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[Rawgrim]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

AdmiralDavidAnderson wrote...

The factors that made Mass Effect 3 not as good as it could have been could certainly carry over to Dragon Age 3. The Dragon Age team should try their hardest to make sure Inquisition doesn't end up the same way.

They should look at the bad parts of Mass Effect 3 for 'How not to do their game'

Ending (Original) - The most disapointing thing about Mass 3 was the ending. It is the opposite of what ANY bioware fan wants from an Ending - Similar to that of Dragon Age 2's. It had NO closure, No explanation and choices did not make a damn difference. The Dragon Age 3 ending needs to have closure, explanation and most importantly a dramatic impact depending on our choices.

A more enjoyable multiplayer - Mass Effect 3's multiplayer got old, fast. I would say that they should not use multiplayer all together for Inquisiton but it is inevitable. Dragon Age 3 needs to have a multi-player that we will enjoy for months and always want to go back to.

No auto-dialogue

Greater Character Development

Take time on the game, don't rush it out the door.

Don't dumb the game down loads for casual players.


Lean more towards RPG... Not action.

I think you are being unfair to the casual gamers, why not give them a sperate option in the game, so everyone can be happy, I liked in me3 we could choose story mode, rpg, and so forth maybe Dragon age team can do somthing like this for DA3

Dragon Age is not a casual game. If you're a casual gamer, play casual games. But don't advocate dumbing down the experience just to appease the CoD players who refuse to play anything that requires some thought.

You know, I actually bought that game for PC first. Finished it, then bought it on Xbox. Simply because I had to turn the graphics down too much on the PC version. I noticed something odd. The console version was severely "dumbed down". The bit with the bridge in the Sacred Ashes quest was severely simplified. that puzzle thingy. No clue why it was done this way, but it felt like I was playing a "light" version of the game.So even though I am now a console gamer, I will freely admit that the game is dumbed down. Even more so becauseI happen to play it on consoles. I wonder why.

[Ponendus]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

If Bioware needs to learn anything from ME3 its that they need to just ignore the so called "fans" because they're a bunch of ungrateful twits that will whine endlessly no matter what you do.

I really don't like it when people tell me I'm hating on something just for my personal fun when I'm critical about it. I never wanted to not like DA2 or ME3, and I think very few people did. I don't usually preorder games I expect not to like, cause that'd be pretty damn stupid and I don't really have the money for such things.

I never felt the need to visit any forum to talk about DA:O, because I was completely enjoying myself playing it and discussing it with my friends who also played it. Was it perfect? No, but what I liked outweighed what I did not like by far. It was the same with ME, and even ME2. 
 
It wasn't like this with DA2 and ME3. There were things and changes I didn't appreciate and the need for which and thought behind I did not understand. Besides that, all of my friends were kinda cautious about what they saw and heard of the games before release, and after each respective demo decided not to get the game. To this day I'm the only one of them who played the games.

I think it's the natural thing to do for someone who started to love games and the universes they are set in to go to the official forums and follow the development of the sequel and talk about it with other fans. And it's also natural after experiencing certain disappointments to want to talk to other people to see how they felt about it. Yes, the negativity was pretty strong, but it's mostly because the appreciation of the games and settings was equally strong.

Firstly, there is a difference between being critical and 'hating on' something. Constructive criticism is always welcome in any artistic enterprise. The reaction around the entire internet about ME3 was that people were 'betrayed', people were literally screaming for developers to be fired, people were pretending to be Anonymous hackers and threatening to compromise the personal security of the dev team.

That is not criticism, it is childish and frankly frightening and malicious nonsense.

I am not saying you undertook that level of criticism, but when idiots are screaming murder, those that they are screaming at turn a deaf ear. This is why the developers rarely come here now, it is why the doctors are leaving BioWare.

It's fine to be passionate and enthusiastic about something, but for crying out loud be decent about it and remember that we are not talking about life or death and nuclear launch codes. 

The reaction was not 'pretty strong' as you say, it was outright embarassing and completely disproportionate to the problem.

[Plaintiff]

Ponendus wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

If Bioware needs to learn anything from ME3 its that they need to just ignore the so called "fans" because they're a bunch of ungrateful twits that will whine endlessly no matter what you do.

I really don't like it when people tell me I'm hating on something just for my personal fun when I'm critical about it. I never wanted to not like DA2 or ME3, and I think very few people did. I don't usually preorder games I expect not to like, cause that'd be pretty damn stupid and I don't really have the money for such things.

I never felt the need to visit any forum to talk about DA:O, because I was completely enjoying myself playing it and discussing it with my friends who also played it. Was it perfect? No, but what I liked outweighed what I did not like by far. It was the same with ME, and even ME2. 
 
It wasn't like this with DA2 and ME3. There were things and changes I didn't appreciate and the need for which and thought behind I did not understand. Besides that, all of my friends were kinda cautious about what they saw and heard of the games before release, and after each respective demo decided not to get the game. To this day I'm the only one of them who played the games.

I think it's the natural thing to do for someone who started to love games and the universes they are set in to go to the official forums and follow the development of the sequel and talk about it with other fans. And it's also natural after experiencing certain disappointments to want to talk to other people to see how they felt about it. Yes, the negativity was pretty strong, but it's mostly because the appreciation of the games and settings was equally strong.

Firstly, there is a difference between being critical and 'hating on' something. Constructive criticism is always welcome in any artistic enterprise. The reaction around the entire internet about ME3 was that people were 'betrayed', people were literally screaming for developers to be fired, people were pretending to be Anonymous hackers and threatening to compromise the personal security of the dev team.

That is not criticism, it is childish and frankly frightening and malicious nonsense.

I am not saying you undertook that level of criticism, but when idiots are screaming murder, those that they are screaming at turn a deaf ear. This is why the developers rarely come here now, it is why the doctors are leaving BioWare.

It's fine to be passionate and enthusiastic about something, but for crying out loud be decent about it and remember that we are not talking about life or death and nuclear launch codes. 

The reaction was not 'pretty strong' as you say, it was outright embarassing and completely disproportionate to the problem.

I purchased the Mass Effect trilogy for PS3 recently, and I was very curious get to the third installment and see what all the fuss is about. I'm nearly finished with it now, and I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, it's my favourite game of the trilogy.

[Ponendus]

Plaintiff wrote...

I purchased the Mass Effect trilogy for PS3 recently, and I was very curious get to the third installment and see what all the fuss is about. I'm nearly finished with it now, and I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, it's my favourite game of the trilogy.

The game itself is exceptional. The uproar was largely about the ending, which was fine in my opinion, but see what you think.

[Plaintiff]

Ponendus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I purchased the Mass Effect trilogy for PS3 recently, and I was very curious get to the third installment and see what all the fuss is about. I'm nearly finished with it now, and I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, it's my favourite game of the trilogy.

The game itself is exceptional. The uproar was largely about the ending, which was fine in my opinion, but see what you think.

I've seen complaints about other parts, and how the game supposedly "scrapped" previously established lore or "destroyed" characters, but I'm not seeing anything that conflicts with previous plot elements. I think a lot of the detractors simply may not have been paying close enough attention to the previous installments. 

I'd consider going into the ME3 forums to discuss it in more detail, but I get enough flak as it is just for liking DA2. 

Modifié par Plaintiff, 30 décembre 2012 - 05:51 .

[duckley]

I loved DAO and really liked DA2. I also loved all three ME games. I have no doubt Bioware is well aware of some of the things they could do to make DA3 as good as or better than previous games.
Bioware excels IMO in great stories and relationships.
The best lesson they can learn is that hype and high expectations will likely lead to some fans feeling disappointed. Not sure what they can do about that. There will likely be lovers and haters...lets hope more of the formerbthan the latter!

[Ponendus]

Plaintiff wrote...

I've seen complaints about other parts, and how the game supposedly "scrapped" previously established lore or "destroyed" characters, but I'm not seeing anything that conflicts with previous plot elements. I think a lot of the detractors simply may not have been paying close enough attention to the previous installments. 

I believe it's a herd mentality. 'I disliked the ending' leads to 'look everyone else does too' leads to 'and yeah what about these bits I didn't like' leads to 'this game is the worst' leads to 'yeah its the worst it's such a betrayal!' leads to 'HANG THEM' leads to 'FIRE THE DEVS RAAAAAWWWWWR'.

And so on.

[Fast Jimmy]

Ponendus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I've seen complaints about other parts, and how the game supposedly "scrapped" previously established lore or "destroyed" characters, but I'm not seeing anything that conflicts with previous plot elements. I think a lot of the detractors simply may not have been paying close enough attention to the previous installments. 

I believe it's a herd mentality. 'I disliked the ending' leads to 'look everyone else does too' leads to 'and yeah what about these bits I didn't like' leads to 'this game is the worst' leads to 'yeah its the worst it's such a betrayal!' leads to 'HANG THEM' leads to 'FIRE THE DEVS RAAAAAWWWWWR'.

And so on.

I'd be curious to see what Plantiff's thoughts on the ME3 endings were. I'd also be curious to see if he has the Extended Cut installed or if he is watching the standard endings first.

Objectively, ME3 did a decent enough story, even if it did railroad you into Paragon Shepherd's choices (you weren't given the choice between Cereberus and the Alliance, like you would have thought after ME2, your ME2 companions who may have died were simply cloned to fill in their spots,the Rachni Queen, the Genophage Cure, the Geth Rewrite, the Council... basically every choice the previous games dressed up as "big" had absolutely zero effect on the third game, except for the laughable EMS score), although the Crucible McGuffin is (again) laughable. But the ending, from basically Priority Earth on, is a shipshod example of how to do an ending. Random, weak conversations broken up by a random, stupid wack-a-mole firing range game and no execution of the final battle plan. I was expecting something like ME2, where we would be asked to assign different units to different tasks, with varying results (putting the Krogan ground forces against land units, putting Jack and the Asari commandos against the Banshees, etc.) but we never see any of our units do anything (in the original version). And in the Extended Cut, it is all the same cutscene for the push to the Beam, not mattering at all if we had dinosaurs or not for the Krogan.

The StarChild's failed logic and poorly implemented choices aside, the ending was falling apart before that point. Priority Earth's lack of polish and purpose shows that they ran out of time for the ending in ME3. They put it off until last and then had no idea what they wanted to do or how they wanted to accomplish it. And it shows, flimsy narrative aside.

EDIT: And, to tie this back into DA3 (the forum we are on), the DA team should take that into consideration. Figure out what you want to do with your story BEFORE you are in the last months of your game and are scarmbling to get content out the door. The fact that there were entire script rewrites and Martin Sheen was pulled in to massive re-recordings of his final scene (the TIM last scene was NOT what needed polishing, BTW?) less than a month before the game went gold and out of development show just how unplanned their final effort was. An ending that is made on the fly is an ending that will often be poorly received.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 décembre 2012 - 12:49 .

[Wulfram]

I think the main problem with leaving the ending so late is the total absence of proper foreshadowing, or appropriate ties into the ending.

You could tell that the Javik DLC was done after the rest of the game, because it's virtually the only part that shows any awareness that Synthetics vs Organics is a thing.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

I think the main problem with leaving the ending so late is the total absence of proper foreshadowing, or appropriate ties into the ending.

You could tell that the Javik DLC was done after the rest of the game, because it's virtually the only part that shows any awareness that Synthetics vs Organics is a thing.

Especially considering that you bring peace to organics and synthetics... then get told a few (game) hours later that organics and synthetics can't have peace. Oh, and that the Reapers job is to ensure peace between organics and synthetics... except the entire trilogy, they insight the synthetic Geth to slaughter organics wholesale.

Yep... lots of foreshadowing there...?

[TheJediSaint]

The lesson? Endings matter.

[DarthLaxian]

Ponendus wrote...

The game itself is exceptional. The uproar was largely about the ending, which was fine in my opinion, but see what you think.

if you see it as "just another game" they yes, the game is quite good, but with all the lore, happening and stuff and it being the climax of  the mass effect series that could have been so much more, so epic (a milestone) then, no, the game is not good, it is stupidly linear, has no interesting side-missions, not decisions that matter etc. seeing the game like that it is just cheap crap IMHO, even more so as the narrative etc. feels so gimped (you are building this crucible thing, but you can not visite the building site, even though you are the one person that should re-unite the galaxy? you can not order fleets around, call in troops to help you, decide when you do what (i for example would not have started with the turians if i had the choice, i would have started with the asari, then the krogan, then the quarians etc.) decide to do a mission (with the consequence of say loosing some troops while gaining some support on the political front or not doing it and keeping your troops etc.) or not do it, or ordering say another unit to do it instead of going yourself etc....all in all i feel so distant from the true happening most of the time

greetings LAX

[Bakgrind]

One thing that should be learned from this is to Peer Review without exception anything that could possibly be a franchise killing idea and or story.

[Hurbster]

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I purchased the Mass Effect trilogy for PS3 recently, and I was very curious get to the third installment and see what all the fuss is about. I'm nearly finished with it now, and I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, it's my favourite game of the trilogy.

The game itself is exceptional. The uproar was largely about the ending, which was fine in my opinion, but see what you think.

I've seen complaints about other parts, and how the game supposedly "scrapped" previously established lore or "destroyed" characters, but I'm not seeing anything that conflicts with previous plot elements. I think a lot of the detractors simply may not have been paying close enough attention to the previous installments. 

I'd consider going into the ME3 forums to discuss it in more detail, but I get enough flak as it is just for liking DA2. 

Actually, looks like you didn't pay close enough attention to ME2...

[Ninja Stan]

Bakgrind wrote...

One thing that should be learned from this is to Peer Review without exception anything that could possibly be a franchise killing idea and or story.

Which won't work even a little bit if only the fans consider it "possibly franchise killing," and even then, they won't be able to consider it as such until the game is released, at which point it's already too late, right?




EDIT: Sorry, I got distracted. Is this thread still DA3 related?

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 31 décembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[Faust1979]

I'm fine with some auto dialog and Melo drama if it helps make the story better. I don't care if it's geared towards casual fans the only thing that matters is whether the game was fun. DA2 was a lot of fun to play and if you've played the game on Xbox 360 it plays pretty much the same as DA Origins it's just far more fluid so I was more used to it

[wtfman99]

I usually lurk around but one thing that I did not like in Mass Effect 3 was that I pretty much died no matter what at the end.

I like surviving at the end of games. I liked that Morrigan had that out for me with that dark ritual. I like that Hawke didn't eat it at the end of D2. I feel like if I play a game just for my character to die no matter what at the end, it was a waste of time.

[Plaintiff]

Hurbster wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Ponendus wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I purchased the Mass Effect trilogy for PS3 recently, and I was very curious get to the third installment and see what all the fuss is about. I'm nearly finished with it now, and I'm not seeing the problem. In fact, it's my favourite game of the trilogy.

The game itself is exceptional. The uproar was largely about the ending, which was fine in my opinion, but see what you think.

I've seen complaints about other parts, and how the game supposedly "scrapped" previously established lore or "destroyed" characters, but I'm not seeing anything that conflicts with previous plot elements. I think a lot of the detractors simply may not have been paying close enough attention to the previous installments. 

I'd consider going into the ME3 forums to discuss it in more detail, but I get enough flak as it is just for liking DA2. 

Actually, looks like you didn't pay close enough attention to ME2...

Examples?

[CARL_DF90]

After going through this thread I see a lot of good ideas being thrown around and very valid points being made. I know the DA team said that they have paid attention to fan feedback for DAIII's development, but I sincerely hope that the DA team is REALLY paying attention. I don't think Bioware could really survive anymore ME3/DA2/Stars Wars-MMO level problems. In any case I hope everyone take care and has a very Happy New year!

[Jeffonl1]

Ponendus wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

If Bioware needs to learn anything from ME3 its that they need to just ignore the so called "fans" because they're a bunch of ungrateful twits that will whine endlessly no matter what you do.

I really don't like it when people tell me I'm hating on something just for my personal fun when I'm critical about it. I never wanted to not like DA2 or ME3, and I think very few people did. I don't usually preorder games I expect not to like, cause that'd be pretty damn stupid and I don't really have the money for such things.

I never felt the need to visit any forum to talk about DA:O, because I was completely enjoying myself playing it and discussing it with my friends who also played it. Was it perfect? No, but what I liked outweighed what I did not like by far. It was the same with ME, and even ME2. 
 
It wasn't like this with DA2 and ME3. There were things and changes I didn't appreciate and the need for which and thought behind I did not understand. Besides that, all of my friends were kinda cautious about what they saw and heard of the games before release, and after each respective demo decided not to get the game. To this day I'm the only one of them who played the games.

I think it's the natural thing to do for someone who started to love games and the universes they are set in to go to the official forums and follow the development of the sequel and talk about it with other fans. And it's also natural after experiencing certain disappointments to want to talk to other people to see how they felt about it. Yes, the negativity was pretty strong, but it's mostly because the appreciation of the games and settings was equally strong.

Firstly, there is a difference between being critical and 'hating on' something. Constructive criticism is always welcome in any artistic enterprise. The reaction around the entire internet about ME3 was that people were 'betrayed', people were literally screaming for developers to be fired, people were pretending to be Anonymous hackers and threatening to compromise the personal security of the dev team.

That is not criticism, it is childish and frankly frightening and malicious nonsense.

I am not saying you undertook that level of criticism, but when idiots are screaming murder, those that they are screaming at turn a deaf ear. This is why the developers rarely come here now, it is why the doctors are leaving BioWare.

It's fine to be passionate and enthusiastic about something, but for crying out loud be decent about it and remember that we are not talking about life or death and nuclear launch codes. 

The reaction was not 'pretty strong' as you say, it was outright embarassing and completely disproportionate to the problem.

"Oh, to be sure, there is such thing as destructive commentary. True ad hominem[/i] does exist in the wild. But the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?"
Always liked that commentary.

[Ponendus]

Jeffonl1 wrote...

"Oh, to be sure, there is such thing as destructive commentary. True ad hominem[/i] does exist in the wild. But the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?"
Always liked that commentary.

Because it's decent, and mature. If you want to be a jerk to people, they will be a jerk back, or give up. I also reject the notion that completely overreacting in a pack is 'mature'. If anything, that is the more childish action. People that behave like that are the ones with the 'kids gloves' on my friend.

From the look of it, it sounds from this quote that non-constructive criticism is being advocated for? What possible good does that do except make the criticiser feel superior and the critiqued feel like dirt?

I don't agree with your cherished commentary at all.

[Jeffonl1]

Ponendus wrote...

Jeffonl1 wrote...

"Oh, to be sure, there is such thing as destructive commentary. True ad hominem[/i] does exist in the wild. But the notion that artists ought only respond to constructive criticism is delirious. If games are truly art, and the teams who develop them truly artists, why should they be treated with kid’s gloves?"
Always liked that commentary.

Because it's decent, and mature. If you want to be a jerk to people, they will be a jerk back, or give up. I also reject the notion that completely overreacting in a pack is 'mature'. If anything, that is the more childish action. People that behave like that are the ones with the 'kids gloves' on my friend.

From the look of it, it sounds from this quote that non-constructive criticism is being advocated for? What possible good does that do except make the criticiser feel superior and the critiqued feel like dirt?

I don't agree with your cherished commentary at all.

You may certainly be right that some criticisms may "make the criticiser feel superior and the critiqued feel like dirt?"  But the opposite side could be "And each time I digress to offer you helpful suggestions, encouraging remarks and other pep-talk, I am not truly expressing myself. I’m merely being polite, nice, even a bit condescending — in other words, I’m being aesthetically repulsive.”

I believe the original author was simply making the point that while we must exclude "ad hominum" criticisms  (that is: personal attacks or at least informal fallacies - true destructive commentary), we must recognize valid criticism will not only be 'constructive'.  Some will be characterized as negative. The point is that no one at BioWare, who I at least view as artists, need more pats on the head.

Both types of criticism are valid - and useful.   While negative criticism can be just plain hard to hear, it still needs to be heard.  And lets be frank: Dr. Muzyka's  response (March 21) would not have happened otherwise.

I have confidence that Bioware and DA3 can indeed learn from ME3. But they must choose to listen even when they don't like what they're hearing.

 

Modifié par Jeffonl1, 01 janvier 2013 - 10:40 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

What Dragon age 3 should learn from Mass Effect 3 is that you should not make promises you are not intending to keep, for instance don't state that there will be no ABC endings, and then have an ABC ending except with colours.

So basically Bioware employees should not state anything about the game.

[JimboGee]

You know what I can't stand is when one fan pretends to speak for all. Why is not having closure a bad thing ? Why do you need to have everything explained ?  In the T.V series Lost, some things are never explained but I dont see people screaming and shouting about it. Sometimes you are left to make up your own minds about what happened. For people who watch football in the U.K one of the biggest talking points in a pub is mostly the "was it a penalty" ?

Honesty it drives me batty that people can't stand a litte unsolved mystery in their lives.  They want a big red ****ing arrow pointing to everything...Not evryone hated mass effects ending. But it's good to kno there are still some people out there who  can't think for themselves.

[samgurl775]

Things ME3 did wrong that I hope DA3 doesn't repeat:
- Devs flat out lying about various things pre release
- Auto dialogue that takes control of the character away from you
- Day 1 DLC
- Forced emotions (DA:O did this pretty bad with Return to Ostagar)
- Contradicting previously established lore