once every two weeks.

[upsettingshorts]

Not to mention, if I didn't find going to a game's board to complain about how they're making games wrong on a bi-weekly basis tedious and depressing, I'd be making just those threads on The Witcher 1 boards myself.

...except they changed it in the sequel.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:10 .

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
And you know what? Dues Ex was a very cinematic game with a voice protagonist. It had exactly the sort of stylistic but unobtrusive UI that DA II seemed to be attempting.

Sorry, but Deus Ex also had a set character with a set personality. It's a very different style. It was also inconsistent with its dialogue interface. That's not a model I would want to follow, though I found the game definitely did some interesting things.

[The Hierophant]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What's this? Someone wants me to post an image of Deus Ex: Human Revolution's conversations?

Because they're an excellent example of doing what BioWare wants to do while providing the player with lots of information!

*snip*

Look at that wheel for easy navigation.

Look at those one word tones that can take up very little space and require no icon. Heck, I bet one word is easier to localize than the paraphrases.

Look at that box with a longer bit of text in it.

And you know what? Dues Ex was a very cinematic game with a voice protagonist. It had exactly the sort of stylistic but unobtrusive UI that DA II seemed to be attempting.

There would have been less complaints(playing devil's advocate) if Da2 labeled it's tones like DX:HR's, and a voice actor who's voice meshes well with most pc looks(Kevin Conroy) rather than Boulton who's delivery of some lines were derpy. Looking back at the complaints of the voiced pc, i think the main issue is the performance of the va, and their voice not grating people nerves after an hour of gameplay.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:21 .

[upsettingshorts]

Unlikely. Your odds of achieving consensus on the relative quality of the performance of any given VA are slim to none.

For example, I wouldn't consider the performance behind Adam Jensen particularly memorable, yet the one thing I'm bummed about for Dragon Age 3 is the fact Nicholas Boulton won't be back voicing the protagonist.  Unless BioWare's pulling a fast one on us and Hawke is returning, but I doubt it.

Furthermore I preferred Mark Meer to Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, and while I didn't really enjoy Jo Wyatt's performance as female Hawke, I thought she was fantastic as the Imperial Agent in SWTOR.  Not to mention every single English voice actor in The Witcher games was downright painful, and I'd now pay real money to beat whoever voiced Dandelion senseless with some kind of fish.

This kind of thing is even more subjective and impossible to measure than dialogue system preferences. I'm confident in saying a great deal of the disparity in feedback regarding voiceovers in Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Deus Ex, and The Witcher has to do with the expectations of each fanbase, and less to do with any given system's particular execution. But I can't prove that, it's just a strong hunch.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:29 .

[Maria Caliban]

David Gaider wrote...

Sorry, but Deus Ex also had a set character with a set personality. It's a very different style. It was also inconsistent with its dialogue interface. That's not a model I would want to follow, though I found the game definitely did some interesting things.

Oh.

Well, at least I don't have to go searching for DE:HR pictures whenever this conversation comes up anymore.

Did you like the challenge conversations in that game?

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Did you like the challenge conversations in that game?

I did! That was a very interesting mechanic. Nice way of making dialogue an active, gameplay-driven experience.

[The Hierophant]

@Upsettingshorts - I preferred Meer over Hale too, but liked Wyatt over Boulton, the va in TW series was average to me, but Dandelion's va didn't grate my nerves as much as it did you and my brother though. In a nutshell assumed quality/preference varies based on the individual making it all too subjective in the end.

[deuce985]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Unlikely. Your odds of achieving consensus on the relative quality of the performance of any given VA are slim to none.

For example, I wouldn't consider the performance behind Adam Jensen particularly memorable, yet the one thing I'm bummed about for Dragon Age 3 is the fact Nicholas Boulton won't be back voicing the protagonist.  Unless BioWare's pulling a fast one on us and Hawke is returning, but I doubt it.

Furthermore I preferred Mark Meer to Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, and while I didn't really enjoy Jo Wyatt's performance as female Hawke, I thought she was fantastic as the Imperial Agent in SWTOR.  Not to mention every single English voice actor in The Witcher games was downright painful, and I'd now pay real money to beat whoever voiced Dandelion senseless with some kind of fish.

This kind of thing is even more subjective and impossible to measure than dialogue system preferences. I'm confident in saying a great deal of the disparity in feedback regarding voiceovers in Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Deus Ex, and The Witcher has to do with the expectations of each fanbase, and less to do with any given system's particular execution. But I can't prove that, it's just a strong hunch.

Yea, I'm not quite sure how anyone can say Witcher has better VOs than Bioware games. Most of the VOs in Witcher 1/Witcher 2 aren't very professional, IMO. Making crude humor and spewing vulgar remarks isn't always "funny" either. It's juvenile and not well-placed like a lot of Bioware writing does with their humor...

It seems to me that Witcher is BSN's baby. I loved both games but when people bring it up in discussions on BSN, it's often with double standards. It's kinda funny to read honestly.

I personally favor Jennifer Hale over Meer myself. I like them both though.

[Allan Schumacher]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Did you like the challenge conversations in that game?

I did! That was a very interesting mechanic. Nice way of making dialogue an active, gameplay-driven experience.

Since echoing David's thoughts makes me feel more legitimate, I also was a big fan of them.  I also like how there's a degree of randomness to it as well (in that you can't just memorize what to choose).


I also found LA Noire's take a interesting, although not quite as fleshed out (and ultimately deterministic).  The idea of having the player make reads on the character, as well as combining facts to challenge what the NPC is playing, was pretty interesting!

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:21 .

[jillabender]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And you know what? Dues Ex was a very cinematic game with a voice protagonist. It had exactly the sort of stylistic but unobtrusive UI that DA II seemed to be attempting.

Sorry, but Deus Ex also had a set character with a set personality. It's a very different style. It was also inconsistent with its dialogue interface. That's not a model I would want to follow, though I found the game definitely did some interesting things.

Having a voiced protagonist without a firmly set personality certainly creates its own challenges. With that said, I'm sorry if I came across as implying I know better than you what those challenges are, and how they should be addressed – that wasn't my intention (just putting that out there because I detected a bit of frustration in some of your earlier posts).

I recognize that I don't really know enough to have a clear idea of what kind of feedback the developers might find helpful. Most of the time, my goal is just to articulate my experiences in a way that other players might find interesting. I really enjoy reading posts that help me look at my approach to gaming from a different perspective, so I try to give some of that back.

(Or, to put it more accurately, this is a safe place where I can be ridiculously analytical and nerdy to my heart's content, and people will be slightly less weirded out than they would be if I geeked out to that degree face-to-face. )

Upsettingshorts wrote…

[…] Not to mention every single English voice actor in The Witcher games was downright painful, and I'd now pay real money to beat whoever voiced Dandelion senseless with some kind of fish.

Haha – I have to admit, I started playing The Witcher, but didn't get very far into it, because everyone seemed to talk in a really bizarre monotone, and it was just too distracting! If you've seen the movie Amadeus, my reaction was like the Emperor's when he's watching the dancers rehearsing a scene from Mozart's Marriage of Figaro without any music:
"What are they doing?  I don't understand. Is it… modern?"

Modifié par jillabender, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:10 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet we see this same thread, asking, arguing and appealing for no paraphrases by different people here at least once every two weeks.

No. We see the same people jumping onto the same thread at least once every two weeks.

And we convince new people every time.  We keep the idea of a silent protagonist alive so people don't forget what its benefits were.  I don't want to see people unable to play BG or DAO in 15 years because they can't figure out how (a  problem that has already befallen Ultima IV).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 octobre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Sainna]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet we see this same thread, asking, arguing and appealing for no paraphrases by different people here at least once every two weeks.

No. We see the same people jumping onto the same thread at least once every two weeks.

And we convince new people every time.  We keep the idea of a silent protagonist alive so people don't forget what its benefits were.  I don't want to see people unable to play BG or DAO in 15 years because they can't figure out how (a  problem that has already befallen Ultima IV).

You really dont xD! But sure, stay positive O_O

[Firky]

^ Now there's an interesting point. And something on my mind at the moment. (But I'm the kind of person who misses the things that were lost between parser and point and click adventures.)

Surely all future games/RPGs wont be voiced protagonist. That's a scary thought. I think it's scary because I can't really imagine ways to improve things like paraphrasing and tone icons very much.

I'm sure there are ways. Like, point and click adventures got simpler and simpler, from SCUMM to just one action for look/interact. But, recently, there was Resonance which reinvented the interface somewhat. But, there's still no trying to guess the correct commands, "pick up broom", "sweep the floor." Something is always lost.

[Allan Schumacher]

Surely all future games/RPGs wont be voiced protagonist. That's a scary thought. I think it's scary because I can't really imagine ways to improve things like paraphrasing and tone icons very much.

If the demand for silent protagonists is significant, combining this with the barriers of entry getting softer with digital distribution and even crowd sourcing, I'd be exceptionally surprised if ALL games had voiced protagonists.

But, there's still no trying to guess the correct commands, "pick up broom", "sweep the floor." Something is always lost.

I do not miss this at all though. I also disliked how text entry typically let you cheat through games with metaknowledge (I know I can just type "rune" to this guy, even though my character wouldn't have any inclination to actually do so).

[areuexperienced]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet we see this same thread, asking, arguing and appealing for no paraphrases by different people here at least once every two weeks.

No. We see the same people jumping onto the same thread at least once every two weeks.

And we convince new people every time.  We keep the idea of a silent protagonist alive so people don't forget what its benefits were.  I don't want to see people unable to play BG or DAO in 15 years because they can't figure out how (a  problem that has already befallen Ultima IV).

I wonder how many Mr. Gaider & co. convince then and is what you do really going to boil down to having a bigger tally than your opposition? Because, I'm sure, for every one you convince there's probably one that's tired of the same horse being brought for flogging for the umpteenth time.

[Firky]

@Allan When AAAs do stuff and then other AAAs do the same stuff, it does send me into a panic. For me, it's that powerless to influence the giant machinations within gaming thing, which may be part of why this topic keeps coming up.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I do not miss this at all though. I also disliked how text entry typically let you cheat through games with metaknowledge (I know I can just type "rune" to this guy, even though my character wouldn't have any inclination to actually do so).

I certainly wouldn't consider Ultima IV perfect. I'm playing it at the moment. And I did play it at the time. But the point Sylvius raises about how modern gamers can't play old stuff, linked to AAA trends is an interesting one. I'm trying to picture how people who had never played silent protag migh approach it. Also, this. http://www.brainygam...unplayable.html

PS. It's like, with parsers, you've lost that cheating thing, but you've also lost a creative thought process. I do take issues with games, especially AAAs, "improving" genres and interface.

Modifié par Firky, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:14 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Eh, I struggle to play Ultima IV (I'm a fan of the Ultima series, but typically focus on ones like 6, 7, and Serpent Isle) now because I frankly feel the game is just dated. Though I didn't exactly find it easy when I first played it either (or even Ultima 6 which was my introduction to the franchise). I ran around not knowing what to do, but eh the world was interesting enough that I didn't really care a whole lot. Ultima VII came at a time when I was maturing as a person, but even then I think the game is a lot better in presenting how the narrative is laid out. Ultima VI is a lot clearer than I remember (especially since replaying it recently), though my growth as a gamer has also illustrated just how much shorter and easier the game is than I remember when I played it in 1990.

You can surmise that perhaps I am "forgetting" how to play the older games (although with U6 I disagree), but much like how I love the new XCOM more than the original, it's because in many ways I prefer the way the new one plays. The new one doesn't do EVERYTHING better than the old one, but it does enough that trying to go back and play the original makes its faults stand out that much more (and as awesome as the original is, it still has a lot of faults).


AAAs are typically risk averse. But if there are people that want more niche mechanics, it's getting easier to deliver them now than 10-15 years ago.


I disagree, however, that the "creative thought process" is really challenged by having me try to figure out specifically what words the game designer required me to use because the text interpreter is archaic by today's standards. It's doubly frustrating when the game ostensibly recognizes what I'm trying to say, but encourages me to try saying it differently (the distinction between the "letter" and "note" in Police Quest 2 for example).

And I loathe the inventory mangement of U6 compared to that of U7, for example. So many wasteful clicks/keystrokes but that's just the way it was done back then.

[Firky]

Well. At least they brought "touch self" from the Leisure Suit Larry parser days to the hand cursor.

That's a good point about U6 and U7 inventory. I can't really think of anything redeeming about U6's inventory, except nostalgia value. And I really do like shuffling things around in a backpack. It's like the difference between a nice backpack full of watermelons in The Witcher and a list in The Witcher 2.

I do tend to think there is always something lost, even if it's not immediately apparent. I don't think it's necessarily a problem, and it can be mitigated, but frequently isn't. Like, I thought DA2's combat was "better" than Origins for many reasons. Everything from the rare treat of struggling on nightmare to having to be incredibly mobile and anticipating enemies heralding attacks. But stuff like the tactical camera being lost? That's essential for mobile combat.

More on topic, I'm not really sure how concerns raised by people who hate voiced protag can be mitigated, though. Maybe that's an important question.

(PS. For me, much of the joy of old school adventuring did come from trying to figure out words. Often times, imperfect qualities in games are endearing. But, yeah, especially if nostalgia is attached.)

Modifié par Firky, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Grrr... reading through that link has actually angered me. It wasn't until an insightful comment made me say "thank you."

Do we call anyone that's grown up in a city but never been to a farm weak or useless compared to the farmers or farming ancestors, just because they have a completely different skillset to survive the city?

The fact that the teacher would "take an arrow to the heart" demonstrates how his nostalgia clouds his perspective. He likely grew up with Ultima IV, and it was a game he really enjoyed. He has that attachment to the game, in spite of its limitations, and when other people cannot see it due to its age, it literally wounds him.


Here's the thing: Games in general are a lot more accessible (and in general just more accepted) now. The skillset required to simply use a computer in the times when Ultima IV came out immediately filter out the types of people that would even be able to play it.

I think what's much more likely the case, is that this teacher is talking with people that frankly wouldn't have enjoyed Ultima IV very much if the first time they picked it up was back when it was released. It's less about "people are forgetting about how to play the older games" and more about "there's a greater variety of people out there now that are able to play games" coupled with "There are enough games out today that appeal to a diverse enough set of skillsets."


I see in these comments the usual pejoratives about the "console generation" and things like that, and I don't think they even realize they're doing it. They're speaking down to people who simply don't have the same interest in games that they do, but fallaciously assume that these people would still be gamers in the late 80s and better equipped to deal with an Ultima IV. To them, it's not "these people just wouldn't like this game that I love at any time" but rather "these people don't like a game I loved back in the day, and therefore it must be some systemic problem with how things are being lost in gaming today" rather than "things have been added to gaming today which allows these people that otherwise would NOT play games to now play games."

On that note I need to head to bed, but after reading most of the comments I started to worry that I'd damage my orthodontics.

(PS. For me, much of the joy of old school adventuring did come from
trying to figure out words. Often times, imperfect qualities in games
are endearing. But, yeah, especially if nostalgia is attached.)

As an analogue:  For you, how much of the joy of simply using a computer at that time came from trying to figure out how it worked?  Do you think that that interest and the skills learned from it carried over into what you were looking for from a game?

While I was playing RPGs, my Mom was playing Hard Hat Mack.  Very different games.  I was the one putzing around with getting BASIC working on the Apple II though, not her.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Firky]

I mucked around with BASIC. For me, it has always been about mastering systems, though. Honestly, it earned me praise from my dad, who I believe thought he was giving me the great gift of lateral thinking.

When I talk about things being "lost" there's a hefty emotional component that transcends everything from changed mechanics to accessibility. Reading these forums, it seems like a lot of people can relate to gaming's emotional side.

But, my aim isn't to upset anyone. My apologies. I'm out.

(For the record, I think it's great that games are available to a wide range of people these days. I'm aware I was a lucky kid.)

(Edit: But I do have to say that I disagree to this, To them, it's not "these people just wouldn't like this game that I love at any time" but rather "these people don't like a game I loved back in the day, and therefore it must be some systemic problem with how things are being lost in gaming today" rather than "things have been added to gaming today which allows these people that otherwise would NOT play games to now play games."  But, it is upsetting so I wont continue. But I do disagree. And, although for me old games mechanics are tied up with the emotional component, people like Sylvius have comprehensively outlined the positives to having a non-voiced protag, for example, whether or not people care/agree/value it.)

Modifié par Firky, 19 octobre 2012 - 09:11 .

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And you know what? Dues Ex was a very cinematic game with a voice protagonist. It had exactly the sort of stylistic but unobtrusive UI that DA II seemed to be attempting.

Sorry, but Deus Ex also had a set character with a set personality. It's a very different style. It was also inconsistent with its dialogue interface. That's not a model I would want to follow, though I found the game definitely did some interesting things.

The rules for the DE:HR are simple, and consistent: If an action: Show action in wheel. If dialogue: Show one-word description of Jensen's angle and as much of the actual line as you can fit in the dialogue box.
In addition to that, the higher amount of information available gave a higher amount of control over Jensen than there ever was over Hawke. I knew what Jensen was going to say. I never knew what Hawke was going to say.

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Vaeliorin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Grrr... reading through that link has actually angered me. It wasn't until an insightful comment made me say "thank you."

Do we call anyone that's grown up in a city but never been to a farm weak or useless compared to the farmers or farming ancestors, just because they have a completely different skillset to survive the city?

The fact that the teacher would "take an arrow to the heart" demonstrates how his nostalgia clouds his perspective. He likely grew up with Ultima IV, and it was a game he really enjoyed. He has that attachment to the game, in spite of its limitations, and when other people cannot see it due to its age, it literally wounds him.


Here's the thing: Games in general are a lot more accessible (and in general just more accepted) now. The skillset required to simply use a computer in the times when Ultima IV came out immediately filter out the types of people that would even be able to play it.

I think what's much more likely the case, is that this teacher is talking with people that frankly wouldn't have enjoyed Ultima IV very much if the first time they picked it up was back when it was released. It's less about "people are forgetting about how to play the older games" and more about "there's a greater variety of people out there now that are able to play games" coupled with "There are enough games out today that appeal to a diverse enough set of skillsets."


I see in these comments the usual pejoratives about the "console generation" and things like that, and I don't think they even realize they're doing it. They're speaking down to people who simply don't have the same interest in games that they do, but fallaciously assume that these people would still be gamers in the late 80s and better equipped to deal with an Ultima IV. To them, it's not "these people just wouldn't like this game that I love at any time" but rather "these people don't like a game I loved back in the day, and therefore it must be some systemic problem with how things are being lost in gaming today" rather than "things have been added to gaming today which allows these people that otherwise would NOT play games to now play games."

On that note I need to head to bed, but after reading most of the comments I started to worry that I'd damage my orthodontics.

I think the thing that bothered me the most about the article was when the author was talking about what people wanted (in a kind of condescending "we didn't need these things when I was a kid" way), and one of the things he listed was fun combat.  Who the heck doesn't want fun combat in a game with combat?  Is there actually anyone who asks for combat to be boring or tedious?

Anyway, I tried to play Ultima IV a year or so ago (it might have been a bit longer, I don't recall exactly) and got incredibly frustrated when I couldn't get any sort of response from any of the NPCs.  Now, it's entirely possible the version I had was bugged (it was a flash version on the net), but it was enough to get me to quit after about an hour of trying to get anywhere.  I'm not saying this as part of the "new generation" of gamer either...I played Ultima II back in the day (I had no idea what the heck I was doing...it was a copy from a family member, and I had no manual or anything...I just wandered around killing things.)

On a side note...XCOM:EU is indeed awesome, but classic is really freaking hard!

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 19 octobre 2012 - 09:18 .

[serenai]

Firky wrote...

[snip]

More on topic, I'm not really sure how concerns raised by people who hate voiced protag can be mitigated, though. Maybe that's an important question.

Would a settings toggle work (would need subtitles on, of course)? Or would it be bad to check that additional true/false every time the game goes to play the PC's response choice?

[rolson00]

David Gaider wrote...

rolson00 wrote...
whilst i like the idea of da:o's convo lists(a shed load of things to choose) they are very outdated for todays games
is it possible to incorparate origins amount oif options into the dialogoue wheel?

Considering we had a hard limit of 6 options total on the DAO list (which included investigates) and 10 options total on the DA2 wheel (including the investigate sub-hub), I suspect that would be a bad idea.

I get that some people like to imagine their character's tone, and that having that tone made explicit for them prevents them from imagining that for themselves and thus they feel restricted by it. That is, however, not something we can change with the move to a voiced protagonist-- and while the same people can make the argument on these forums time and time again, it's not something we're willing to change. Improving paraphrases, sure... coming up with some elaborate and expensive system to give them what they think they want, when that doesn't really give them what they want at all (a silent protagonist), no.

I know that's not what you're suggesting, rolson00, but I've read it here and on previous threads-- many times (though normally by the same people, and sometimes corraling in new people who read these arguments and think that sounds great). It is simply not going to happen.

the saints row games 2-3 have multiple voice actors(3 per gender i think?) for the main charecetar, is that something worth considering or is it just 1 actor per gender?,
but for the dialogue wheel it would be really helpful if their was something we could do to bring up what the main charectar is going to say like a spoilers button?