183 réponses à ce sujet

[Rokayt]

Kenadian wrote...

I think I've argued with you on this before. Frankly, as it stands, the gun is a joke. It doesn't do what it advertises, never did. Not in ME2 and not in ME3 when they changed the description. If it actually did what it was supposed to originally do, we'd have an awesome sniper. This would require drastically lowering its recoil and increasing its RoF while leaving a minimum refire rate. You know, basically letting you get off 3 shots rapidly in the span of one shot. It would drastically boost its headshot and damage potential without requiring a massive damage buff.

While I doubt that anyone is a fan of this weapon, completely altering it would be unfair to the fans of the weapon.
We need to make it an acceptable gun without changing its feel for the people who use it.

Lets say I throw my hands up on the phaestron and give up on balancing it, and reduce it to a revenant clone, wouldn't all the little phaestron lovers be up in arms about how it was totally ruined?


As a side note, the Eviscerator has been given makeup, the Katana is next.

Modifié par Rokayt, 17 octobre 2012 - 03:40 .

[CrashLegacy]

Kenadian wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

tntk252 wrote...

Just out of curiosity, do you have any ideas for an Incisor buff, Rokayt?

It has a few very dangerous flaws:

Its burst fire: This is the fire mode which gives the player the least control as to when and how they fire their weapon, wasting ammo, and leaving you unable to fire when you need to fire occasionally (Namely, when using rof bonuses, the burst delay is shorter then the burst time, creating gaps in your fire.)

It is also high recoil, which in being coupled with the burst fire causes a VERY large number of shots to be wasted, and it forces one to annoyingly re aquire the target.

However, I would address neither of these things, as both are integral to the feel of the gun.
Rather, the gun simply needs to give enough reward to match the tremendous risk you take using it (OR the cost one undertakes compensating for these flaws.)

I think I've argued with you on this before. Frankly, as it stands, the gun is a joke. It doesn't do what it advertises, never did. Not in ME2 and not in ME3 when they changed the description. If it actually did what it was supposed to originally do, we'd have an awesome sniper. This would require drastically lowering its recoil and increasing its RoF while leaving a minimum refire rate. You know, basically letting you get off 3 shots rapidly in the span of one shot. It would drastically boost its headshot and damage potential without requiring a massive damage buff.

You've got a point there, hell certian folks would consider it superior to much higher damage snipers based on its capabilities agianst shield gate if that where the case.  Honestly, i doubt we'll ever see if fire a burst as fast as it's ME2 discription made it out to be.

Rokayt wrote...
While I doubt that anyone is a fan of this weapon, completely altering it would be unfair to the fans of the weapon.
We need to make it an acceptable gun without changing its feel for the people who use it.

Lets
say I throw my hands up on the phaestron and give up on balancing it,
and reduce it to a revenant clone, wouldn't all the little phaestron
lovers be up in arms about how it was totally ruined?

This wouldn't be a case of compeltely altering the weapon, infact, without completely axeing the burst fire mode I thing it would be impossible for the weapon to "lose it's identity" so to speak. Besides its not like we haven't seen changes on this level on the weekly updates (just look at whats been done to get rid of the rocket glich).

Modifié par CrashLegacy, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:08 .

[deCastro_1188]

Um, I'd like to make a suggestion.
In the interest of making somewhat irrelevant weapons buffed to normalcy how about specializing them instead? Like give the GPR a %200 buff against shields making it an anti geth rifle. If the eviscerator is a sniper side arm make it stagger %100. If the disciple is an adept shotgun give it a low level warp to prime targets.

I'm thinking I'd love an armory of choices that would complement play styles. The scorpion is a great example, which I'd like one if someone wants to lend me theirs

Modifié par deCastro_1188, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:00 .

[Rokayt]

deCastro_1188 wrote...

Um, I'd like to make a suggestion.
In the interest of making somewhat irrelevant weapons buffed to normalcy how about specializing them instead? Like give the GPR a %200 buff against shields making it an anti geth rifle. If the eviscerator is a sniper side arm make it stagger %100. If the disciple is an adept shotgun give it a low level warp to prime targets.

I'm thinking I'd love an armory of choices that would complement play styles. The scorpion is a great example, which I'd like one if someone wants to lend me theirs

Im sticking to what the balance changes are capable of.

All of this would require patching (Aside from the Eviscerator.)

[Quething]

Eviscerator's not a sniper sidearm, it's a caster shotgun. It's supposed to be a light and toothy main weapon for vanguards, Shockwave and Smash adepts, paladins and Glacier-loving dronedepts. The tighter spread doesn't just make for better headshots, it also allows the gun to be effective at longer ranges, which enables it to be used as a reliable primary. The best fix would be to give it a damage modifier vs armor like it had in ME2, but since that can't be done through Coalesced, a slight RoF buff (to match the one they refuse to give the Wraith that everyone's always asking for anyway) or a slight accuracy buff (so you could replace Smart Choke with Shredder or EB) would be most appropriate IMO.

[Rokayt]

Quething wrote...

Eviscerator's not a sniper sidearm, it's a caster shotgun. It's supposed to be a light and toothy main weapon for vanguards, Shockwave and Smash adepts, paladins and Glacier-loving dronedepts. The tighter spread doesn't just make for better headshots, it also allows the gun to be effective at longer ranges, which enables it to be used as a reliable primary. The best fix would be to give it a damage modifier vs armor like it had in ME2, but since that can't be done through Coalesced, a slight RoF buff (to match the one they refuse to give the Wraith that everyone's always asking for anyway) or a slight accuracy buff (so you could replace Smart Choke with Shredder or EB) would be most appropriate IMO.

An accuracy buff would work, however..... A rof buff would make it too similar to a certain .9 shotgun.

Unfortunately, the Wraith has taken up the Eviscerators role as a primary arm.

[Ziegrif]

Give the gun true unlimited ammo.
Because video game logic.
No need to reload just shoots unlimited ammo and never needs to cool off.
Breaks all sorts of lore and game mechanics but would make it unique and could stay the way it is.

[Rokayt]

I'm a balancer Ziegrief, I cant do that!

[SavagelyEpic]

The title reads like some defense department study.

[Rokayt]

SavagelyEpic wrote...

The title reads like some defense department study.

Intentional.
If we are upgrading a large number of weapons... It would be the future.

The weapons I am targeting are generally sustained fire weapons.....


Hence the title.

[CrashLegacy]

I'm with Quething on this. I've never thought of the Eviscerator as a "sniper's sidearm". In fact I've used it more as a primary on a caster (particularly vanguards) or in tandem with the Harrier on riflemen setups then anything. Heck, I think the weapon is my most commonly used shotgun.

That said the gun's rate of fire 'feels' right to me, that latency between blasts makes the gun feel like it's got a fair amount of bite to it (especially given it's relative weight). Honestly I think the weight of the weapon is fair enough,and damage bonuses are always welcome, my choice in modification would involve the gun's capabilities as described in it's info. Some minor enhancements to it's versus armor qualities would be awesome (and supported by the weapon's lore). I'm not talking tons of penetration either, more like .25m or however much would be the minimum to penetrate guardian shields and reaper armor plates. To empathize this capability add a small vs armor damage bonus (like +5-10% vs Armor).


Also Rokayt, I'll suggest that instead of saying "a certain .9 shotgun" you should straight out sate the weapon's name for those who don't know the weapon being referenced. Especially true since there are two .9 shotguns.

[DatFeel]

Why is GPR on here. It's not an common/uncommon.

[MajorStupidity]

DatFeel wrote...

Why is GPR on here. It's not an common/uncommon.

Because it is worse than most of the uncommon weapons. Plus this thread never specifically stated that it would only focus on common/uncommons just sustained fire weapons.

[Quething]

CrashLegacy wrote...

That said the gun's rate of fire 'feels' right to me, that latency between blasts makes the gun feel like it's got a fair amount of bite to it (especially given it's relative weight).

It was perfect in ME2, because there was exactly enough time for a melee between shots. Charge-shoot-elbow-shoot-elbow-shoot-elbow-reload, max DPS. It's not as fluid in ME3, for some reason; animation lengths are different on the various melees, enemies stagger back out of reach, melee is more suicidal, etc etc, idk. Depending on cooldowns, certain powers fit well in the gap, but it just doesn't seem as smooth.

Still, though, anti-armor would be the best possible solution. Penetration can actually be added in the C.bin, and now that they fixed the bug with Shredder/AP mods, it'd be a big help. But IMO it's the damage reduction that's the bigger issue by far, and that would require a patch. 

Modifié par Quething, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[Rokayt]

DatFeel wrote...

Why is GPR on here. It's not an common/uncommon.

I feel for all the bad weapons. Including a pretty big chunk of the rares.

[Rokayt]

CrashLegacy wrote...

I'm with Quething on this. I've never thought of the Eviscerator as a "sniper's sidearm". In fact I've used it more as a primary on a caster (particularly vanguards) or in tandem with the Harrier on riflemen setups then anything. Heck, I think the weapon is my most commonly used shotgun.

That said the gun's rate of fire 'feels' right to me, that latency between blasts makes the gun feel like it's got a fair amount of bite to it (especially given it's relative weight). Honestly I think the weight of the weapon is fair enough,and damage bonuses are always welcome, my choice in modification would involve the gun's capabilities as described in it's info. Some minor enhancements to it's versus armor qualities would be awesome (and supported by the weapon's lore). I'm not talking tons of penetration either, more like .25m or however much would be the minimum to penetrate guardian shields and reaper armor plates. To empathize this capability add a small vs armor damage bonus (like +5-10% vs Armor).


Also Rokayt, I'll suggest that instead of saying "a certain .9 shotgun" you should straight out sate the weapon's name for those who don't know the weapon being referenced. Especially true since there are two .9 shotguns.

Three .9 weight shotguns, actually, one has never been used, mind you.

[ErrorTagUnknown]

im all 'tarded` this morning.....what are the three .9s? also, on a totally unrelated topic, holy crap my boy is 1 today....hes wasted so many ops packs with his grabby hands

[YapperFlapper]

ErrorTagUnknown wrote...

im all 'tarded` this morning.....what are the three .9s? also, on a totally unrelated topic, holy crap my boy is 1 today....hes wasted so many ops packs with his grabby hands

Katana, Prianha, and Wraith.  A lot easier to get the first two to that .9 than the last one...

[tntk252]

Alright, i'm back, I finished my sniper challenge. t'was painful, I used both the Incisor and the Raptor for a bit. Incisor got finished first, so it was the last one I used.

While the Recoil/ROF/Accuracy changes would change the feel of the gun, I really don't think many people are a fan of the Incisor. I used it almost exclusively on a Turian from cover, even then, the recoil made it a right pain to use. Having used it once on the Human Soldier before, I can confidently say this. Reducing the base recoil to what it sits at on a turian in cover would go a long way to making the gun much more usable. The raptor still needs a hand, I had to put it on a Destroyer with Sniper Amp IV to make it feel useful on bronze, but I wouldn't be surprised if you already had ideas for it.

[Miniditka77]

Rokayt wrote...

Eviscerator buff:

The eviscerator is an interesting case:
It is an excellent weapon for popping out of cover, dealing your damage, and going back into cover.
As such, it shouldn't have that massive of a damage output, however, it also leaves one vunrable for long stretches of time in moving combat.
To warn you, this will likely be the lowest damage output I will leave a .7 weight weapon at.

Its the snipers sidearm.
For referance:
516 DPS, delivered in infrequent large bursts.
Accuracy: Moderate-Shotgun.
Weight: .7
Other factors: Higher then average Multiclip DPS to Burst DPS.

What does it need?

It needs to be a little more... Sniper sidearm freindly, and a little more intimidating in these bursts.
Not much, but enough to prevent it from getting so badly outshined as it is now.

Buffs:
Minimum Weight to .6
+15% damage. (To 593 burst DPS.)

It will be an intimidating sniper sidarm for snipers who love intimidating sidarms, however, the gap between shots will make it stay an imperfect weapon for on the move combat, but ideal for holding out.

None of this fixes the true problem with the Eviscerator - it's completely outclassed in its designated role by the Talon.  Even an Eviscerator X is inferior to the Talon I.  Yes, it has higher single-shot damage at that level, but the Talon's increased ROF more than makes up for that and results in higher DPS.  A slight damage buff may be appropriate, but what I'd like to see that would truly make the Eviscerator unique would be a massive accuracy buff and a 1.5 multiplier against armor.  It's already pretty accurate for a Shotgun, but I think it would be an interesting and unique weapon if its long-range accuracy were similar to a normal Shotgun with Marksman and Choke bonuses.  Its lower damage could be offset by the increased headshot potential and better armor performance.  And best of all - both of these buffs would be lore-friendly, as the Eviscerator was supposed to be a Shotgun with a tighter spread and better performance against armor.

Modifié par Miniditka77, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:19 .

[CrashLegacy]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Eviscerator buff:

The eviscerator is an interesting case:
It is an excellent weapon for popping out of cover, dealing your damage, and going back into cover.
As such, it shouldn't have that massive of a damage output, however, it also leaves one vunrable for long stretches of time in moving combat.
To warn you, this will likely be the lowest damage output I will leave a .7 weight weapon at.

Its the snipers sidearm.
For referance:
516 DPS, delivered in infrequent large bursts.
Accuracy: Moderate-Shotgun.
Weight: .7
Other factors: Higher then average Multiclip DPS to Burst DPS.

What does it need?

It needs to be a little more... Sniper sidearm freindly, and a little more intimidating in these bursts.
Not much, but enough to prevent it from getting so badly outshined as it is now.

Buffs:
Minimum Weight to .6
+15% damage. (To 593 burst DPS.)

It will be an intimidating sniper sidarm for snipers who love intimidating sidarms, however, the gap between shots will make it stay an imperfect weapon for on the move combat, but ideal for holding out.

None of this fixes the true problem with the Eviscerator - it's completely outclassed in its designated role by the Talon.  Even an Eviscerator X is inferior to the Talon I.  Yes, it has higher single-shot damage at that level, but the Talon's increased ROF more than makes up for that and results in higher DPS.  A slight damage buff may be appropriate, but what I'd like to see that would truly make the Eviscerator unique would be a massive accuracy buff and a 1.5 multiplier against armor.  It's already pretty accurate for a Shotgun, but I think it would be an interesting and unique weapon if its long-range accuracy were similar to a normal Shotgun with Marksman and Choke bonuses.  Its lower damage could be offset by the increased headshot potential and better armor performance.  And best of all - both of these buffs would be lore-friendly, as the Eviscerator was supposed to be a Shotgun with a tighter spread and better performance against armor.

Ah man,  that kind of buff would jsut add fuel to the "Shotguns are better snipers then sniper rifles are" arguement. the eviscerator already performs admirably at medium range. I think in this actually brings up one of the few times when a nerf to the superior weapon would be a more correct "plan of attack"

[Rokayt]

CrashLegacy wrote...


Ah man,  that kind of buff would jsut add fuel to the "Shotguns are better snipers then sniper rifles are" arguement. the eviscerator already performs admirably at medium range. I think in this actually brings up one of the few times when a nerf to the superior weapon would be a more correct "plan of attack"

There are people who already want my head for having supported almost every nerf thus far, so I will stay quiet on this topic.

tntk252 wrote...

 The raptor still needs a hand, I had to
put it on a Destroyer with Sniper Amp IV to make it feel useful on
bronze, but I wouldn't be surprised if you already had ideas for
it.

Naw, I wouldn't have plans for my old drinking buddy, In fact, I have revised plans for the new, lightweight raptor to bring it up to par.




Note: I wasn't sure if people were still interested in this thread. If you are still interested, Tell me and I will  finish posting my plans for the midweight shotguns.

Modifié par Rokayt, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:38 .

[tntk252]

Revised plans? I like the sound of that.

Please, do continue with your plans for the lightweight shotguns. Shotguns are my next challenge I'm going for. Seeing as most of your buffs are things that are achievable with consumables or the right class, I'd like to try out your suggestions as they go along.

[Rokayt]

tntk252 wrote...

Revised plans? I like the sound of that.

Please, do continue with your plans for the lightweight shotguns. Shotguns are my next challenge I'm going for. Seeing as most of your buffs are things that are achievable with consumables or the right class, I'd like to try out your suggestions as they go along.

Well, The thing is, these buffs would basically work compounding with these consummables......

However. Its time for the last midweight shotgun:

The Katana:
Ultimately, my plans for the Katana are rather simple.
It has generously fast reload times, and a good capacity for its level.
This means we can leave it without an exceptional in clip DPS and still have very good overall DPS's (In fact, its Reload canceled DPS is 90% of its in clip DPS! This means.... Well, You'll see.)

Current attributes:
481 DPS.
Weight .9
Accuacy: Shotgun, Moderate.

My buff:
Damage: +25% damage (To 600 damage per shot at X.)
Rof: from [60] to [66] Totally unoticable feel wise.... But very significant in terms of its sustained DPS.
Capacity: +2 rounds.
Weight: +.1
Reserve ammo at  X increased to 35, to compensate for the increase in clip size.

Ultimately, We would get a shotgun that while it isn't that.... Deadly manshredder like.... Is very robust, Reliable, and above all else... Very much up to standards without encroaching on any of the other shotguns in the game.


The thing about this buff is..... That people wouldn't really notice it too much. It wouldn't be a bosskiller like the pirhana or the wraith, and thus the Katana would likely get overlooked.....

However, It would have a mesurable role in the game.

Its sustained DPS would be roughly its damage per shot, which, while not stellar,
would make it the shotgun one would envision for defending yourself from
mooks trickling in to an area with minimal waste damge, as opposed to the assault shotguns that dominate
the current game.

Ultimately, this Katana buff would probably be met with crys of "It isn't different at all..."

But I would have faith in it.

Now, I think Its the lightweight AR's that I need to establish liberation plans for.? 

The Phaestron, the Vindicator, and the...... Car?
Which should come first?

Modifié par Rokayt, 20 octobre 2012 - 05:29 .

[Lokiwithrope]

+1