[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to convert the elves in the Dales isn't my idea of "friendly terms", especially when your response to the elves refusing to convert is to send in templars.[/quote]
When did the sharing of culture and ideas automatically means hostility? Hostility is to kick innocent people from your country; assuming they didn't just kill them; because you believe their presence is a plague.
Diplomacy and trading of resources. Is that hostility as well? [/quote]
Trying to impose your religion in people who have a different set of beliefs isn't the sharing of culture and ideas. Sending soldiers because the elves refused to convert to the human religion was the response to the elves kicking out the missionaries.[/quote]
Sweet merciful heaven. First off sending people to share their religious teachings is not imposing them on anybody. Jehovas Witnesses who come to my door, or Mormons who stop me on the street are not imposing their beliefs on me; they may be irritating but they aren't imposing.
Second only the Dalish claim the war was over faith. The Chantry nations could easily have run with tales of the Dalish sacrificing humans to their gods and the Exalted March was a glorious and righteous victory of the Maker's chosen over the savage heathens. That's not the story they've told. If the conflict were truly over faith why wouldn't the Chantry run with that too? Why if it was truly an idealogical war make up all the stuff about border skirmishes and an attack on a village? Why, what's the point?
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You're forgetting Shartan.[/quote]
Seems to me the elves are the ones forgetting Shartan. He was willing to work with humans. [/quote]
Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people from slavery; that doesn't mean his people need to capitulate to the Chantry.[/quote]
Who's suggesting they do? Since when is allowing another religion to preach their views capitulation? The Chantry didn't march an army of Templars to their border and scream convert or die as an opening salvo, they sent people to ask if they could share their teachings with the Elves and build a church for any who were interested in following them.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
While you're welcome to think it's "stupid" for the elves to want to restore themselves to who they once were, it was their right to pursue that path. The elves of the Dales were under no obligation to permit a Chantry any more than the Andrastian nations have an obligation to permit the Qunari to spread the Qun. [/quote]
And by "who they once were", you mean the people whose city sunk into the Stone. Of course, why wouldn't they want to return to that? [/quote]
I was thinking along the lines of being immortal and mastering the arcane.[/quote]
Which amounted to...:looks above:...yeah that.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Elven Warden is likely a descendent of one of the elves who lived in the Dales, so it makes sense.[/quote]
That he has been told the Dalish version, sure. That doesn't make it any less biased. [/quote]
As opposed to the Orleisan version? And it's interesting how the priest of Andraste immediately condemns The Warden as a "heathen" if he admits he doesn't worship the Maker.[/quote]
Both versions are biased, accept it. Actually the priest thing isn't all that interesting. Hell if I were to walk into a church in my neighbourhood and professed my non-belief I'd be called a heathen and probably have at least one bible thrown at me. "If you don't follow our tenents you are a heathen and wallowing in evil" is a common staple of monotheism.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Furthermore, the other nations became involved when the Chantry declared an Exalted March on the Dales.
[/quote]
Because the elves had pushed all the way to the doorsteps of Val Royeaux and weren't stopping. Which raises an interesting question; why, if the war was over Templars invading the Dales, did the Dalish keep pushing? If your only issue with someone is that they're trespassing on your property you generally stop chasing them once their off or at most a little ways off, you don't chase them to their house.
The Eluvian: Why it's Bad for the Dalish
Débuté par
DPSSOC
, oct. 17 2012 02:07
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 04:34
DPSSOC
-
- Members
- 3 033 messages
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
They don't insult the humans, as shemlen is an Elven word meaning "quick children"
Yes because there's absolutely nothing insulting or condescending about calling a grown ass man/woman "child".
Modifié par DPSSOC, 26 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .
#78
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 04:48
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 988 messages
DPSSOC wrote...
Yes because there's absolutely nothing insulting or condescending about calling a grown ass man/woman "child".
They call the Dwarves children as well -- specifically, Children of the Stone. The Dwarves don't really care what they're called.
Well, save for Oghren. But Oghren's jimmies get rustled on just about anything unless he's drunk.
#79
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 12:25
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 587 messages
Let's call things what they are, ok? "Shemlen" is a racial slur, nothing more, nothing less. It implies humans are culturally and intelectually inferior to elves.
Humans may be my favorite race but I can acknowledge "knife ears" is a racial slur.
Humans may be my favorite race but I can acknowledge "knife ears" is a racial slur.
#80
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 12:47
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 587 messages
It was still an alliance. Shartan was willing to work with humans to ensure the freedom and survival of his people, regardless of how he personally felt about them. The elves of the Dales were not.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
And his spirit says "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". It was an alliance of convenience meant to overturn the the Imperium.
Another interpretation: Shartan is an elf, of course he will think humans are at fault. As the Archon's wife shows, spirits are capable of being biased.His last words "But She was betrayed, and so were we" seems to imply that the Fall of the Dales was the result of the Elves being betrayed. But that's only an interpretation, as it could easily be taken to mean just the rebellion itself was betrayed.
Which is understandable after the Dales sacked Val Royeaux and did Maker knows what to the population.That the Chantry has now declared the Canticle of Shartan a Dissonant Verse and calls anyone who reads it, recites it, or acknowledges it a heretic seems to point to them wanting to punish the Elves in ways that are uncalled for. It adds insult to injury and seems to be a move to make Humans forget the part Elves played in Andraste's Exalted March on the Imperium -- something Sister Petrine says has happened.
I'd be bitter too.
Unless the losers have been wiped out, which the elves weren't, they too are capable of writing stories.I don't think we can even believe the whole "Red Crossing" incident at its word, because history is written by the victors.
And who won the war against the Dales? Orlais/the Chantry.
I admit that some bias is to be expected in any version but, at least, the humans show a
modicrum of objectivity. They speak of border conflicts,
of Orlais declaring war after Red Crossing, of elves pushing into human
territory.
The dalish version would have us believe this was fought entirely over the worship of the Maker.
The dwarves also consider themselves above humans. No two races truly get along in Thedas but the dwarves have the intelligence to see that antagonizing two of the most powerful groups of Thedas, Tevinter and the Chantry, is to court death.When have we ever seen the Chantry stop spreading its religion? Even Orzammar, who trades regularly with the Chantry and interacts somewhat with the surface lands, is victim to members of the Chantry trying to convert them -- and members of the Chantry call Dwarves heathens and heretics.
You open up your borders to one Chantry, and inevitably that Chantry will begin pushing further in. And then further in. And further... and further.
The Chantry itself notes that they must spread the Chant of Light to the entire world, so that the Maker can return. While nice from a religious perspective in the eyes of the populus, underneath it belies an ulterior motive to have political clout all over the world.
It's not immediate capitulation, but's it's still capitulation.
Should they maybe have traded with the human lands? Maybe, but they certainly can't be faulted for not wanting any missionaries in their lands.
They extablished a relationship of peaceful trading with both groups which ensures none has any vented interest in going to war with the dwarves which is the smart thing to do.
The dwarves allowed the opening of a chantry in order to appease the...well, Chantry and the Divine seemed content with that, showing indication of sending a few templars to Orzammar only after Andrastians were killed without provocation.
Those who don't wish to worship her are free to do so. Not allowing places of worship in their land is disrespectful to Andraste.Not really. They acknowledged her part in freeing them, but just don't see her as worthy of worship. It's in the same vein as the Chantry acknowledging the Old Gods' existence, but believing they're not worthy of worship. It's a difference on how to see religious figures, but nothing really disrespectful, save for in the eyes of the actual people worshipping Andraste.
The Elves respect her and admire her and are grateful to her for giving them their own homeland. They just don't see her as being worthy of worship. There's nothing really wrong with that.
For an isolationist nation, they sure seemed eager to push into human lands. And all of this over the Chantry, supposedly, sending templars?Given the fact that Orlais is expansionistic and the Dales was an isolationist nation, I'm inclined to believe Orlais is the more suspect group then the Dales.
Either the elves overreacted or a few of them were quite eager to kill every human in sight.
#81
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 04:09
General User
-
- Members
- 3 315 messages
Shartan joined forces with Andraste and together they overthrew a great evil. It's a pity Shartan's successors haven't followed his example.
#82
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 06:51
Xilizhra
-
- Members
- 30 873 messages
Utterly irrelevant. Andraste is dead and the Dalish cannot harm her by disrespect. And the Chantry isn't Andraste's legacy, it's Drakon's.Those who don't wish to worship her are free to do so. Not allowing places of worship in their land is disrespectful to Andraste.
#83
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:07
LobselVith8
-
- Members
- 16 993 messages
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arlathan had relations with Tevinter, then they were enslaved.[/quote]
After cutting off all contact with them for centuries. Any agreements they had are long since void. [/quote]
I think enslaving men, women, and children is reason enough to condemn Tevinter. The elves were losing their immortality and their magical ability; I don't think that warranted Tevinter's response.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan and Andraste fought alongside each other to overthrow the Imperium, and the Dales was the reward for the elves; it was taken away as a result of the elves' refusal to convert by the followers of Andraste (according to the history of the Dalish).[/quote]
Again after centuries of 0 contact. Do you honestly expect the human nations to hold on to goodwill for that long without reinforcement? If someone you knew, not a friend an acquaintance, that you hadn't talked to in 20 years said, "Hey remember how I helped you move 20 years ago, yeah I need you to return the favour," would you feel any level of obligation to help them? [/quote]
The elves were losing their magical ability, they lost their immorality, and they simply wanted to restore their culture and heritage in the Dales. You keep vilifying the Dales for this, while acting like the imperialistic empire that invaded them for refusing to convert is the victim here.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for conquering the Dales as a result of their refusal to convert, as it can be voiced even by the Surana Warden. I'd say the Dalish codex supports the idea that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of their refusal to convert.[/quote]
And I'd say that's how the Dalish and elves in general like to remember it. However we have a conflicting account to consider, and again the Dalish codex says NOTHING there is no detail, no time scale, nothing. Using the Dalish codex the enitre history of the Dales happened over the course of a week for all we know. [/quote]
Except the Dalish protagonist can voice the same thing: that the Dales was invaded for the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
We know the Arlathan elves battled the Tevinter mages because of what Merrill tells us about Sundermount, and why Audacity was originally summoned.[/quote]
Tevinter's fight with Arlathan lasted 6 years, any chance it happened then? Also that was just the fall or Arlathan and the elves spanned most of Thedas, could have been holdouts fighting much later. Again we have no sense of when these events happened, because the Dalish are really, really bad with dates. [/quote]
They were enslaved. What did you expect?
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. It's the elves living their own lives, on their own terms, and worshipping their own gods. That doesn't give humanity the right to send templars into their territory simply because the elves refused to convert to their religion.[/quote]
Ok you really need to stop holding up the Dalish account as some holy gospel. First off, and I can't stress how important this is, there is absolutely no detail in it; you're extrapolating nearly 300 years of history and a war to boot from one sentence. Second there is no corroborating evidence. Val Royeaux and Montsimard were attacked, they did fall to the Dalish, it wasn't until after these events that the other nations got involved, hell we have no indication that the Chantry got involved before that. The Dalish have no records of a first strike by the Orlesians, they have nothing to support the idea that they were invaded beyond the fact they eventually lost. [/quote]
When one account is by a group of people who want nothing to do with humanity, and the other is by an empire that has invaded other nations for centuries (and is inclined to continue doing so in the present), then I'm more inclined to trust the former over the latter.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any Andrastian nation side with the elves against the seat of Andrastian faith?[/quote]
Because none of the nations Orlais conquered actually wanted to be conquered. If being the seat of the Andrastian faith were enough to get people not to fight them they would have just walked in to other nations and said, "Oh by the way, ours." [/quote]
Emperor Drakon converted the places he conquered during his reign, and the other nations became Andrastian. The same isn't true for the Dales, where the elves worshipped the Creators and refused to convert to the religion of Drakon or his successors.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Did the Orlesians even ask for the aid of the elves? We have no context for why there was no elven assistance, except from an account by the society that conquered the Dales.[/quote]
Ok let me seriously ask you this, you're facing a threat that nearly wiped out all of civilization before, is there any good reason not to get involved in that fight? Is there any reason not to ask all available forces to aid you?[/quote]
My response isn't necessarily the same as the Orlesian leadership at the time.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arlathan had relations with Tevinter, then they were enslaved.[/quote]
After cutting off all contact with them for centuries. Any agreements they had are long since void. [/quote]
I think enslaving men, women, and children is reason enough to condemn Tevinter. The elves were losing their immortality and their magical ability; I don't think that warranted Tevinter's response.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan and Andraste fought alongside each other to overthrow the Imperium, and the Dales was the reward for the elves; it was taken away as a result of the elves' refusal to convert by the followers of Andraste (according to the history of the Dalish).[/quote]
Again after centuries of 0 contact. Do you honestly expect the human nations to hold on to goodwill for that long without reinforcement? If someone you knew, not a friend an acquaintance, that you hadn't talked to in 20 years said, "Hey remember how I helped you move 20 years ago, yeah I need you to return the favour," would you feel any level of obligation to help them? [/quote]
The elves were losing their magical ability, they lost their immorality, and they simply wanted to restore their culture and heritage in the Dales. You keep vilifying the Dales for this, while acting like the imperialistic empire that invaded them for refusing to convert is the victim here.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for conquering the Dales as a result of their refusal to convert, as it can be voiced even by the Surana Warden. I'd say the Dalish codex supports the idea that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of their refusal to convert.[/quote]
And I'd say that's how the Dalish and elves in general like to remember it. However we have a conflicting account to consider, and again the Dalish codex says NOTHING there is no detail, no time scale, nothing. Using the Dalish codex the enitre history of the Dales happened over the course of a week for all we know. [/quote]
Except the Dalish protagonist can voice the same thing: that the Dales was invaded for the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
We know the Arlathan elves battled the Tevinter mages because of what Merrill tells us about Sundermount, and why Audacity was originally summoned.[/quote]
Tevinter's fight with Arlathan lasted 6 years, any chance it happened then? Also that was just the fall or Arlathan and the elves spanned most of Thedas, could have been holdouts fighting much later. Again we have no sense of when these events happened, because the Dalish are really, really bad with dates. [/quote]
They were enslaved. What did you expect?
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. It's the elves living their own lives, on their own terms, and worshipping their own gods. That doesn't give humanity the right to send templars into their territory simply because the elves refused to convert to their religion.[/quote]
Ok you really need to stop holding up the Dalish account as some holy gospel. First off, and I can't stress how important this is, there is absolutely no detail in it; you're extrapolating nearly 300 years of history and a war to boot from one sentence. Second there is no corroborating evidence. Val Royeaux and Montsimard were attacked, they did fall to the Dalish, it wasn't until after these events that the other nations got involved, hell we have no indication that the Chantry got involved before that. The Dalish have no records of a first strike by the Orlesians, they have nothing to support the idea that they were invaded beyond the fact they eventually lost. [/quote]
When one account is by a group of people who want nothing to do with humanity, and the other is by an empire that has invaded other nations for centuries (and is inclined to continue doing so in the present), then I'm more inclined to trust the former over the latter.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any Andrastian nation side with the elves against the seat of Andrastian faith?[/quote]
Because none of the nations Orlais conquered actually wanted to be conquered. If being the seat of the Andrastian faith were enough to get people not to fight them they would have just walked in to other nations and said, "Oh by the way, ours." [/quote]
Emperor Drakon converted the places he conquered during his reign, and the other nations became Andrastian. The same isn't true for the Dales, where the elves worshipped the Creators and refused to convert to the religion of Drakon or his successors.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Did the Orlesians even ask for the aid of the elves? We have no context for why there was no elven assistance, except from an account by the society that conquered the Dales.[/quote]
Ok let me seriously ask you this, you're facing a threat that nearly wiped out all of civilization before, is there any good reason not to get involved in that fight? Is there any reason not to ask all available forces to aid you?[/quote]
My response isn't necessarily the same as the Orlesian leadership at the time.
#84
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:27
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 587 messages
Ah, so humanity is condemned for disregarding Shartan's contribution to the liberation of Southern Thedas but the elves get a free pass if they do the same thing?Xilizhra wrote...
Utterly irrelevant. Andraste is dead and the Dalish cannot harm her by disrespect. And the Chantry isn't Andraste's legacy, it's Drakon's.Those who don't wish to worship her are free to do so. Not allowing places of worship in their land is disrespectful to Andraste.
#85
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:40
LobselVith8
-
- Members
- 16 993 messages
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to impose your religion in people who have a different set of beliefs isn't the sharing of culture and ideas. Sending soldiers because the elves refused to convert to the human religion was the response to the elves kicking out the missionaries.[/quote]
If the Chantry sent templars, it was because the elves showed hostility to andrastians. The whole thing could have been avoided if the elves had simply showed some religious and racial tolerance. Only elves who wished to would have converted. [/quote]
Invading the homeland of the Dales because the elves refused to convert is an example of showing intolerance.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people from slavery; that doesn't mean his people need to capitulate to the Chantry.[/quote]
Because one or two chantrys in elven territory is capitulation. And here I tought it was cooperation, coexistance.
Shartan was willing to work with humans to ensure the freedom and existence of his people. The elves decided to completely isolate themselves from their allies. [/quote]
It's not cooperation when the elves want to worship the Creators, and the Chantry refuses to take 'no' for an answer.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I was thinking along the lines of being immortal and mastering the arcane.[/quote]
Assuming that is true, it still didn't stop tem from falling to Tevinter. It's time to change tactics. [/quote]
The elves believed it was true, regardless of what you and I believe. It's why they sought to reclaim what they lost, and build on that in the nation of the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm guessing the Emerald Knights simply turned people away, since the elves were losing their magic and already lost their immortality because of contact with humanity.[/quote]
The elves never lost a chance to inform us how much they hate humans and why.
And it's stupid to hold a barely defined concept of immortality that may have never existed in the first place over a lasting nation.
It's time for the elves to let go the past if they whish to have a place in Thedas. This is not Arlathan, there are other races living there now and they can't escape this fact. [/quote]
The Dalish clans have members who are wary of humans, with some who outright hate humans, and that's not surprising considering what humanity did to Tevinter and the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As opposed to the Orleisan version?[/quote]
Orlesian, Ferelden, Nevarran, Free Marcher, etc versions actually. I admit that some bias is to be expected but, at least, they show a modicrum of objectivity. The human version speaks of border conflicts, of Orlais declaring war after Red Crossing, of elves pushing into human territory.
The dalish version would have us believe this was fought entirely over the worship of the Maker. [/quote]
With the Orlesians providing the Orlesian version to the other nations; specifically, the elves starting the war with Orlais. The scholars speak about border disputes between Orlais and the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
And it's interesting how the priest of Andraste immediately condemns The Warden as a "heathen" if he admits he doesn't worship the Maker. [/quote]
Which is a fault of that priest in particular rather than the Chantry in general. For instance, Grand Cleric Elthina believed in allowing those who wished to join the Qun to do so peacefully.
The elves have never been above throwing insults the human's way. They have their brutes and their compassionates, same as humans. [/quote]
Grand Cleric Elthina seemed to have similar views to Leliana (particularly in regards to the Maker), which means her beliefs were not the norm for the Chantry.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Orlesians and the Chantry underestimated the elves, that much is certain.[/quote]
Is that a source of pride? Innocents were brutalized, murdered. [/quote]
You think the templars who invaded the Dales brutalized and murdered people?
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Regardless, I wish the Dales and the more recent Dalish and City Elves didn't seem so eager on repeating the mistakes of Arlathan. They should end these ridiculous notions of isolationism and attempt to live alongside humans.
When an elven familty buys a house outside the alienage, don't look upon them with pity. Help protect it. Have more elves join the guardsmen. It will be extremely hard but this is how elves will earn a home that can last. [/quote]
The humans who burn down the homes of the elves when they attempt to live among them? The humans who cause a riot of the City Elven Warden becomes Bann and the Denerim Alienage starts to become prosperous? The humans who did nothing while women were abducted out of the Alienage in broad daylight? The humans who purge the Alienage if the elves get uppity?
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Trying to impose your religion in people who have a different set of beliefs isn't the sharing of culture and ideas. Sending soldiers because the elves refused to convert to the human religion was the response to the elves kicking out the missionaries.[/quote]
If the Chantry sent templars, it was because the elves showed hostility to andrastians. The whole thing could have been avoided if the elves had simply showed some religious and racial tolerance. Only elves who wished to would have converted. [/quote]
Invading the homeland of the Dales because the elves refused to convert is an example of showing intolerance.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan fought alongside Andraste to free their people from slavery; that doesn't mean his people need to capitulate to the Chantry.[/quote]
Because one or two chantrys in elven territory is capitulation. And here I tought it was cooperation, coexistance.
Shartan was willing to work with humans to ensure the freedom and existence of his people. The elves decided to completely isolate themselves from their allies. [/quote]
It's not cooperation when the elves want to worship the Creators, and the Chantry refuses to take 'no' for an answer.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I was thinking along the lines of being immortal and mastering the arcane.[/quote]
Assuming that is true, it still didn't stop tem from falling to Tevinter. It's time to change tactics. [/quote]
The elves believed it was true, regardless of what you and I believe. It's why they sought to reclaim what they lost, and build on that in the nation of the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm guessing the Emerald Knights simply turned people away, since the elves were losing their magic and already lost their immortality because of contact with humanity.[/quote]
The elves never lost a chance to inform us how much they hate humans and why.
And it's stupid to hold a barely defined concept of immortality that may have never existed in the first place over a lasting nation.
It's time for the elves to let go the past if they whish to have a place in Thedas. This is not Arlathan, there are other races living there now and they can't escape this fact. [/quote]
The Dalish clans have members who are wary of humans, with some who outright hate humans, and that's not surprising considering what humanity did to Tevinter and the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
As opposed to the Orleisan version?[/quote]
Orlesian, Ferelden, Nevarran, Free Marcher, etc versions actually. I admit that some bias is to be expected but, at least, they show a modicrum of objectivity. The human version speaks of border conflicts, of Orlais declaring war after Red Crossing, of elves pushing into human territory.
The dalish version would have us believe this was fought entirely over the worship of the Maker. [/quote]
With the Orlesians providing the Orlesian version to the other nations; specifically, the elves starting the war with Orlais. The scholars speak about border disputes between Orlais and the Dales.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
And it's interesting how the priest of Andraste immediately condemns The Warden as a "heathen" if he admits he doesn't worship the Maker. [/quote]
Which is a fault of that priest in particular rather than the Chantry in general. For instance, Grand Cleric Elthina believed in allowing those who wished to join the Qun to do so peacefully.
The elves have never been above throwing insults the human's way. They have their brutes and their compassionates, same as humans. [/quote]
Grand Cleric Elthina seemed to have similar views to Leliana (particularly in regards to the Maker), which means her beliefs were not the norm for the Chantry.
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Orlesians and the Chantry underestimated the elves, that much is certain.[/quote]
Is that a source of pride? Innocents were brutalized, murdered. [/quote]
You think the templars who invaded the Dales brutalized and murdered people?
[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Regardless, I wish the Dales and the more recent Dalish and City Elves didn't seem so eager on repeating the mistakes of Arlathan. They should end these ridiculous notions of isolationism and attempt to live alongside humans.
When an elven familty buys a house outside the alienage, don't look upon them with pity. Help protect it. Have more elves join the guardsmen. It will be extremely hard but this is how elves will earn a home that can last. [/quote]
The humans who burn down the homes of the elves when they attempt to live among them? The humans who cause a riot of the City Elven Warden becomes Bann and the Denerim Alienage starts to become prosperous? The humans who did nothing while women were abducted out of the Alienage in broad daylight? The humans who purge the Alienage if the elves get uppity?
#86
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 07:57
MisterJB
-
- Members
- 15 587 messages
A bigger show of intolerance is to refuse any contact with humans even when they were trying to be friends with the elves.LobselVith8 wrote...
Invading the homeland of the Dales because the elves refused to convert is an example of showing intolerance.
If no one wanted to convert, the Chantrys would remain empty. Humans are happy, elves are happy, no one gets hurt.It's not cooperation when the elves want to worship the Creators, and the Chantry refuses to take 'no' for an answer.
It was the elves who refused to coexist with the humans in the first place.
You'd think they carefully analyze the events that lead to the fall of their previous nation and avoid them the second time around. They didn't, they actually had humans trying to befriend them and they refused.The elves believed it was true, regardless of what you and I believe. It's why they sought to reclaim what they lost, and build on that in the nation of the Dales.
It's time for the elves to realize that their policies are as much to blame for their misfortunes as the humans are.The Dalish clans have members who are wary of humans, with some who outright hate humans, and that's not surprising considering what humanity did to Tevinter and the Dales.
And quickly before they are extinct. It might be their last chance.
Human scholars show some obvjectivity and examples of common conflicts between nations whereas they could stick to the "human sacrifice" propaganda.With the Orlesians providing the Orlesian version to the other nations; specifically, the elves starting the war with Orlais. The scholars speak about border disputes between Orlais and the Dales.
Elves tell tales around the campfire.
Right, I'm going with the humans on this one.
Less so than when the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val Royeaux. You can't convert dead elves whereas elves see humans as a plague.You think the templars who invaded the Dales brutalized and murdered people?
And you believe that remaining on their squalor filled section of the city is going to bring about any lasting social changes? That staying out of sight is how elves will ever improve their lives?The humans who burn down the homes of the elves when they attempt to live among them? The humans who cause a riot of the City Elven Warden becomes Bann and the Denerim Alienage starts to become prosperous? The humans who did nothing while women were abducted out of the Alienage in broad daylight? The humans who purge the Alienage if the elves get uppity?
#87
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 08:20
Shadow Fox
-
- Members
- 4 206 messages
MisterJB don't bother to him the elves can do no wrong.
#88
Posté 26 octobre 2012 - 10:46
LobselVith8
-
- Members
- 16 993 messages
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
MisterJB don't bother to him the elves can do no wrong.
Marethari was wrong to let Audacity loose, and her clan was wrong to attempt to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood.
#89
Posté 27 octobre 2012 - 12:31
DPSSOC
-
- Members
- 3 033 messages
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arlathan had relations with Tevinter, then they were enslaved.[/quote]
After cutting off all contact with them for centuries. Any agreements they had are long since void. [/quote]
I think enslaving men, women, and children is reason enough to condemn Tevinter. The elves were losing their immortality and their magical ability; I don't think that warranted Tevinter's response.[/quote]
Ok either you're deliberately ignoring what I actually say or I'm being unclear. The Elves of Arlathan isolated themselves and it made them blind to Tevinter's progress and intent. That is a big part of why the eventually fell, had they not isolated themselves they could have A) guided Tevinter's progress or
Worked to keep them from becoming a genuine threat. Isolation bit them in the ass and that's their fault. The choice to invade, and what happened afterwards are Tevinter's.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan and Andraste fought alongside each other to overthrow the Imperium, and the Dales was the reward for the elves; it was taken away as a result of the elves' refusal to convert by the followers of Andraste (according to the history of the Dalish).[/quote]
Again after centuries of 0 contact. Do you honestly expect the human nations to hold on to goodwill for that long without reinforcement? If someone you knew, not a friend an acquaintance, that you hadn't talked to in 20 years said, "Hey remember how I helped you move 20 years ago, yeah I need you to return the favour," would you feel any level of obligation to help them? [/quote]
The elves were losing their magical ability, they lost their immorality, and they simply wanted to restore their culture and heritage in the Dales. You keep vilifying the Dales for this, while acting like the imperialistic empire that invaded them for refusing to convert is the victim here.[/quote]
I'm not villifying or victimizing anyone, I've said multiple times that Orlais was not blameless in their actions. My point has always been that neither are the Dalish. Their militant isolationism contributed to the environment of hostility that lead to the war with Orlais and ensured that when Orlais called for allies the Dalish had none. Again all of that is their fault. Who's to blame for the actual start of the war is up for argument, but regardless the Dalish did contribute. You continue to view them as peace loving flower children who never hurt a soul and did nothing to warrant Orlesian hostility and that is simply not the reality.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for conquering the Dales as a result of their refusal to convert, as it can be voiced even by the Surana Warden. I'd say the Dalish codex supports the idea that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of their refusal to convert.[/quote]
And I'd say that's how the Dalish and elves in general like to remember it. However we have a conflicting account to consider, and again the Dalish codex says NOTHING there is no detail, no time scale, nothing. Using the Dalish codex the enitre history of the Dales happened over the course of a week for all we know. [/quote]
Except the Dalish protagonist can voice the same thing: that the Dales was invaded for the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.[/quote]
Ok I'm gonna try to be clear with this again. The Elves claiming that they were invaded because of their faith doesn't make it true. Again we have a conflicting account that makes no mention of religion, and if it were a matter of religion why wouldn't the Chantry include that? What reason would they have? It's remarkably easy to add that it was a religious war without changing much of the Orlesian account.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. It's the elves living their own lives, on their own terms, and worshipping their own gods. That doesn't give humanity the right to send templars into their territory simply because the elves refused to convert to their religion.[/quote]
Ok you really need to stop holding up the Dalish account as some holy gospel. First off, and I can't stress how important this is, there is absolutely no detail in it; you're extrapolating nearly 300 years of history and a war to boot from one sentence. Second there is no corroborating evidence. Val Royeaux and Montsimard were attacked, they did fall to the Dalish, it wasn't until after these events that the other nations got involved, hell we have no indication that the Chantry got involved before that. The Dalish have no records of a first strike by the Orlesians, they have nothing to support the idea that they were invaded beyond the fact they eventually lost. [/quote]
When one account is by a group of people who want nothing to do with humanity, and the other is by an empire that has invaded other nations for centuries (and is inclined to continue doing so in the present), then I'm more inclined to trust the former over the latter.[/quote]
Except Orlais has never tried to paint their conquests as anything other than what they are, they're actually rather proud of it. They didn't try to paint Fereldan or Nevarra with themselves as the victim, or even paint themselves as not the aggressor, so why would they bother with the Dales? Accusing someone of tailoring their account to their bias only really works if it falls in line with all similar accounts, this one doesn't.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any Andrastian nation side with the elves against the seat of Andrastian faith?[/quote]
Because none of the nations Orlais conquered actually wanted to be conquered. If being the seat of the Andrastian faith were enough to get people not to fight them they would have just walked in to other nations and said, "Oh by the way, ours." [/quote]
Emperor Drakon converted the places he conquered during his reign, and the other nations became Andrastian. The same isn't true for the Dales, where the elves worshipped the Creators and refused to convert to the religion of Drakon or his successors.[/quote]
My point was Andrastian or not many nations did not like Orlais, and might have agreed to stand with the Dalish in exchange for the Dalish standing with them in the event Orlais moved against them. History is full of nations and culltures who bitterly hated one another taking sides with one another against someone they hate/fear more.
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Arlathan had relations with Tevinter, then they were enslaved.[/quote]
After cutting off all contact with them for centuries. Any agreements they had are long since void. [/quote]
I think enslaving men, women, and children is reason enough to condemn Tevinter. The elves were losing their immortality and their magical ability; I don't think that warranted Tevinter's response.[/quote]
Ok either you're deliberately ignoring what I actually say or I'm being unclear. The Elves of Arlathan isolated themselves and it made them blind to Tevinter's progress and intent. That is a big part of why the eventually fell, had they not isolated themselves they could have A) guided Tevinter's progress or
Worked to keep them from becoming a genuine threat. Isolation bit them in the ass and that's their fault. The choice to invade, and what happened afterwards are Tevinter's.[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Shartan and Andraste fought alongside each other to overthrow the Imperium, and the Dales was the reward for the elves; it was taken away as a result of the elves' refusal to convert by the followers of Andraste (according to the history of the Dalish).[/quote]
Again after centuries of 0 contact. Do you honestly expect the human nations to hold on to goodwill for that long without reinforcement? If someone you knew, not a friend an acquaintance, that you hadn't talked to in 20 years said, "Hey remember how I helped you move 20 years ago, yeah I need you to return the favour," would you feel any level of obligation to help them? [/quote]
The elves were losing their magical ability, they lost their immorality, and they simply wanted to restore their culture and heritage in the Dales. You keep vilifying the Dales for this, while acting like the imperialistic empire that invaded them for refusing to convert is the victim here.[/quote]
I'm not villifying or victimizing anyone, I've said multiple times that Orlais was not blameless in their actions. My point has always been that neither are the Dalish. Their militant isolationism contributed to the environment of hostility that lead to the war with Orlais and ensured that when Orlais called for allies the Dalish had none. Again all of that is their fault. Who's to blame for the actual start of the war is up for argument, but regardless the Dalish did contribute. You continue to view them as peace loving flower children who never hurt a soul and did nothing to warrant Orlesian hostility and that is simply not the reality.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the elven protagonist can condemn the Chantry for conquering the Dales as a result of their refusal to convert, as it can be voiced even by the Surana Warden. I'd say the Dalish codex supports the idea that templars were sent into the Dales as a consequence of their refusal to convert.[/quote]
And I'd say that's how the Dalish and elves in general like to remember it. However we have a conflicting account to consider, and again the Dalish codex says NOTHING there is no detail, no time scale, nothing. Using the Dalish codex the enitre history of the Dales happened over the course of a week for all we know. [/quote]
Except the Dalish protagonist can voice the same thing: that the Dales was invaded for the elves' refusal to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.[/quote]
Ok I'm gonna try to be clear with this again. The Elves claiming that they were invaded because of their faith doesn't make it true. Again we have a conflicting account that makes no mention of religion, and if it were a matter of religion why wouldn't the Chantry include that? What reason would they have? It's remarkably easy to add that it was a religious war without changing much of the Orlesian account.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
No, it isn't. It's the elves living their own lives, on their own terms, and worshipping their own gods. That doesn't give humanity the right to send templars into their territory simply because the elves refused to convert to their religion.[/quote]
Ok you really need to stop holding up the Dalish account as some holy gospel. First off, and I can't stress how important this is, there is absolutely no detail in it; you're extrapolating nearly 300 years of history and a war to boot from one sentence. Second there is no corroborating evidence. Val Royeaux and Montsimard were attacked, they did fall to the Dalish, it wasn't until after these events that the other nations got involved, hell we have no indication that the Chantry got involved before that. The Dalish have no records of a first strike by the Orlesians, they have nothing to support the idea that they were invaded beyond the fact they eventually lost. [/quote]
When one account is by a group of people who want nothing to do with humanity, and the other is by an empire that has invaded other nations for centuries (and is inclined to continue doing so in the present), then I'm more inclined to trust the former over the latter.[/quote]
Except Orlais has never tried to paint their conquests as anything other than what they are, they're actually rather proud of it. They didn't try to paint Fereldan or Nevarra with themselves as the victim, or even paint themselves as not the aggressor, so why would they bother with the Dales? Accusing someone of tailoring their account to their bias only really works if it falls in line with all similar accounts, this one doesn't.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]DPSSOC wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Why would any Andrastian nation side with the elves against the seat of Andrastian faith?[/quote]
Because none of the nations Orlais conquered actually wanted to be conquered. If being the seat of the Andrastian faith were enough to get people not to fight them they would have just walked in to other nations and said, "Oh by the way, ours." [/quote]
Emperor Drakon converted the places he conquered during his reign, and the other nations became Andrastian. The same isn't true for the Dales, where the elves worshipped the Creators and refused to convert to the religion of Drakon or his successors.[/quote]
My point was Andrastian or not many nations did not like Orlais, and might have agreed to stand with the Dalish in exchange for the Dalish standing with them in the event Orlais moved against them. History is full of nations and culltures who bitterly hated one another taking sides with one another against someone they hate/fear more.
#90
Posté 27 octobre 2012 - 05:19
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 988 messages
MisterJB wrote...
It was still an alliance. Shartan was willing to work with humans to ensure the freedom and survival of his people, regardless of how he personally felt about them. The elves of the Dales were not.
So says the version written by the expansionist victors, which should be taken with a grain of salt.
Another interpretation: Shartan is an elf, of course he will think humans are at fault. As the Archon's wife shows, spirits are capable of being biased.
Possible, though the Archon's wife is holding onto a lingering resentment towards Andraste, whereas Shartan's could be an otherworldly way of knowing the truth.
As we see with the Guardian, those types of spirits can see the past of people.
Which is understandable after the Dales sacked Val Royeaux and did Maker knows what to the population.
I'd be bitter too.
I think after a certain point, it just becomes an insult to the Elves. Now, many people believe that Andraste didn't topple the Imperium with Elves helping her -- by way of launching their own rebellion in Tevinter and eventually joining with her -- and are just as likely to think she sang to the Tevinters to achieve their peace.
Only a few people -- and Mages -- know that Andraste fought with the Elves and the Barbarians
The dwarves also consider themselves above humans. No two races truly get along in Thedas but the dwarves have the intelligence to see that antagonizing two of the most powerful groups of Thedas, Tevinter and the Chantry, is to court death.
They extablished a relationship of peaceful trading with both groups which ensures none has any vented interest in going to war with the dwarves which is the smart thing to do.
The dwarves allowed the opening of a chantry in order to appease the...well, Chantry and the Divine seemed content with that, showing indication of sending a few templars to Orzammar only after Andrastians were killed without provocation.
People will feel insulted about anything. The Dwarves might make a comment that while not nice, isn't insulting and a Human might take it to be an insult anyway.
It's human nature.
For all we know the antagonizing the Elves supposedly did to human missionaries was "No thank you. You see, our stories tell us that when we began interacting with humans, we lost our immortality. We'd like to isolate ourselves and get that back, so if you could we'd like no Chantries, no traders, etc.".
And then the Humans might take that as "So we're apparently a plague to these people? The gall!"
Even a nice way of saying something can be misinterpreted as an insult.
As for Brother Burkel... well... is there any proof that didn't result in anger within the Chantry, or that the epilogue wasn't completely tossed out?
I mean, in-game we see that not even Orzammar is free from the Chantry proselytizing its religion to them. But that's all we know for certain, and if the Chantry is created it does attract a few followers.
Those who don't wish to worship her are free to do so. Not allowing places of worship in their land is disrespectful to Andraste.
The problem is that, as I said, the Chantry never stops proselytizing. They keep going, and going, and going.
They're an annoying version of the Energizer bunny.
Where does it stop? When should the Elves say enough is enough? The problem with the idea that they must acquiesce to the Chantry's request is that they're already allowing the Chantry to manipulate their politics by doing so, and that you could easily say they must have a Chantry in every settlement. And that if they said no after one, they're not doing enough.
The Chantry calls anyone who worships a religion other then the Maker "heathens". And IIRC, the Chant does as well.
They were free to do what they want regarding their own religion. I don't see why they should let the Chantry establish a presence in there, when historically Orlais and the Chantry have been expansionistic -- Drakon even said that he would not rest until the Chant was spread to the entire world, and wanted his wife to do it with him.
For an isolationist nation, they sure seemed eager to push into human lands. And all of this over the Chantry, supposedly, sending templars?
Either the elves overreacted or a few of them were quite eager to kill every human in sight.
I have, in the past, suggested that fringe elements of the Dalish -- or just Elves in general -- may have had a part in the Red Crossing incident.
So I wouldn't be surprised if that happened.
I also wouldn't be surprised if some non-Dalish Elves were hired by Orlais to impersonate the Dalish, attack Red Crossing, and give Orlais pretense to invade.
There are a few theories that could explain the fall of the Dales which was spurred on by Red Crossing. It never happened, fringe elements, Orlesian political ploy to give them pretense to invade, the Chantry may have in fact invaded the Dales, etc.
MisterJB wrote...
Less so than when the elves invaded Orlais and sacked Val Royeaux. You can't convert dead elves whereas elves see humans as a plague
I doubt the Elves killed women and children. Or at least, didn't actively support such a thing -- though some probably did during the war. War's always going to have its douchebags.
Certainly, after the Fall of the Dales they didn't kill the baby Aveline. They raised her with them and taught her how to fight and told her to show Orlais that women can be awesome just as much as men can.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 octobre 2012 - 05:26 .
