53 réponses à ce sujet

[xsamplexample]

 Bioware, if you heed any piece of advice from these fan forums, please take this: we want to see our choices play out in dramatically different ways.

We have made many choices that chould transfer; orzamarr politics, dalish/warewolf outcome, redcliff castle and its family, qunari, Hawke's choice to aid the templars/mages.... these are just a few of the choices we have made throughout the series.  these could all come back to manifest in different expereicnes for the player. 

Please learn from Mass Effect 3's mistakes!  Do this game right!

[unbentbuzzkill]

i agree

[BanksHector]

I really do not care much if our choices play out in dramatically different ways. A little change here and there would be nice or different little quests from them.

I would like to something bigger done with the OGB and dramatically play out different if you did or didn't do it. Since that is the biggest choice we had so far imo, I think it needs a much bigger outcome then all the other ones.

[TCBC_Freak]

If this works, then to quote the good Allan Schumacher from another topic on a somewhat related vain.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Then what the hell was point of sticking in the stab if it did jack in the long run? Ugh.

Because you wanted to kill her?

I never really understand this perspective of going "well the consequences weren't actually what I wanted to have happen.... so what was the point!?"

I think it's a problem with people knowing the consequences of their actions at times. For instance, had Deus Ex shown more than the immediate aftermath of the choices provided, then the player would then have the idea that the choice was "right" or "wrong" based on those consequences.

If you choose to go with Tracer Tong to make city states, and it results in complete total anarchy and chaos, then people will argue "what's the point?" when the points was simply that JC felt it was the best course of action. (For the record, this is why I like the vagueness of Deus Ex's endings).

Allan Schumacher wrote...
--------> someone else (didn't work right?)
See, I I feel a game should do the exact opposite - tell us the consequences of our choices, so I can feel like I had an impact on the world. This lets actions done during the game, both big and small, grow into a true feel of affecting the world.
<---------------
It just depends on what the game is trying to do. The focus shifts depending on how you play out the endings.

It reminds me a bit about Ravel and her question: "What can change the nature of a man?" You get a ton of answers to provide, but she isn't asking you as a test. She wants to know TNO's answer, simply because it's TNO's answer.

If you're going to show the consequences of one's actions in a game, I think it's better served if you're showing the consequences of the actions made throughout the game, not just (or even at all) the end.

Players have certainly stated that they like their actions to have consequences, though I find mostly as long as those consequences play out the way they expect/want. And more often than not they want them to "play out the way they want it to" (whatever that means. It's unique to every person, even if perspectives are shared). If the consequences of a choice mostly plays out in a way the player would like it to, they tend to be happy. If the consequence of said choice doesn't play out the way they want, even if it's logically consistent, it ends up becoming "what's the point?!" You see it in this very thread.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

--------> someone else (didn't work right?)
Oh and I get the joke in there about vagueness and deus ex.
<---------------
Oh? I didn't mean for there to be one. What was it? LOL.

The original Deus Ex is one of my all time favourite games. By not showing you the explicit aftermath of your choices, it puts more focus on the choices themselves and your/Denton's motivation for choosing them, instead of on the consequences of said choices. Someone could have all the noble intentions in the world of making a particular choice, but if the game dev goes "This bad thing happens" it can backfire.

Sometimes it works though (siding with the Kuei-Jin in Bloodlines).

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:51 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Point being, we all want our choices to matter, but most people say their choice didn't matter if it doesn't play out how they want it to or think it should.

[hexaligned]

Meh, I could go either way. On the one hand it's nice to see some continuity, on the other I don't want to advocate a 5 hour long game with 20 variations dependent on save imports. If they have some "extra" time and money to work on them, cool. If not, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have imports at all, it's not like we have a protagonist carrying over or anything.

[sylvanaerie]

I don't really care. Beyond 'who is ruling Ferelden' in Origins, and which side of the mage/templar war got done (because it seems to have had an impact, not necessarily on what happened but how people in Thedas view what happened, which is more important imo), what 'earth shattering' choices have any players made in either of the two games.

If it affects some quest or some story point later (like having Zathrian break the curse created a small encounter with a former werewolf being hunted by one of his victim's child), then by all means show what happened. Otherwise, unless it doesn't affect the story why is everyone whining about 'choices'. DA2 was full of these small quests or even some mention (like King Alistair or Queen Anora, Harrowmont is mentioned by Varric if he's on the throne in Orzammar, cameos of people you met in previous games like Nathaniel).

People seem to think every little choice they make in the game is vital and has world affecting actions.

We'll have to wait to see DA3 to see what will be deemed "noteworthy" in the dev's PoV from DA2's choices.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 15 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[sylvanaerie]

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvaranaerie wrote...
People seem to think every little choice they make in the game is vital and has world affecting actions.

Urn of Sacred Ashes destroyed or rebuilt is no small choice

And there was a quest related to that decision too, if the word of the Ashes gets out to Thedas. 

[Realmzmaster]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvaranaerie wrote...
People seem to think every little choice they make in the game is vital and has world affecting actions.

Urn of Sacred Ashes destroyed or rebuilt is no small choice

And there was a quest related to that decision too, if the word of the Ashes gets out to Thedas. 

If the warden does not kill the High Dragon the urn will disappear. If Brother Genitivi is not with the warden in the temple because the warden sent him home the urn will disappear.  If the warden defiles the ashes then the ashes are useless.
Only if Genitivi left alive and with the warden in the temple does the temple become a mecca for the faithful.  Not all that important in the scheme of actions.

[daaaav]

Got to play devil's advocate for this... Do we really want dramatic divergent pathways for our choices? What makes you think that Bioware can generate a tapestry rich enough in content to accomodate the spider's web of choices that you crave?

I would rather they limit the scope of what you can change in the world such that the consequences of your decisions ACTUALLY matter.

[Fast Jimmy]

daaaav wrote...

Got to play devil's advocate for this... Do we really want dramatic divergent pathways for our choices? What makes you think that Bioware can generate a tapestry rich enough in content to accomodate the spider's web of choices that you crave?

I would rather they limit the scope of what you can change in the world such that the consequences of your decisions ACTUALLY matter.

Do we want dramatic divergent pathways? Sure.

Do people want to pay the price for these differences? No, not at all. People live in a fairy world where they want these choices to influence the game, but dont' realize that it would, essentially, boil down to Bioware making completely different story worlds for some choices. People don't want to pay the $100-$120 price tag that would be required to build such a game, or to pay normal price for a widely divergent 10-20 hour game experience. People want sprawling, huge, epic RPGs with every man, woman, child, animal and fern romanceable, every race playable (both male and female), tons of orgins and, of course, to have their every whim and desire with previous choices catered to with future games. 

The list of demands and requests for DA3 is already huge and ridiculous as it is... if anyone thinks they are going to address previous choices with any more regard than what we saw with DA2 and ME3 (with a small fetch or skirmish quest, a small conversation reference or, worse yet...a  Codex Entry!) then they are horribly misguided. 

Killed Anders and think it will matter to anything, ever? Nope, we're never going to hear from him again. Did the Ultimate Sacrifice for the good of Ferelden? Won't matter, things with Morrigan will wind up playing out the same way. Destroyed the Anvil to prevent it from consuming the souls of others? The Dwarves will still find a way to craft Golems anyway.  Worked your butt off to get your Human Noble Female married to Allistair and on the throne? Totally going to be retconned and ignored.

In response to Realmzmaster, I think saving the Urn and having it become a Mecca for the Chantry would play a pretty huge role. I mean, the Templars are an arm of the Chantry (even if they are officially schismed off) who are trying to enact their perspective of Chantry dogma. Getting a huge, religious artifact could work to persuade others to their cause. That would be like if the Catholic Church were to get in a war with the European Union over the legality of something like Gay Marriage. And then the Catholic Church was to find the Holy Grail, giving all of their religious claims more weight (as they have an artifact that could, at least to the masses, attest to all of the divine claims). Do you not think that such a discovery, proving not only the existence of their religious figure, but also attesting to his divinity would not help them sway more people, resources and armies to their cause?

But I agree that it will have almost no influence on the game itself. Its a Rachni Queen decision all over again.

[Fast Jimmy]

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
And there was a quest related to that decision too, if the word of the Ashes gets out to Thedas.

Only a small insignificant quest

Welcome to the future of import decisions.

[sylvanaerie]

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
And there was a quest related to that decision too, if the word of the Ashes gets out to Thedas.

Only a small insignificant quest

And that's all it deserved.  Considering in order for the word of the ashes to get out is

1) Have Genetivi in the temple when you get back from seeing the ashes.
2) Slay the High Dragon outside the temple prior (or even after) going in and getting them.
3) Allow Genetivi to leave alive with news of the ashes

A lot of players can either miss or not care to complete some of these steps.  A couple of my wardens killed him, most didn't kill the High Dragon, some never brought him along.

Frankly, in a good 90-95% of my games, the whole 'mecca thing' never happens.  I don't whine about them not showing people not going to the ashes.  Why would Bioware dump a load of resources into something that isn't related to their story  just because some players whine about wanting to see it?  DA2 wasn't about Hawke being a pilgrim to Haven, it was about a refugee in Kirkwall, dealing with problems there.  Hawke has more earthy issues to deal with than being bothered with some ashes of a dead woman 1000 years gone.

If it's related to something in the story, by all means, it should be shown, otherwise, it's of little consequence and detracts from the overall tale being told.

Hate to burst your bubble but most decisions aren't as world shaping as you would like to think, and only available in some playthroughs.  Not everyone gets the 'mecca' card at the end, and those epilogue cards should be taken with a grain of salt anyway since half the time they don't reflect what really happens.

Or did you truly believe the Anders in DA2 is an imposter and his ending card in Awakenings was accurate in saying 'he stayed with the Wardens ever after', like the one I got.

[Fast Jimmy]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
And there was a quest related to that decision too, if the word of the Ashes gets out to Thedas.

Only a small insignificant quest

And that's all it deserved.  Considering in order for the word of the ashes to get out is

1) Have Genetivi in the temple when you get back from seeing the ashes.
2) Slay the High Dragon outside the temple prior (or even after) going in and getting them.
3) Allow Genetivi to leave alive with news of the ashes

A lot of players can either miss or not care to complete some of these steps.  A couple of my wardens killed him, most didn't kill the High Dragon, some never brought him along.

Frankly, in a good 90-95% of my games, the whole 'mecca thing' never happens.  I don't whine about them not showing people not going to the ashes.  Why would Bioware dump a load of resources into something that isn't related to their story  just because some players whine about wanting to see it?  DA2 wasn't about Hawke being a pilgrim to Haven, it was about a refugee in Kirkwall, dealing with problems there.  Hawke has more earthy issues to deal with than being bothered with some ashes of a dead woman 1000 years gone.

If it's related to something in the story, by all means, it should be shown, otherwise, it's of little consequence and detracts from the overall tale being told.

Hate to burst your bubble but most decisions aren't as world shaping as you would like to think, and only available in some playthroughs.  Not everyone gets the 'mecca' card at the end, and those epilogue cards should be taken with a grain of salt anyway since half the time they don't reflect what really happens.

Or did you truly believe the Anders in DA2 is an imposter and his ending card in Awakenings was accurate in saying 'he stayed with the Wardens ever after', like the one I got.

I'll just repost what I had posted literally two posts ago here really quick...

" I think saving the Urn and having it become a Mecca for the Chantry would play a pretty huge role. I mean, the Templars are an arm of the Chantry (even if they are officially schismed off) who are trying to enact their perspective of Chantry dogma. Getting a huge, religious artifact could work to persuade others to their cause. That would be like if the Catholic Church were to get in a war with the European Union over the legality of something like Gay Marriage. And then the Catholic Church was to find the Holy Grail, giving all of their religious claims more weight (as they have an artifact that could, at least to the masses, attest to all of the divine claims). Do you not think that such a discovery, proving not only the existence of their religious figure, but also attesting to his divinity would not help them sway more people, resources and armies to their cause?"

[Cultist]

After Mass Effect 3 and a list of lies and false promises fans gathered from previous bioWare statements, as well as overall shift from RPG towards interactive movie, I doubt they will allow us even the very concept of choice.

Modifié par Cultist, 15 octobre 2012 - 08:28 .

[sylvanaerie]

And perhaps in DA3 (which seems to be going with more Chantry involvement) will have some mention (or even play a larger role, like maybe sparking an Exalted March--or rumors of such--from Val Royeaux to 'secure the ashes for the faithful') if the warden did allow word of the ashes to get out and pilgrims *etc, etc*

But what of those of us who didn't? Since my prefered Warden is a Surana, I kind of don't like the Andrastian viewpoint, so almost all my playthroughs were "No ashes", "No pilgrims" etc. Should Bioware devote a lot of resources, to invest a huge storyline aspect to something only some players will ever see?

Less is more, smaller keeps the world more viable than having to keep handwaving 'huge' choices players make.

[Fast Jimmy]

sylvanaerie wrote...

And perhaps in DA3 (which seems to be going with more Chantry involvement) will have some mention (or even play a larger role, like maybe sparking an Exalted March--or rumors of such--from Val Royeaux to 'secure the ashes for the faithful') if the warden did allow word of the ashes to get out and pilgrims *etc, etc*

But what of those of us who didn't? Since my prefered Warden is a Surana, I kind of don't like the Andrastian viewpoint, so almost all my playthroughs were "No ashes", "No pilgrims" etc. Should Bioware devote a lot of resources, to invest a huge storyline aspect to something only some players will ever see?

Less is more, smaller keeps the world more viable than having to keep handwaving 'huge' choices players make.

I don't think they should do import flags at all, just set a canon before every new game and let the chips fall where they may.

So you may be preaching to the wrong choir about how much certain choices would cost. I say get rid of all of them, let Bioware tell the best stories they can without having to worry about dead or alive characters, yes or no flag states. If they want to make a canon Dwarven Noble Warden who preserved the Anvil, defiled the Ashes, saved the Tower and put Allistair on the throne (and Anora in a tower), then they can knock themselves out. This would free them to give us TONS of choices in each game, without having to worry about how they will affect games in the future.

[sylvanaerie]

FFFT I took your post to mean you wanted big impact, not no impact at all (in sequels). I don't think it should be handwaved into complete non-existence (otherwise, considering how people whine now about Bioware 'ignoring' their choices, could you imagine the uproar that 'their preferred warden' wasn't chosen as 'canon'). Would completely crash the boards from the weight of all the whine.

I think the default Warden in the game is HNM (as described in the 'default' history given in DA2's character creation), but I'm glad to be able to import different wardens for different choices for quests in game. Creates permutations that allowed me different playthroughs with different quests.

I can see it getting more and more complicated down the line as more imports are required, though.

[Fast Jimmy]

sylvanaerie wrote...

FFFT I took your post to mean you wanted big impact, not no impact at all (in sequels). I don't think it should be handwaved into complete non-existence (otherwise, considering how people whine now about Bioware 'ignoring' their choices, could you imagine the uproar that 'their preferred warden' wasn't chosen as 'canon'). Would completely crash the boards from the weight of all the whine.

I think the default Warden in the game is HNM (as described in the 'default' history given in DA2's character creation), but I'm glad to be able to import different wardens for different choices for quests in game. Creates permutations that allowed me different playthroughs with different quests.

I can see it getting more and more complicated down the line as more imports are required, though.

FFFT? Forced Flow Flamespread Test? I'm not trying to flame you. 

And yes... fans would rage. But if, in its place, Bioware gave you the insane amount of choice as they did in DA:O (which they could again, knowing they wouldn't have to worry about prior game choices, or choices affecting future games) then I think that they could balance it out. 

The number of choices will keep growing... or they won't, I suppose. The way DA2 played out, there were probably only about half-a-dozen choices that actually would have an affect on the world (aside from how you interacted with your companions... which don't really count, because most of them could be dead or imprisoned, so Bioware won't make loads of custom content for them to return in some people's games and not others). So if DA2's lack of real choice is kept up, then they can keep importing from game to game... but then the game will just be an interactive movie with combat sessions and no real choices. Which I wouldn't be a fan of at all.

[sylvanaerie]

Nizaris1 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Frankly, in a good 90-95% of my games, the whole 'mecca thing' never happens. I don't whine about them not showing people not going to the ashes. Why would Bioware dump a load of resources into something that isn't related to their story just because some players whine about wanting to see it? DA2 wasn't about Hawke being a pilgrim to Haven, it was about a refugee in Kirkwall, dealing with problems there. Hawke has more earthy issues to deal with than being bothered with some ashes of a dead woman 1000 years gone.

As Fast jimmy have already say, I want to add, with Temple of Andraste being rebuilt and restored, becoming a Mecca, that will indeed making Andraste religion stronger than before, and thus making their iron fist rule on Mages justified and even harder.

See, now the existence of their prophet is proven, the "miracle" proven, surely that will be a mega discovery for the Chantry and shape the world in DA2. And DA2 is about Mage vs Templar War. How come it is only little effect with one insignificant quest?

Mage vs Templar War is totally related with Andraste religion "Magic must serve men, and not rule over him", it is about Mages vs Andrastrian religion. How come the discovery of the Urn give only little effect?

If you're going to quote me, at least read my post, as you obviously didn't.   In the majority of my playthroughs no 'mecca' happens, no 'miracle' only rumors of a miracle.  No pilgrims, no temple, nada, zip, zilch.  Want to know what pilgrims found in my game?  A huge ass dragon blocking their way to the 'rumored last resting place' of the ashes.  In the end everyone gave up because the thing wrecked the temple.

Not going into a huge repeat of what I posted already since I'm just talking in circles with you, and you obviously aren't reading what I post anyway, just quoting me to fuel your arguments.

[sylvanaerie]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

FFFT I took your post to mean you wanted big impact, not no impact at all (in sequels). I don't think it should be handwaved into complete non-existence (otherwise, considering how people whine now about Bioware 'ignoring' their choices, could you imagine the uproar that 'their preferred warden' wasn't chosen as 'canon'). Would completely crash the boards from the weight of all the whine.

I think the default Warden in the game is HNM (as described in the 'default' history given in DA2's character creation), but I'm glad to be able to import different wardens for different choices for quests in game. Creates permutations that allowed me different playthroughs with different quests.

I can see it getting more and more complicated down the line as more imports are required, though.

FFFT? Forced Flow Flamespread Test? I'm not trying to flame you. 

And yes... fans would rage. But if, in its place, Bioware gave you the insane amount of choice as they did in DA:O (which they could again, knowing they wouldn't have to worry about prior game choices, or choices affecting future games) then I think that they could balance it out. 

The number of choices will keep growing... or they won't, I suppose. The way DA2 played out, there were probably only about half-a-dozen choices that actually would have an affect on the world (aside from how you interacted with your companions... which don't really count, because most of them could be dead or imprisoned, so Bioware won't make loads of custom content for them to return in some people's games and not others). So if DA2's lack of real choice is kept up, then they can keep importing from game to game... but then the game will just be an interactive movie with combat sessions and no real choices. Which I wouldn't be a fan of at all.

This is why the only two choices that matter are "The Blight was stopped" and "The mage/templar war was sparked".  And really those aren't 'choices' at all since they are the point of the game.  All other stuff is just 'window dressing' to me, and one reason I'm glad they are going with a different protagonist each game, keeping the clogging of the game 'choices' to a minimum as they don't have as much impact on subsequent PCs.

And ffft was a sound effect (imagine me blowing air through my lips).  Though I find your interpretation far more amusing