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[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I never got that dialogue. What does Alistair say?

See here

We... we heard the Dalish were given land in Ferelden. Is it true? -- Merrill

Yes. I wish I could say that went better. -- King Alistair

Why?! What happened? -- Merrill

It's a long story. I... I intend to make it up to your people, however. I owe an old friend of mine too much to do otherwise. -- King Alistair

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

The fact that diverse peoples and cultures have managed to reach various accommodations with each other in Thedas is incredibly relevant.  Namely because the Dalish have failed (or, more accurately: they never tried) to do anything of the sort.  More than anything else,  that indicates that the problem is heavily weighted towards the elves end.

That's like saying the fact that most races in Thedas managed not to lose the vast majority of their kingdom to the darkspawn indicates a problem with the dwarves. Dalish history is a product of their circumstances.

General User wrote...
And, to correct you, the Dalish ARE rightfully subject to human authority by virtue of the fact that they live in human lands.  The humans have simply chosen to mostly forego exercising that authority.

The Dalish do not acknowledge human authority, nor do they abide by it. The only reason the humans have chosen not to exercise it is that the Dalish are taking pains to stay unobtrusive and out of the way and keep on the move.

General User wrote...
Do you understand that the attitudes and actions the Dalish take makes enemies for them out of people with whom they would otherwise have no quarrel?

Yes, but I also understand they succesfully drive off many people who would otherwise be their enemies.

It's a tough situation all around.

General User wrote...
The pretext for the start of the war with the old Dales was the Dalish attacking an Orlesian town, which most certainly is a valid pretext for war.  Where Dalish culpability comes in is in the context leading up to that attack.  By embracing, with overt and strident militancy, such an extreme degree of isolationism and cultural revanchism, the Dalish were largely (though not exclusively mind you) responsible for creating a climate in which hostilities were all but certain to occur sooner rather than later.

Again, I feel it was totally reasonable of the Dalish to request that everyone stay the hell off their land.

General User wrote...

You know what else is justified when it comes to expansionistic empires?  Making allies to stand against them.  The Dalish didn't do that.  They were equally hostile towards the expansionist empire as they were to the mercantile free states, as they were to the non aligned tribesmen, as they were to any potential allies really. The Dalish were antagonistic towards all their neighbors, the Orlesians were just the ones that had it in their heads to do something about it.

All right, that bit was probably a mistake, I'll grand you that.

I'd have to know whether or not exposure to humans really does make elves age faster, however. Or, more importantly, whether the elves of the time believed it. If they did, I can certainly see a reason for them to want all humans off their land, not just Orlesians.

General User wrote...
I hope the Dalish don't get their own kingdom.  Because until and unless they accept the truth: that they have been largely responsible for their own misfortunes as a people, and change their attitudes and values accordingly, any new kingdom they get is going to wind up exactly like the last one.

It should be okay as long as the humans just accept the Dalish desire to be alone.

Judging from the consequences of the elves being granted land in Ferelden, that's apparently not happening.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:09 .

[DPSSOC]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
When? How? In order for the humans to have betrayed the elves there would have had to have been some trust given. Alrathan eventually just shut itself off and the Dales did it from the get go. You can't betray someone who's never spoken to you, they can't claim you owe them anything. [/quote]

Arlathan had relations with Tevinter, then they were enslaved.[/quote]
 
After cutting off all contact with them for centuries.  Any agreements they had are long since void.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan and Andraste fought alongside each other to overthrow the Imperium, and the Dales was the reward for the elves; it was taken away as a result of the elves' refusal to convert by the followers of Andraste (according to the history of the Dalish).[/quote]

Again after centuries of 0 contact.  Do you honestly expect the human nations to hold on to goodwill for that long without reinforcement?  If someone you knew, not a friend an acquaintance, that you hadn't talked to in 20 years said, "Hey remember how I helped you move 20 years ago, yeah I need you to return the favour," would you feel any level of obligation to help them?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
We have no indication that armed soldiers were sent into the Dales prior to the start of the war. Even then by all indications the war took place primarily in Orlais, it wasn't until the other nations got involved that they started pushing into Dalish territory. [/quote]

Except the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for conquering the Dales as a result of their refusal to convert, as it can be voiced even by the Surana Warden. I'd say the Dalish codex supports the idea that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of their refusal to convert.[/quote]

And I'd say that's how the Dalish and elves in general like to remember it.  However we have a conflicting account to consider, and again the Dalish codex says NOTHING there is no detail, no time scale, nothing.  Using the Dalish codex the enitre history of the Dales happened over the course of a week for all we know.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
No, if they hadn't isolated themselves they'd have seen what Tevinter was doing, surmised they'd come for them eventually, and taken action to prevent it. As I said their failing, and their fault, is that they intentionally blinded themselves and left an imperialist power to grow unsupervised. [/quote]

We know the Arlathan elves battled the Tevinter mages because of what Merrill tells us about Sundermount, and why Audacity was originally summoned.[/quote]

Tevinter's fight with Arlathan lasted 6 years, any chance it happened then?  Also that was just the fall or Arlathan and the elves spanned most of Thedas, could have been holdouts fighting much later.  Again we have no sense of when these events happened, because the Dalish are really, really bad with dates.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Not really since they aren't presented as fact. If the account said that the Dalish did sacrifice humans to their gods it'd be slander (assuming the Dalish didn't actually do that) however they simply state there were rumours of it happening, probably because people were disappearing, it happens, close to the border of a largely unknown entity. When you force people to fill in the blanks about you themselves you shouldn't be surprised what they come up with is largely inaccurate and unflattering. [/quote]

The rumors are presented with nothing to counter them in the historical Orlesian account; it's a biased account.[/quote]

Of course it's a biased account, every record of every event in every history book is a biased account.  Until we get robots writing down our history as it happens, with no means of altering it afterwards, there will never be an unbiased account.  The Dalish account is just as biased, anything ever written by anything with an opinion is biased.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. It's the elves living their own lives, on their own terms, and worshipping their own gods. That doesn't give humanity the right to send templars into their territory simply because the elves refused to convert to their religion.[/quote]

Ok you really need to stop holding up the Dalish account as some holy gospel.  First off, and I can't stress how important this is, there is absolutely no detail in it; you're extrapolating nearly 300 years of history and a war to boot from one sentence.  Second there is no corroborating evidence.  Val Royeaux and Montsimard were attacked, they did fall to the Dalish, it wasn't until after these events that the other nations got involved, hell we have no indication that the Chantry got involved before that.  The Dalish have no records of a first strike by the Orlesians, they have nothing to support the idea that they were invaded beyond the fact they eventually lost.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
So don't open relations with Orlais. They had the Free Marches across the sea or the Fereldan tribes just the other side of a mountain pass. Open relations with them. Establish military allies who will come to your aid in the event Orlais does invade, promising them the same, and Orlais is less likely to invade. [/quote]

Why would any Andrastian nation side with the elves against the seat of Andrastian faith?[/quote]

Because none of the nations Orlais conquered actually wanted to be conquered.  If being the seat of the Andrastian faith were enough to get people not to fight them they would have just walked in to other nations and said, "Oh by the way, ours."

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
Yes because despite being able to conquer it's neighbours the Dalish demonstrate in the war that they were the superior military power. I hold that Orlais wouldn't have invaded such a military power if they could get what they wanted through trade and diplomacy. Nevarra and Fereldan make sense because they were not superior military powers, it was easier, and they'd get more, to invade.

Not to mention it would have earned them a lot of good will if they hadn't sat on their hands for the entire Second Blight.[/quote]

Did the Orlesians even ask for the aid of the elves? We have no context for why there was no elven assistance, except from an account by the society that conquered the Dales.[/quote]

Ok let me seriously ask you this, you're facing a threat that nearly wiped out all of civilization before, is there any good reason not to get involved in that fight?  Is there any reason not to ask all available forces to aid you?

Modifié par DPSSOC, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:24 .

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

That's like saying the fact that most races in Thedas managed not to lose the vast majority of their kingdom to the darkspawn indicates a problem with the dwarves. Dalish history is a product of their circumstances.

The Dalish weren't dealing with darkspawn though (they actually went out of their way to avoid doing so but that's beside the point) they were dealing with people: good people, bad people, up people, down people and all sorts of in-between people.   They managed to handle them all is such a way that made all of them willing to jump on the dog pile.

The Dalish do not acknowledge human authority, nor do they abide by it. The only reason the humans have chosen not to exercise it is that the Dalish are taking pains to stay unobtrusive and out of the way and keep on the move.

Like I said, there are indeed practical reasons why human powers don't force the Dalish to comply with the law of the land.  My point was rather that those human powers, if and when they decide to do that, would be in the right.

Again, I feel it was totally reasonable of the Dalish to request that everyone stay the hell off their land.

And do you think it would also be reasonable for the Dalish to expect to remain on friendly terms with those nations whose people they just kicked out?

I'd have to know whether or not exposure to humans really does make elves age faster, however. Or, more importantly, whether the elves of the time believed it. If they did, I can certainly see a reason for them to want all humans off their land, not just Orlesians.

I thought about that too.  And the thing I keep coming back to is: if the Dalish would rather live in constant strife with their neighbors in order to regain some form of supposed immortality, that may or may not have even existed in the first place, then they are a most foolish people indeed.

It should be okay as long as the humans just accept the Dalish desire to be alone.

Judging from the consequences of the elves being granted land in Ferelden, that's apparently not happening.

The Dalish have been fostering and nurturing bad blood with any and all humans for some 1000 years.  No one should have expected something like that to go smoothly.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

No one should have expected something like that to go smoothly.

But the Humans would be at fault if they were the ones to attack the Elves first after the Fifth Blight, after the Elves gathered what forces they could to help save those very same Humans and after an Elf just saved their sorry asses.

I'd say that while it wouldn't have gone perfectly, the Elves had already made a great part in trying to have better relations with the humans by fighting in the Blight -- something history "claims" they didn't do in the Second Blight.

[MisterJB]

True. If the the humans did attack first.
As far as we know, a couple of Tamlens killed a group of poachers and the humans decided to burn the whole forest to the ground in response. We do that.
I'll wait to hear exactly what happened before passing judgement.

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

Like I said, there are indeed practical reasons why human powers don't force the Dalish to comply with the law of the land.  My point was rather that those human powers, if and when they decide to do that, would be in the right.

Conditional agreement from the legal standpoint, but I'd most likely be rooting for/helping the Dalish.

General User wrote...
And do you think it would also be reasonable for the Dalish to expect to remain on friendly terms with those nations whose people they just kicked out?

I think so, yes. It's not like the Dalish were demanding anything they weren't willing to grant.

General User wrote...
I thought about that too.  And the thing I keep coming back to is: if the Dalish would rather live in constant strife with their neighbors in order to regain some form of supposed immortality, that may or may not have even existed in the first place, then they are a most foolish people indeed.

Yeah, you'll find that if I run into a group of people that come with a health hazard of lowering my lifespan by infinity years through their mere presence, a polite separation enforced by long-range weaponry is what I'll be shooting for as well.

The fact that the modern Dalish are willing to let humans approach their caravans at all seems to suggest they either don't believe that anymore or they've decided to make that trade-off. Still, it would be intersting to know for sure.

General User wrote...
The Dalish have been fostering and nurturing bad blood with any and all humans for some 1000 years.  No one should have expected something like that to go smoothly.

The Dalish literally just came to save Ferelden's capital from the Blight and if this boon was granted then the Hero of Ferelden was Dalish as well. I would have expected a little more gratitude.

But I guess I'll hold off further judgment until we find out more detail.

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

No one should have expected something like that to go smoothly.

But the Humans would be at fault if they were the ones to attack the Elves first after the Fifth Blight, after the Elves gathered what forces they could to help save those very same Humans and after an Elf just saved their sorry asses.

I'd say that while it wouldn't have gone perfectly, the Elves had already made a great part in trying to have better relations with the humans by fighting in the Blight -- something history "claims" they didn't do in the Second Blight.

The problem is that gestures are no substitute for policy.  The Dalish don't get to act like racist pricks for centuries upon centuries at a time, honor one agreement (which wasn't even with the Kingdom of Ferelden, it was with the Grey Wardens) and expect to get along with humans afterwards.

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

Like I said, there are indeed practical reasons why human powers don't force the Dalish to comply with the law of the land.  My point was rather that those human powers, if and when they decide to do that, would be in the right.

Conditional agreement from the legal standpoint, but I'd most likely be rooting for/helping the Dalish.

Your  sympathies notwithstanding, you are at least willing to admit that reason is on my side.  That actually puts you a cut above the typical BSN ideologue.

And do you think it would also be reasonable for the Dalish to expect to remain on friendly terms with those nations whose people they just kicked out?

I think so, yes. It's not like the Dalish were demanding anything they weren't willing to grant.

You speak of grants and demands as though they were a one sided affair.   The various human nations wanted commerce, the exchange of ideas, and even a military alliance with the Old Dales.  The Dalish were willing to grant none of those, to anyone, under any circumstance.

To make endless demands and zero concessions is the height of being unreasonable.  Just as it is to wall yourself off from the world and still expect to remain on good terms with anyone on the other side of that wall.

I thought about that too.  And the thing I keep coming back to is: if the Dalish would rather live in constant strife with their neighbors in order to regain some form of supposed immortality, that may or may not have even existed in the first place, then they are a most foolish people indeed.

Yeah, you'll find that if I run into a group of people that come with a health hazard of lowering my lifespan by infinity years through their mere presence, a polite separation enforced by long-range weaponry is what I'll be shooting for as well.

The fact that the modern Dalish are willing to let humans approach their caravans at all seems to suggest they either don't believe that anymore or they've decided to make that trade-off. Still, it would be intersting to know for sure.

I think you miss the point, it's unclear at best whether elven "immortality" even existed at all, much less what form it took.  To doom one's people to never ending conflict in pursuit of something that probably never even existed is beyond foolish.

Modifié par General User, 24 octobre 2012 - 12:48 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...
you a cut above the typical BSN ideologue.

Thank you.

General User wrote...

To make endless demands and zero concessions is the height of being unreasonable.  Just as it is to wall yourself off from the world and still expect to remain on good terms with anyone on the other side of that wall.

The Dalish only made one demand: that everyone stay off their land. Considering humans may or may not the the equivalent of walking containers of radioactive waste for the elves, that doesn't seem so unreasonable.

General User wrote...
I think you miss the point, it's unclear at best whether elven "immortality" even existed at all, much less what form it took.  To doom one's people to never ending conflict in pursuit of something that probably never even existed is beyond foolish.

Hey, the humans are willing to fight the dwarves over whether or not the dwarves worship the Maker. It's a bit hypocritical to say the elves are wrong to base their policy on their own beliefs.

Just as an aside, I do hope that it turns out the longer lifespans Dalish enjoy are just a byproduct of healthy living and access to magical care and that the whole elven immortality thing is either a myth or has nothing to do with humans.

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The Dalish only made one demand: that everyone stay off their land. Considering humans may or may not the the equivalent of walking containers of radioactive waste for the elves, that doesn't seem so unreasonable.

Calling a blanket policy of militant isolationism "only one demand" is Olympic quality mental and linguistic gymnastics.  No.  The elves told missionaries they could not preach, they told traders that they could neither buy nor sell, they told the whole of bloody Thedas it could fall into the abyss.  The Dalish made many different demands to many different people under many different circumstances.

Hey, the humans are willing to fight the dwarves over whether or not the dwarves worship the Maker. It's a bit hypocritical to say the elves are wrong to base their policy on their own beliefs.

The belief in elven immortality is little more than a racist fantasy.  I'm gonna stick to the idea that it is wrong to base policy on racist fantasies.

But I'm glad you mention the dwarves though.  What happened when the dwarves moved to persecute Andrasteism in Orzammar?  Tensions got real tight, but ultimately cooler heads prevailed. Why?  Because despite vast differences and even a full-blown crisis, the relationship between Orzammar and the rest of Thedas is characterized by peaceful commerce and has been for thousands of years.  The elves would do well to follow the example the dwarves have set.

Just as an aside, I do hope that it turns out the longer lifespans Dalish enjoy are just a byproduct of healthy living and access to magical care and that the whole elven immortality thing is either a myth or has nothing to do with humans.

Perhaps it was only the nobility of Arlathan that were immortal, and that "immortality" was not some inherent characteristic of the elven race, but fueled by foul blood magic ala Avernus and Zathrian.

Modifié par General User, 24 octobre 2012 - 07:38 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

Calling a blanket policy of militant isolationism "only one demand" is Olympic quality mental and linguistic gymnastics.  No.  The elves told missionaries they could not preach, they told traders that they could neither buy nor sell, they told the whole of bloody Thedas it could fall into the abyss.  The Dalish made many different demands to many different people under many different circumstances.

Pretty sure it's still one demand: here is a line in the sand. Stay on the other side of it, no matter who you are or why you come. It's not like they were demanding that everyone else receive their missionaries and traders. They merely wanted to have no more contact between elves and humans ever under any circumstances.

Which is, again, not neighborly but fully within their rights. It seems weird that you argue the humans have legal authority over Dalish aravels but think that Dalish shouldn't be able to prevent human caravans from entering their country.

General User wrote...
The belief in elven immortality is little more than a racist fantasy.  I'm gonna stick to the idea that it is wrong to base policy on racist fantasies.

We don't actually know if it's true or not, though.

General User wrote...
But I'm glad you mention the dwarves though.  What happened when the dwarves moved to persecute Andrasteism in Orzammar?  Tensions got real tight, but ultimately cooler heads prevailed. Why?  Because despite vast differences and even a full-blown crisis, the relationship between Orzammar and the rest of Thedas is characterized by peaceful commerce and has been for thousands of years.  The elves would do well to follow the example the dwarves have set.

Again, I'm not arguing against that. But the humans could stand to give the elves fewer reasons to hate them.

General User wrote...
Perhaps it was only the nobility of Arlathan that were immortal, and that "immortality" was not some inherent characteristic of the elven race, but fueled by foul blood magic ala Avernus and Zathrian.

Sure. Let's go with the worst possible interpretation for some reason!

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

The problem is that gestures are no substitute for policy.  The Dalish don't get to act like racist pricks for centuries upon centuries at a time, honor one agreement (which wasn't even with the Kingdom of Ferelden, it was with the Grey Wardens) and expect to get along with humans afterwards. 

They've had very little contact with humans since the Fall of the Dales, actually. They tend to live nomadic lifestyles where humans run away when they see the Elves -- due to the Chantry having spread tales of them being savages that sacrifice people to their gods, as we see with Pol and which in this day and age isn't true -- and I doubt it was ever true, personally.

In fact, tales have spread of more then one group of trouble-making humans being killed by the Dalish, as Genitivi states. Trouble-making Humans. That he's willing to say that the Dalish kill the troublesome humans speaks more to the mindset of most Dalish -- who in his talks with one said that most Dalish would rather be left alone, though there are some malcontents -- being people that avoid making trouble with humans.

As I recall, the Master Craftsmen of the clans -- Varathorn and Ilen -- do trade with humans at times, sometimes going to villages. Though in DAII, Ilen stays more on Sundermount and traders come to him. But I believe in DAO he said he goes to villages at times.

I'm not saying it should've been an easy-peasy type of relationship, but it's not like the Dalish go out of their way to be antagonistic to humans. They avoid the humans and while they are bigoted towards them -- with good reason -- the majority don't actively seek to be jackasses towards them.

Some do, but then again some Humans do the same thing. 

I don't even think the Elves were given a chance with the land they were given by King Alistair/Queen Anora.

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

We don't actually know if it's true or not, though.

I'd wager blood magic factors into it, given Merrill's comments about it being the old ways, Zathrian achieving a facsimile of a long lifespan, and blood magic being able to give Avernus two centuries of life. And the soul in the phylactery was alive for hundreds of years to a few millenia through what we can assume might've been blood magic, making him an Arcane Warrior/Blood Mage.

Hell, some scholars in Thedas believe that the Magisters learned blood magic not from Dumat or any of the other Old Gods, but from the Elves of Arlathan.

General User wrote...

Perhaps it was only the nobility of Arlathan that were immortal, and that "immortality" was not some inherent characteristic of the elven race, but fueled by foul blood magic ala Avernus and Zathrian.

Well, I wouldn't say it was necessarily "foul", but certainly I wouldn't be surprised if blood magic had some part in the Elves of Arlathan being immortal, as it's called the "old ways" by Merrill and she even states that at one point in time, all the Elves of Arlathan had the gift of magic.

Granted, the latter is just a story, so it should be taken with a grain of salt. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

It's worth noting, however, that the Dales were ruled by a Council of Mages. When the Dalish land fell, those rulers formed the clans. Generally, the Keepers are descended from the nobility of the Dales.

That's what I remember reading somewhere, anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 octobre 2012 - 04:15 .

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

Calling a blanket policy of militant isolationism "only one demand" is Olympic quality mental and linguistic gymnastics.  No.  The elves told missionaries they could not preach, they told traders that they could neither buy nor sell, they told the whole of bloody Thedas it could fall into the abyss.  The Dalish made many different demands to many different people under many different circumstances.

Pretty sure it's still one demand: here is a line in the sand. Stay on the other side of it, no matter who you are or why you come. It's not like they were demanding that everyone else receive their missionaries and traders. They merely wanted to have no more contact between elves and humans ever under any circumstances.

Which is, again, not neighborly but fully within their rights. It seems weird that you argue the humans have legal authority over Dalish aravels but think that Dalish shouldn't be able to prevent human caravans from entering their country.

I said that the Dalish didn't have the right to expect to maintian peaceful relations with their neighbors after closing their borders.  I said that they weren't right, not that they didn't have the right.  Just because one has the ability or even the right to do something doesn't mean they should and it certainly doesn't absolve one of the consequences of those decisions.

As for being able, clearly the Old Dales were able to close their borders for a time, but doing so was a big part of what made the whole of Thedas into their enemies. 

The belief in elven immortality is little more than a racist fantasy.  I'm gonna stick to the idea that it is wrong to base policy on racist fantasies.

We don't actually know if it's true or not, though.

Which is exactly what makes it a fantasy.  Elven immortality is a legend, a myth.  One that the worst of the Dalish ferevently hope is true because it provides the sliver of justification they feel they need in order to justify the violent racism their culture has embraced.

But I'm glad you mention the dwarves though.  What happened when the dwarves moved to persecute Andrasteism in Orzammar?  Tensions got real tight, but ultimately cooler heads prevailed. Why?  Because despite vast differences and even a full-blown crisis, the relationship between Orzammar and the rest of Thedas is characterized by peaceful commerce and has been for thousands of years.  The elves would do well to follow the example the dwarves have set.

Again, I'm not arguing against that. But the humans could stand to give the elves fewer reasons to hate them.

*shrug* Why should they?

Perhaps it was only the nobility of Arlathan that were immortal, and that "immortality" was not some inherent characteristic of the elven race, but fueled by foul blood magic ala Avernus and Zathrian.

Sure. Let's go with the worst possible interpretation for some reason!

I'm just sayin' the only two persons we've seen so far in Dragon Age with truely remarkably long lifespans have been a cruel elven keeper sustained by the suffering of innocents, and the Warden's very own Dr. Mengele.

Modifié par General User, 25 octobre 2012 - 11:50 .

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

The problem is that gestures are no substitute for policy.  The Dalish don't get to act like racist pricks for centuries upon centuries at a time, honor one agreement (which wasn't even with the Kingdom of Ferelden, it was with the Grey Wardens) and expect to get along with humans afterwards. 

They've had very little contact with humans since the Fall of the Dales, actually. They tend to live nomadic lifestyles where humans run away when they see the Elves -- due to the Chantry having spread tales of them being savages that sacrifice people to their gods, as we see with Pol and which in this day and age isn't true -- and I doubt it was ever true, personally.

In fact, tales have spread of more then one group of trouble-making humans being killed by the Dalish, as Genitivi states. Trouble-making Humans. That he's willing to say that the Dalish kill the troublesome humans speaks more to the mindset of most Dalish -- who in his talks with one said that most Dalish would rather be left alone, though there are some malcontents -- being people that avoid making trouble with humans.

As I recall, the Master Craftsmen of the clans -- Varathorn and Ilen -- do trade with humans at times, sometimes going to villages. Though in DAII, Ilen stays more on Sundermount and traders come to him. But I believe in DAO he said he goes to villages at times.

I'm not saying it should've been an easy-peasy type of relationship, but it's not like the Dalish go out of their way to be antagonistic to humans. They avoid the humans and while they are bigoted towards them -- with good reason -- the majority don't actively seek to be jackasses towards them.

Some do, but then again some Humans do the same thing. 

I don't even think the Elves were given a chance with the land they were given by King Alistair/Queen Anora.

And I think the elves didn't know what to do with the land once they got it.  The thing is the Dlaish do go out of their way to be jackasses, it's just that they are mostly either oblivious to how offensive they are or they just don't care. 

And, as we've seen first hand with Zathrian, the elves "sacrificing people to their gods" may not be so far off the mark after all.

[MisterJB]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
Sure. Let's go with the worst possible interpretation for some reason!

Because it makes sense. There have been three confirmed cases of amazing longevity in Thedas. Zhatrian, Avernus and the Darkspawn.
The first two were kept alive by Blood Magic. The last group is sustained by the Taint and, if the Chantry is right, blood magic was involved in the Tevinter invasion of the Golden City which caused the creation of the darkspawn.
What makes more sense? That elves were biologically immortal and aged purely out of simple contact with humans (which don't cause the same effect in any other of the races in Thedas) or that the acient elves used blood magic to extend their lifespan and once Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and elven culture, they were unable to perform the rituals which were forgotten with the passage of time.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2012 - 01:25 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that Orlais was invading it's neighbors for centuries, it doesn't seem that anything has dissuaded the Orlesian Empire from continuing that course of action.

If this is why the elves were hostile, that still doesn't excuse them for simply assuming the humans would be hostile and turn down any attempts to civilized discourse. That's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Emperor Drakon notes that his attempts to invade the Free Marches up were interrupted because of issues with the Dales. I don't think the Orlesian Empire and the Dales were on friendly terms at all, which is expected when your neighbor is conquering and converting everyone to the Chantry of Andraste and a neighboring nation refuses to capitulate to the human religion.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the Dalish express that the human nations grew cold towards them because they didn't worship the Maker; the Chantry (and the Andrastians who follow the Chantry of Andraste) see non-Andrastians as "heathens."

I do not doubt that is how the dalish view the reasons for the war. I do, however, doubt that any self respecting nation is going to put matters of the faith above that of state.

And if the human nations really did grow cold towards the Dales because of the way they treated any missionaries sent, the smart thing to do would be to allow them entry. And don't tell me the elves didn't have to if they didn't want to. This isn't about what is right, it's about what is smart.

Allow a few missionaries in. They preach a bit, open a Chantry and, suddenly, you are surrounded by friends rather than foes.

I honestly don't understand the mindset of blaming the Dales for not capitulating to the Chantry in their demands to convert. The elves were under no obligation to abandon their religious beliefs or their way of life to accomodate the Chantry of Andraste.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves of the Dales didn't seem to make that proclamation; they simply sought to be left alone, which is why the Emerald Guardians kept outsiders out of their nation.

Refusing any contact with your neighbours on the grounds that they are untrustworthy and mere contact with them or their culture "curses elves with mortality" is quite hostile.

I doubt the elves put it in those terms, but we already know Orlais is untrustworthy. Just ask the leaders of Nevarra or Ferelden.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And the war with Orlais transpired, according to the Dalish, when the templars invaded their sovereign territory. Even the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for invading the Dales as a result of the elves' refusal to adopt the religious beliefs (as my Surana Warden pointed out to the priest of Andraste). 

And my Human Noble, Aedan Cousland, can point out to the elves of the brecillian forest that it was a war the elves started. Who is right and who is wrong? 

The Cousland Warden echoes the Orlesian version, written by the empire that has been conquering other nations since it's inception.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Emperor Drakon notes that his attempts to invade the Free Marches up were interrupted because of issues with the Dales. I don't think the Orlesian Empire and the Dales were on friendly terms at all, which is expected when your neighbor is conquering and converting everyone to the Chantry of Andraste and a neighboring nation refuses to capitulate to the human religion.

Since when did allowing a few peaceful missionaries to preach to whoever elves would listen equals capitulation?
At least Orlais attempted to extablish friendly terms between themselves and the Dales. Unfortunately, the elves would have none of it.

I honestly don't understand the mindset of blaming the Dales for not capitulating to the Chantry in their demands to convert. The elves were under no obligation to abandon their religious beliefs or their way of life to accomodate the Chantry of Andraste.

Oh sweet Maker...
First, they were disrespecting the woman who freed them.
Second, a Chantry here and there on the Dales is not forcing anyone to abandon their religious beliefs.
Third, I don't care in the sligthest about their "obligations". Their isolationism is stupid, stupid, stupid.

I doubt the elves put it in those terms, but we already know Orlais is untrustworthy. Just ask the leaders of Nevarra or Ferelden.

Because elves have always abstained themselves from showing humans how much of a plague they consider them to be?
And because Orlais is an expansionist empire, that means the Dales could no wrong? Could not be idiotic in their way of dealing with Orlais?
If someone is untrustworthy but powerful, you offer one hand and arm the other. You don't take every opportunity possible to insult them and every nation that could become your ally.

The Cousland Warden echoes the Orlesian version, written by the empire that has been conquering other nations since it's inception.

And the Elven Warden echoes the Dalish version, written by the prejudiced and self righteous nation of people that would have a personal interest in making themselves look like the opressed who did no wrong.
There were other nations involved in the war which makes the human version potentially less biased than the elven.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2012 - 07:52 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emperor Drakon notes that his attempts to invade the Free Marches up were interrupted because of issues with the Dales. I don't think the Orlesian Empire and the Dales were on friendly terms at all, which is expected when your neighbor is conquering and converting everyone to the Chantry of Andraste and a neighboring nation refuses to capitulate to the human religion.

Since when did allowing a few peaceful missionaries to preach to whoever elves would listen equals capitulation?
At least Orlais attempted to extablish friendly terms between themselves and the Dales. Unfortunately, the elves would have none of it.

Trying to convert the elves in the Dales isn't my idea of "friendly terms", especially when your response to the elves refusing to convert is to send in templars.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I honestly don't understand the mindset of blaming the Dales for not capitulating to the Chantry in their demands to convert. The elves were under no obligation to abandon their religious beliefs or their way of life to accomodate the Chantry of Andraste.

Oh sweet Maker...
First, they were disrespecting the woman who freed them.
Second, a Chantry here and there on the Dales is not forcing anyone to abandon their religious beliefs.
Third, I don't care in the sligthest about their "obligations". Their isolationism is stupid, stupid, stupid.

You're forgetting Shartan.

While you're welcome to think it's "stupid" for the elves to want to restore themselves to who they once were, it was their right to pursue that path. The elves of the Dales were under no obligation to permit a Chantry any more than the Andrastian nations have an obligation to permit the Qunari to spread the Qun.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I doubt the elves put it in those terms, but we already know Orlais is untrustworthy. Just ask the leaders of Nevarra or Ferelden.

Because elves have always abstained themselves from showing humans how much of a plague they consider them to be?
And because Orlais is an expansionist empire, that means the Dales could no wrong? Could not be idiotic in their way of dealing with Orlais?
If someone is untrustworthy but powerful, you offer one hand and arm the other. You don't take every opportunity possible to insult them and every nation that could become your ally.

It isn't an insult if the elves were simply trying to live their lives, on their own terms, in their own nation.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Cousland Warden echoes the Orlesian version, written by the empire that has been conquering other nations since it's inception. 

And the Elven Warden echoes the Dalish version, written by the prejudiced and self righteous nation of people that would have a personal interest in making themselves look like the opressed who did no wrong.
There were other nations involved in the war which makes the human version potentially less biased than the elven.

The Elven Warden is likely a descendent of one of the elves who lived in the Dales, so it makes sense.

Furthermore, the other nations became involved when the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the Dales.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to convert the elves in the Dales isn't my idea of "friendly terms", especially when your response to the elves refusing to convert is to send in templars.

When did the sharing of culture and ideas automatically means hostility? Hostility is to kick innocent people from your country; assuming they didn't just kill them; because you believe their presence is a plague.
Diplomacy and trading of resources. Is that hostility as well?

You're forgetting Shartan.

Seems to me the elves are the ones forgetting Shartan. He was willing to work with humans.

While you're welcome to think it's "stupid" for the elves to want to restore themselves to who they once were, it was their right to pursue that path. The elves of the Dales were under no obligation to permit a Chantry any more than the Andrastian nations have an obligation to permit the Qunari to spread the Qun.

And by "who they once were", you mean the people whose city sunk into the Stone. Of course, why wouldn't they want to return to that?

If allowing the qunari to spread the qun is a way of avoiding a potentially disastruous war, then it is exactly what should be done and to refuse it is utter foolishness that stems from nothing but racism and intolerance.

It isn't an insult if the elves were simply trying to live their lives, on their own terms, in their own nation.

If a nation comes to parlay with the Dales and tries to be their friend or partner and they refuse it on the basis humans are untrusthworthy slavers whose very presence is a blight on elven purity, that is quite insulting and they shouldn't have been surprised when the human nations grew cold towards them.

The Elven Warden is likely a descendent of one of the elves who lived in the Dales, so it makes sense.

That he has been told the Dalish version, sure. That doesn't make it any less biased.

Furthermore, the other nations became involved when the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the Dales.

They are still more numerous accounts that those on the elven side. If nothing else, they can at least vouch for the destruction the elves spread on Orlais, regardless of how it started.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2012 - 08:56 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Trying to convert the elves in the Dales isn't my idea of "friendly terms", especially when your response to the elves refusing to convert is to send in templars.[/quote]

When did the sharing of culture and ideas automatically means hostility? Hostility is to kick innocent people from your country; assuming they didn't just kill them; because you believe their presence is a plague.
Diplomacy and trading of resources. Is that hostility as well? [/quote]

Trying to impose your religion in people who have a different set of beliefs isn't the sharing of culture and ideas.  Sending soldiers because the elves refused to convert to the human religion was the response to the elves kicking out the missionaries.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're forgetting Shartan.[/quote]

Seems to me the elves are the ones forgetting Shartan. He was willing to work with humans. [/quote]

Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people from slavery; that doesn't mean his people need to capitulate to the Chantry.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

While you're welcome to think it's "stupid" for the elves to want to restore themselves to who they once were, it was their right to pursue that path. The elves of the Dales were under no obligation to permit a Chantry any more than the Andrastian nations have an obligation to permit the Qunari to spread the Qun. [/quote]

And by "who they once were", you mean the people whose city sunk into the Stone. Of course, why wouldn't they want to return to that? [/quote]

I was thinking along the lines of being immortal and mastering the arcane.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't an insult if the elves were simply trying to live their lives, on their own terms, in their own nation.[/quote]

If a nation comes to parlay with the Dales and tries to be their friend or partner and they refuse it on the basis humans are untrusthworthy slavers whose very presence is a blight on elven purity, that is quite insulting and they shouldn't have been surprised when the human nations grew cold towards them. [/quote]

I'm guessing the Emerald Knights simply turned people away, since the elves were losing their magic and already lost their immortality because of contact with humanity.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Elven Warden is likely a descendent of one of the elves who lived in the Dales, so it makes sense.[/quote]

That he has been told the Dalish version, sure. That doesn't make it any less biased. [/quote]

As opposed to the Orleisan version? And it's interesting how the priest of Andraste immediately condemns The Warden as a "heathen" if he admits he doesn't worship the Maker.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, the other nations became involved when the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the Dales.
[/quote]

They are still more numerous accounts that those on the elven side. If nothing else, they can at least vouch for the destruction the elves spread on Orlais, regardless of how it started.[/quote]

The Orlesians and the Chantry underestimated the elves, that much is certain.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to impose your religion in people who have a different set of beliefs isn't the sharing of culture and ideas.  Sending soldiers because the elves refused to convert to the human religion was the response to the elves kicking out the missionaries.

If the Chantry sent templars, it was because the elves showed hostility to andrastians. The whole thing could have been avoided if the elves had simply showed some religious and racial tolerance. Only elves who wished to would have converted.

Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people from slavery; that doesn't mean his people need to capitulate to the Chantry.

Because one or two chantrys in elven territory is capitulation. And here I tought it was cooperation, coexistance.
Shartan was willing to work with humans to ensure the freedom and existence of his people. The elves decided to completely isolate themselves from their allies.

I was thinking along the lines of being immortal and mastering the arcane.

Assuming that is true, it still didn't stop tem from falling to Tevinter. It's time to change tactics.

I'm guessing the Emerald Knights simply turned people away, since the elves were losing their magic and already lost their immortality because of contact with humanity.

The elves never lost a chance to inform us how much they hate humans and why.
And it's stupid to hold a barely defined concept of immortality that may have never existed in the first place over a lasting nation.
It's time for the elves to let go the past if they whish to have a place in Thedas. This is not Arlathan, there are other races living there now and they can't escape this fact.

As opposed to the Orleisan version?

Orlesian, Ferelden, Nevarran, Free Marcher, etc versions actually. I admit that some bias is to be expected but, at least, they show a modicrum of objectivity. The human version speaks of border conflicts, of Orlais declaring war after Red Crossing, of elves pushing into human territory.
The dalish version would have us believe this was fought entirely over the worship of the Maker.

And it's interesting how the priest of Andraste immediately condemns The Warden as a "heathen" if he admits he doesn't worship the Maker.

Which is a fault of that priest in particular rather than the Chantry in general. For instance, Grand Cleric Elthina believed in allowing those who wished to join the Qun to do so peacefully.
The elves have never been above throwing insults the human's way. They have their brutes and their compassionates, same as humans.

The Orlesians and the Chantry underestimated the elves, that much is certain.

Is that a source of pride? Innocents were brutalized, murdered.
Regardless, I wish the Dales and the more recent Dalish and City Elves didn't seem so eager on repeating the mistakes of Arlathan. They should end these ridiculous notions of isolationism and attempt to live alongside humans.
When an elven familty buys a house outside the alienage, don't look upon them with pity. Help protect it. Have more elves join the guardsmen. It will be extremely hard but this is how elves will earn a home that can last. 

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 octobre 2012 - 09:51 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

MisterJB wrote...

Since when did allowing a few peaceful missionaries to preach to whoever elves would listen equals capitulation?
At least Orlais attempted to extablish friendly terms between themselves and the Dales. Unfortunately, the elves would have none of it.

Since always. Seriously, if someone sent missionaries into my country, my first reactions would be to assume they're gearing up for an invasion. Same thing with traders and diplomats.

Of course kicking those out tended not to end well either, but at least you got to go out fighting instead of just folding over and having your country taken anyway.

Don't see where people are getting the idea of missionaries as 'peaceful', especially since the Chantry pretty clearly means to eliminate all competing religions one way or the other. (And yes I know some of the Chantry members are more tolerant than that, but the ones who aren't seem to be a lot more effective at starting conflicts than the tolerant faction is at preventing them.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Seems to me the elves are the ones forgetting Shartan. He was willing to work with humans

And his spirit says "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". It was an alliance of convenience meant to overturn the the Imperium.

His last words "But She was betrayed, and so were we" seems to imply that the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Elves being betrayed. But that's only an interpretation, as it could easily be taken to mean just the rebellion itself was betrayed.

Nevertheless, he was working with Andraste mainly out of convenience because she was fighting the Imperium. He respected her and followed her, but only because it was beneficial to him and his people.

That the Chantry has now declared the Canticle of Shartan a Dissonant Verse and calls anyone who reads it, recites it, or acknowledges it a heretic seems to point to them wanting to punish the Elves in ways that are uncalled for. It adds insult to injury and seems to be a move to make Humans forget the part Elves played in Andraste's Exalted March on the Imperium -- something Sister Petrine says has happened.

I don't think we can even believe the whole "Red Crossing" incident at its word, because history is written by the victors. 

And who won the war against the Dales? Orlais/the Chantry.

MisterJB wrote...

Since when did allowing a few peaceful missionaries to preach to whoever elves would listen equals capitulation?

When have we ever seen the Chantry stop spreading its religion? Even Orzammar, who trades regularly with the Chantry and interacts somewhat with the surface lands, is victim to members of the Chantry trying to convert them -- and members of the Chantry call Dwarves heathens and heretics.

You open up your borders to one Chantry, and inevitably that Chantry will begin pushing further in. And then further in. And further... and further.

The Chantry itself notes that they must spread the Chant of Light to the entire world, so that the Maker can return. While nice from a religious perspective in the eyes of the populus, underneath it belies an ulterior motive to have political clout all over the world. 

It's not immediate capitulation, but's it's still capitulation. 

Should they maybe have traded with the human lands? Maybe, but they certainly can't be faulted for not wanting any missionaries in their lands.

Elves and Dwarves traded during Arlathan's time, IIRC. I know Cad'Halash gave shelter to Arlathan refugees, indicating that the Elves and Dwarves had a very friendly relationship with one another -- until Kal-Sharok decided to kill the entire thaig's denizens, Dwarf and Elf alike, to preserve a trading relationship with Tevinter despite the fact they were also trading with the Avvar at this time.

First, they were disrespecting the woman who freed them.

Not really. They acknowledged her part in freeing them, but just don't see her as worthy of worship. It's in the same vein as the Chantry acknowledging the Old Gods' existence, but believing they're not worthy of worship. It's a difference on how to see religious figures, but nothing really disrespectful, save for in the eyes of the actual people worshipping Andraste.

The Elves respect her and admire her and are grateful to her for giving them their own homeland. They just don't see her as being worthy of worship. There's nothing really wrong with that.

MisterJB wrote...

And because Orlais is an expansionist empire, that means the Dales could no wrong? Could not be idiotic in their way of dealing with Orlais?

Given the fact that Orlais is expansionistic and the Dales was an isolationist nation, I'm inclined to believe Orlais is the more suspect group then the Dales. And when you add in history being written by the victors, Orlais' story of "Elves performing human sacrifice" and "assaulting a village on the border of the Dales" seems more like trying to justify an invasion of the Dales then actually being truthful.

General User wrote...

And I think the elves didn't know what to do with the land once they got it. The thing is the Dalish do go out of their way to be jackasses, it's just that they are mostly either oblivious to how offensive they are or they just don't care.

Not really. The extent of their "hostility" boils down to "Hold shemlen! Your kind are not welcome among the Dalish" as a starting point, until such time as a human begins to act suspiciously.

They don't threaten unless a Human tries to push their presence into the clan. And let's be honest, if you're saying "Nope, I'm going in" continuously while people are refusing you access to their group, that is going to raise some warning bells. More so if they ask you what your business is with the clan -- like Mithra did to the Warden -- and you refuse to answer.

They don't insult the humans, as shemlen is an Elven word meaning "quick children" -- and considering a Human lifespan is less then a Dalish's lifespan, there's some truth to that meaning, even if it's only by a couple decades these days -- and if Humans have actual business with the clan, they will let them in. 

On the condition that if they cause trouble, things will get dire. Which is understandable. If a human was killing Elves left and right or making other sorts of trouble in the clan, that's not something that would be just accepted. The Elves want to ensure that their people are safe, as throughout history they've been persecuted by humans -- Tevinter, the fall of the Dales, the Clayne that attacked Ilen's grandfather's clansmen, etc.

They see themselves as literally dying out. Not just in culture, but in population as well. They want to protect what little they have left.


The only time Shemlen becomes a slur is when it's used by City Elves and shortened to "shem" or in cases where the Dalish are made incredibly angry and they use the full word in a fit of pique.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:32 .