[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
History is not rife with anything of the sort. It's happened twice over the course of at least 3 millenia.[/quote]
Two millennia at most, and both instances of humans and elves coexisting as separate societies ended with humans conquering and subjugating the elves. During the nearly two millennia of elves living in human socities (the thousand years of slavery under the Magisters and the 700 years as the dregs of Andrastian socities), city elves have almost never been allowed any opportunity to rise higher in human society.
That doesn't give the Dalish must reason to want to get involved with humans again.
[quote]I was referring to the time of the Dales. When they were an established military power that managed to whoop Orlais. Obviously suddenly becoming sedentary now wouldn't help, that window closed a while ago. However it is still possible to be progressive while nomadic.[/quote]
They are progressing. They're learning more of their heritage and culture and applying it to their daily lives, which is what they want to do.
[quote]Bold - Two things number one it's a little known fact about politics that even if you're not involved in it, you are. The Dalish and the Dales don't exist in a vacuum they can't just ignore everyone and everything they don't like, the world does not work that way. You want to continue to exist as a sovereign nation then you've got to play the game.[/quote]
The game being: "Run our nation the way we say or lose your nation."
[quote]Next the Dalish were hurting people. The traders, diplomats, and missionaries violently turned away at their borders, not to mention the people of Red Crossing..[/quote]
There is no indication from either Dalish or Chantry source that the people the Orlaisians sent were "violently turned away," only that they were turned away (according to humans) or tossed out after letting themselves in (according to the Dalish). Red Crossing was only mentioned by the Chantry version, and it reeks of heavy bias, if not outright falsehood. The elves showed no interest in anything outside their border, so why would they attack a village in human territory?
[quote]Italics - The humans did nothing of the sort. They were trying to be amicable neighbours, offering trade and partnerships. If all they'd sent were missionaries you'd have a point but they tried a number of times to get along with the Dalish and they were having none of it. How would you feel if you went over to your new neighbour welcoming him to the neighbourhood and he punched you in the stomach and slammed the door in your face?[/quote]
Once again, there is no indication the elves were being as hostile as the humans imply.
In fact, let's compare both Dalish and Chantry versions of the start of the Fall of the Dales.
"Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery.
But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."
Pretty straightforward and believable, considering the Chantry's on-going history of religious intolerance. Now let's look at the Chantry version.
"A new era had begun for the elves.
But the old era wasn't through with them. In their
forest city, the elves turned again to worship their
silent, ancient gods. They became increasingly isolationist, posting Emerald Knights
who guarded [at] their borders
with jealousy, rebuking all
efforts at trade or
civilized discourse.
Dark Rumors spread
in the lands that bordered the Dales, whispers of humans captured and sacrificed to elven gods."
Between all the negative adverbs and purple prose (which I've crossed out), it seems the elves committed the attrocious crime of worshipping their own gods in their own country and resisting conversion from outside forces. When you compare both accounts, it seems the humans had little interest in elves until they learned they were worshipping their own gods, then suddenly it became
imperative to send in their missionaries. According to
both versions, the elves turned the missionaries away and the humans wouldn't stop trying to convert them. In fact, the Chantry's version implies the elves started out fairly neutral with humans and only became increasingly isolationist over time (posting guards and refusing all contact later), likely in response to increasing human pushiness.
The village of Red Crossing is only mentioned by the Chantry and holds about as much water as the "whispers of humans captured and sacrified to elven gods." Neither Dalish nor Chantry accounts gave any indication that elves were interested in what was going on outside their borders except to keep humans out, so why would they cross over into human territory and attack unless provoked, if they did it at all? (It's likely just more Chantry propoganda intended to make the elves seem much more hostile than they actually were.)
So, I don't buy this "good neighbor" spiel.
[quote]My point wasn't that it made their actions excusable it was just that your assertion that they were trying to recapture the good old days, that never existed, is inaccurate at best and completely ficticious at worst.[/quote]
Nah, I'm pretty sure you were trying to paint the humans as worse off, which they weren't.
You don't know that the "good old days" never existed. It's likely they did. Tevinter gained the power they needed to conquer the world from the magical techniques they learned from Arlathan. The Dalish live over twice as long as their city elf brethren, and even many humans. The Eluvianen clearly work and can access alternate dimensions (demonstrated by Morrigan). The Eluvianen can be researched, rebuilt and reactivated with the partial assistence of books found in Dalish camps (as Morrigan and Merrill demonstrate). Ancient elven books, artifacts, ruins, and historical knowledge are being rediscovered all the time. Even the Vartarrel, creatures of elvish lore, turn out to be real. There's clearly something to their claim of advanced magical knowledge and vastly prolonged life, if not immortality. I see no harm in rediscovering and reintegrating these treasures of the past, especially if it can improve their quality of life. It's their culture, their prerogative.
[quote]No I"m just saying there are simpler explanations than a vast international conspiracy to take those elves down a peg. Assuming of course that the Orlesians were the agressors. [/quote]
The simpler explanation being that elves were minding their own business and humans wouldn't stop trying to convert them, or that humans wanted their land and leapt at the first excuse to invade. Since both Dalish and Chantry accounts indicate the conflict started when humans tried to convert the elves against their will (aka the elves were minding their own business while humans wouldn't stop butting into theirs), it's far more likely the Orlaisians were the agressors.
[quote]Actually it really, really does. If someone has a false perception of you that causes them to attack you on sight, you have a huge incentive to clear that up.[/quote]
Not as much incentive as avoiding the hastle by leaving, especially since they don't want anything from humans.
[quote]Which is why I said both were possible. Given the arrogant and hostile attitudes of the Dalish and the fact they placed an elite armed military force on their border to keep people out I could see them attacking Red Crossing as a way of sending the message, "****** off and leave us alone."[/quote]
Once again, sources indicate the Dalish didn't start posting armed forces at their border to keep people out until after people started trying to cross their border without consent. If the attack on Red Crossing is true, they wouldn't have to if the humans actually pissed off and left them alone.
[quote]Also as you've explained Orlais being the aggressor is entirely possible too. My point was that regardless of who started it either is a foreseeable event.[/quote]
Which is why the Dalish avoid humans. Now you're getting it. =)
[quote]Yeah about that. You notice how the Dalish have one sentence covering the lead up to the war? While the Orlesian have a rather detailed account of missionaries, diplomats, and traders being turned away, obvious hostility being expressed by the Dalish culminating in an attack. The devil's in the details and anybody who keeps their history that vague is hiding something. Alternatively they're so sociopathic as a nation that they just didn't get why what they were doing upset the humans.[/quote]
As opposed to the Chantry's very biased, overly negative, and often self-contradicting purple prose that serve no purpose but to paint the elves as villainously as possible? In fact, when you examine the
Chantry version, you'll notice passages about elves' involvement in the conflict are super detailed and involve lots of flowery language and dark adverbs, whereas the passages about the Chantry's involvement are very short and straitforward. The Dalish version, on the other hand, is equally short and straightforward when talking about humans and themselves.
Which is more suspect? The people who're equally frank about both sides of the conflict or the people who go out of their way to paint the other side as villainously as possible and themselves as saintly as they can while trying gloss over actions that are are clearly very horrendous.
P.S. One can easily turn your last statement around as "they're so sociopathic as a nation that they just didn't get why what they were doing upset the elves."
[quote]Of course because clearly the only alternative to trying to recreate a lost culture is to fall in with an established one. Not like they could start forming their own or anything.[/quote]Not with humans constantly conquering and subjugating them every time they try, they can't.
[quote]I was speaking specifically of knowledge. Learning about their history and culture is more effectively done through collaboration with other organizations with similar goals. Recreating their history, trying to back track to just before the fall of Arlathan, would be the entire problem since it shows a complete lack of understanding as to what go them here in the first place. As I said, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Isolation has never worked out for the elves, ever, try something else.[/quote]
It's worked for the Dalish for the last 700 years. The only reason they haven't been crammed into Alienages or Circle Towers is because the humans have a much harder time catching a moving target. If the Dalish started trying to interact with humans, they need only look to Arlathan, the Dales and the modern city elves to see how the humans would respond to them. That is, if humans didn't attack them on sight.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...Well not sure what info Thedas is working on but let's see. Tamlen's first instinct when encountering 3 terrified humans is to kill them. If you do Marethari is only upset because it inconvenienced the clan (rather than the fact you just killed 3 people for no reason other than you could). Non-Dalish Warden meeting the Dalish, first words out of their mouth is a death threat, Hawke same deal. Dalish that Maric and Loghain encounter in Stolen Throne send them off where they're not only sure they'll die but die painfully, and lastly Genitivi seems rather certain that had he encountered any other Dalish he would have been killed.
So yeah based on that.[/quote]
And elves have every reason to distrust humans based on their historical and on-going behavior toward elves, yet you keep advocating for the Dalish to try to reach out and coexist with humans.
EDIT: Tamlen, as an individual, is a hostile racist that will stay his bow if you ask him, and there's no indication that any other example of Dalish you mentioned would seriously kill the humans they're in contact with besides the humans' own fear and prejudice. Neither the
Origins clan nor
DA2 clan make any immediate death threats that I can remember. They're just wary and ask why the non-Dalish is approaching their camp (a reasonable question as few non-elven, non-Dalish would have business in a Dalish camp they've never encountered before) and they just try to make it clear that they can and will defend themselves if the intruder tries any funny business. Which, given their on-going history of being on the receving ends of invasions and conquests, is not an entirely unreasonable concern.
[quote]Maybe not but there odds are better than if you actively alienate everybody.[/quote]
Which the elves didn't do. They minded their own business and only got defensive when humans started encroaching on their territory and forcing their religion down their throats.
[quote]You mean the nations grew cold to the Dalish because the Dalish were cold to them. Trade, cooperation, and war alliances transcend a lot of interesting boundaries when push comes to shove. Not to mention I hold to the fact that had the Dalish not been absolute pricks to everybody the whole war might not have happened.[/quote]
No, the nations grew cold to the Dalish because they found out they were worshipping their own gods. Re-read the Chantry version of the codex if you're still not convinced. And yes, sending away missionaries and increasing border patrol in response to further attempts at unwanted conversion was being absolute pricks to humans.
[quote]And the Elves could have had an impenetrable society (the Dales were able to mop the floor with Orlais they were a military power to be reckoned with and had they not brought the enitre world down on them they probably still would be) and the sole monopoly on iron bark. Stronger and lighter than steel,
can't tell me people wouldn't pay for that.[/quote]
Can't tell me they wouldn't use that against the elves once it was safely in their hands or they learned to make it without elven assistence. Dwarves control the monopoly on lyrium because they're the only ones that can physically harvest it and refine it without bleeding out of every orifice and dying a painful, messy death. The elves merely know how to craft iron bark, which the humans could learn from them as Tevinter learned how to enter the Fade from Arlathan. Money from the iron bark wouldn't do jack against actual iron bark weapons and armor being used against them in battle by humans that wanted to take them out anyway.
Considering Tevinter sank Arlathan with the magic techniques they learned from the acient elves, it's little wonder the elves of the Dales didn't want to share weapons or knowledge that gave them an edge and/or could be used against them.
Modifié par Faerunner, 20 octobre 2012 - 06:06 .
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