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[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

Control "gives you control of the reapers" by having a human reaper assimilate Shepard.  By choosing this option, you become the commander in chief of the first human reaper and procede to lead their forces in the next cycle.  Sounds pretty unlikely, yes.  But it sounds MORE likely than the anti-organic AI just giving you the keys.  And there's actually some groundwork laid for it, slim though it be.

I get that people are desperate, but from your Shep's point of view...there are DEFINITELY ways in which accepting the AI's options can make things worse.

P.S. That actually was a possiblity I considered when I first saw control.

"Control "gives you control of the reapers" by having a human reaper assimilate Shepard.  By choosing this option, you become the commander in chief of the first human reaper and procede to lead their forces in the next cycle. "

No, you do control the reaper but you do with them want you want. Nothign say you use them for ill or have to use them at all. You can let organics rule themselves.

And your character knows this how?  Because the AI whose mission it is to harvest organics told you really really nicely?

Yes, you do understand that we have to take what the catalyst is saying a varibale right?

I...don't think that sentence means what you want it to mean.  I think what you're trying to say  is we have to trust what the AI says.  Why?  We don't even know if it is the Catalyst, could be making that all up.  What we DO know is that it's probably the largest mass murderer in the history of history, loves manipulating people, and has made its purpose to eliminate/harvest all organic life.  Not exactly who I want as my main advisor.  If you were on a bomb squad and choosing which wire to cut, would you REALLY want the leader of the insurgents telling you which wire does what?

Here are some alternate scenarios for how things could have gone very very wrong.

1) Destroy:
The crucible is powering up, getting ready to work and save the galaxy or whatever.  The AI, by directing you to shoot some pipes, is having you sabotage that process--work it can't do itself without a physical body.  By shooting the pipes, you stop the crucible and doom humanity.

2) Control:
The Reapers (under this guy's orders) have been trying to get your body for YEARS.  What did you think they wanted it for?  By allowing them to disintigrate you into their tech (ME2, sound familiar?), you'll be incorporated into a human Reaper as the brain or a major component.  You've seen signs of the harvesting for it as you walked up, what did you think all the corpses were for?  Your vision thingie (not even getting into that) says the Illusive Man wanted that option but couldn't 'cause he was tainted by reaper tech.  How many Husks/Reaper tech victims did you see getting fed to the Human Reaper?

3)Synth:
I don't have to explain how many ways this could go wrong.  If the AI is manipulating you towards this choice, you might turn every human in the galaxy into a husk.  Could be even worse.

Sure, that's not what actually happens.  You know that.  I, the player, know that.  We've seen the cutscenes.  My Shep just knows that the leader of the Reapers, a master manipulator playing on his sympathies, is steering him towards these options...and that can't be good.

P.S. I've taken the options before.  Different Shepards, different motivations, different levels of suspicion and definitions of victory.
P.P.S. The "kid" could really be Harbinger playing a hilarious prank on you for all you know.   The thing doesn't exactly wave its driver's license, complete with "catalyst" stamp.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Sure, that's not what actually happens. You know that. I, the player, know that. We've seen the cutscenes. My Shep just knows that the leader of the Reapers, a master manipulator playing on his sympathies, is steering him towards these options...and that can't be good.

Well, it's entirely willing to just let you die if you want to. Don't worry.

[Noelemahc]

Xilizhra wrote...

Do you maybe think the two bolded statements are interdependent in your case? Therein lies the point of differing viewpoints.

Well, true. I don't really have a problem with your viewpoint, but I do have a problem with people assuming that I'm deluded/evil.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying you're deluded. I'm less about convincing people their favourite interpretation sucks and more about trying to get them to accept that mine has about as much right to exist as theirs; especially  considering the messed-up and contradictory state the canon is in right now, when half the information we have to use to interpret the endings is Twitter-zoned.

I just find it offensive that ME1 and 2 gradually built up a plot of us devising ways to slaughter Reapers, and then they ALL get nerfed and/or retconned away in favour of a Deus Ex Machina that spawns an ACTUAL deus ex machina when activated. That's like, the ultimate demonstration of writing impotency.

ME1 and 2 and 3, up until midway through Rannoch, are all about subverting cliches, turning them on their heads.

The moment the Rannoch Reaper dies, you are suddenly knee-deep in all of these cliches being played straight, as if the previous inventive and subversive writing has run out of fuel. It still sputters along (like Vendetta implying the Reapers may have tampered with the Crucible's designs), but then dies entirely the moment Shepard does not have ANY option to follow up on the idea and proceeds to lead everyone in a stupendously dumbly orchestrated frontal charge after stupendously dumbly orchestrated frontal charge which results in most of his ground forces dying offscreen (itself a crime against the gods of writing and cinematography). It felt like watching a brilliant and intelligent man waste away to a brain disease.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

For what it's worth, I'm not saying you're deluded. I'm less about convincing people their favourite interpretation sucks and more about trying to get them to accept that mine has about as much right to exist as theirs; especially considering the messed-up and contradictory state the canon is in right now, when half the information we have to use to interpret the endings is Twitter-zoned.

Well, obviously yours has a right to exist. I'm not disputing that.

I just find it offensive that ME1 and 2 gradually built up a plot of us devising ways to slaughter Reapers, and then they ALL get nerfed and/or retconned away in favour of a Deus Ex Machina that spawns an ACTUAL deus ex machina when activated. That's like, the ultimate demonstration of writing impotency.

I heard of Thanix cannons being used in canon every so often, in addition to Thanix missiles. They weren't cut, but just because they blew through a Black Ark in ME2 doesn't mean they'd be a Reaper panacea. They were only really useful for improving cruiser/frigate firepower anyway.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

Control "gives you control of the reapers" by having a human reaper assimilate Shepard.  By choosing this option, you become the commander in chief of the first human reaper and procede to lead their forces in the next cycle.  Sounds pretty unlikely, yes.  But it sounds MORE likely than the anti-organic AI just giving you the keys.  And there's actually some groundwork laid for it, slim though it be.

I get that people are desperate, but from your Shep's point of view...there are DEFINITELY ways in which accepting the AI's options can make things worse.

P.S. That actually was a possiblity I considered when I first saw control.

"Control "gives you control of the reapers" by having a human reaper assimilate Shepard.  By choosing this option, you become the commander in chief of the first human reaper and procede to lead their forces in the next cycle. "

No, you do control the reaper but you do with them want you want. Nothign say you use them for ill or have to use them at all. You can let organics rule themselves.

And your character knows this how?  Because the AI whose mission it is to harvest organics told you really really nicely?

Yes, you do understand that we have to take what the catalyst is saying a varibale right?

I...don't think that sentence means what you want it to mean.  I think what you're trying to say  is we have to trust what the AI says.  Why?  We don't even know if it is the Catalyst, could be making that all up.  What we DO know is that it's probably the largest mass murderer in the history of history, loves manipulating people, and has made its purpose to eliminate/harvest all organic life.  Not exactly who I want as my main advisor.  If you were on a bomb squad and choosing which wire to cut, would you REALLY want the leader of the insurgents telling you which wire does what?

Here are some alternate scenarios for how things could have gone very very wrong.

1) Destroy:
The crucible is powering up, getting ready to work and save the galaxy or whatever.  The AI, by directing you to shoot some pipes, is having you sabotage that process--work it can't do itself without a physical body.  By shooting the pipes, you stop the crucible and doom humanity.

2) Control:
The Reapers (under this guy's orders) have been trying to get your body for YEARS.  What did you think they wanted it for?  By allowing them to disintigrate you into their tech (ME2, sound familiar?), you'll be incorporated into a human Reaper as the brain or a major component.  You've seen signs of the harvesting for it as you walked up, what did you think all the corpses were for?

3)Synth:
I don't have to explain how many ways this could go wrong.  If the AI is manipulating you towards this choice, you might turn every human in the galaxy into a husk.  Could be even worse.

Sure, that's not what actually happens.  You know that.  I, the player, know that.  We've seen the cutscenes.  My Shep just knows that the leader of the Reapers, a master manipulator playing on his sympathies, is steering him towards these options...and that can't be good.

No, vairiable as a caluclaition. I'm not saying blindly trust it. lf you do you're going to jump into the beam. I'm saying to take what the catalyst says  as something  that can have weight to you desision, even if you feel he may be lieing. Why? Becasue he also can be telling you the truth. At best  you can see what he says as a truth, what he beleives to be right. But just because it's a truth doesnot mean it's the truth.

We already know refuse mean we lose, we have to calulate the best option based off the info on hand.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[Apocaleepse360]

...This again? It's their choice, for ****'s sake.

[Noelemahc]

Xilizhra wrote...

I heard of Thanix cannons being used in canon every so often, in addition to Thanix missiles. They weren't cut, but just because they blew through a Black Ark in ME2 doesn't mean they'd be a Reaper panacea. They were only really useful for improving cruiser/frigate firepower anyway.

They were cut. The Missiles were added for some reason (which violates the firing principle of the Cannons, it's not something you can pack into a projectile) to "replace" them. You never see a Thanix Cannon fired on-screen in the game. FFS, would it have been so hard to show it being used on Reapers and failing because they are ancient devious Machine Gods that can change the frequency of their shields? Good writing is about sealing the plot holes before they are found. ME1 stood up to such scrutiny really well. ME3... not so much.

[Noelemahc]

Apocaleepse360 wrote...

...This again? It's their choice, for ****'s sake.

I think that seals the deal.
[/thread]

[Xilizhra]

Noelemahc wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I heard of Thanix cannons being used in canon every so often, in addition to Thanix missiles. They weren't cut, but just because they blew through a Black Ark in ME2 doesn't mean they'd be a Reaper panacea. They were only really useful for improving cruiser/frigate firepower anyway.

They were cut. The Missiles were added for some reason (which violates the firing principle of the Cannons, it's not something you can pack into a projectile) to "replace" them. You never see a Thanix Cannon fired on-screen in the game. FFS, would it have been so hard to show it being used on Reapers and failing because they are ancient devious Machine Gods that can change the frequency of their shields? Good writing is about sealing the plot holes before they are found. ME1 stood up to such scrutiny really well. ME3... not so much.

Well, I won't argue that point, or say that a conventional victory would have been bad. I'll just I can live with this one.

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

I...don't think that sentence means what you want it to mean.  I think what you're trying to say  is we have to trust what the AI says.  Why?  We don't even know if it is the Catalyst, could be making that all up.  What we DO know is that it's probably the largest mass murderer in the history of history, loves manipulating people, and has made its purpose to eliminate/harvest all organic life.  Not exactly who I want as my main advisor.  If you were on a bomb squad and choosing which wire to cut, would you REALLY want the leader of the insurgents telling you which wire does what?

Here are some alternate scenarios for how things could have gone very very wrong.

1) Destroy:
The crucible is powering up, getting ready to work and save the galaxy or whatever.  The AI, by directing you to shoot some pipes, is having you sabotage that process--work it can't do itself without a physical body.  By shooting the pipes, you stop the crucible and doom humanity.

2) Control:
The Reapers (under this guy's orders) have been trying to get your body for YEARS.  What did you think they wanted it for?  By allowing them to disintigrate you into their tech (ME2, sound familiar?), you'll be incorporated into a human Reaper as the brain or a major component.  You've seen signs of the harvesting for it as you walked up, what did you think all the corpses were for?

3)Synth:
I don't have to explain how many ways this could go wrong.  If the AI is manipulating you towards this choice, you might turn every human in the galaxy into a husk.  Could be even worse.

Sure, that's not what actually happens.  You know that.  I, the player, know that.  We've seen the cutscenes.  My Shep just knows that the leader of the Reapers, a master manipulator playing on his sympathies, is steering him towards these options...and that can't be good.

dreman9999 wrote...No, vairiable as a caluclaition. I'm not saying blindly trust it. lf you do you're going to jump into the beam. I'm saying to take what the catalyst says  as something  that can have weight to you desision, even if you feel he may be lieing. Why? Becasue he also can be telling you the truth. At best  you can see what he says as a truth, what he beleives to be right. But just because it's a truth doesnot mean it's the truth.

We already know refuse mean we lose, we have to calulate the best option based off the info on hand.

Ahhhhhh, wasn't sure what you were writing there.  Okay, makes more sense.  Well...based on the information available, my Shep thought his--and all of organic life's--chances were much better not taking the poison pills.  We have no way of knowing the Crucible isn't actually working--again, other than the word of the enemy leader.  And my Shep judged that the advice from said enemy leader could be even more damaging than (probably) losing the war.

It wasn't the only right decision.  There are MANY right decisions.  Taking the choices, depending on what kind of character you're playing and what your goal is, can be the right decision.  But to argue that "REFUSE = SURRENDER" or "REFUSE = SELFISHLY DOOM ALL OF HUMANITY" is a drastic oversimplification.  And also wrong.  Maybe if YOUR Shepard had taken that option there, it would've meant surrender.  But that was not what mine was doing.

Think about it, though.  What if the whole purpose of that conversation was to stall you so it (the AI) could work on preventing the fully functional crucible from kicking in?  There are so many reasons someone could go with refuse.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

I...don't think that sentence means what you want it to mean.  I think what you're trying to say  is we have to trust what the AI says.  Why?  We don't even know if it is the Catalyst, could be making that all up.  What we DO know is that it's probably the largest mass murderer in the history of history, loves manipulating people, and has made its purpose to eliminate/harvest all organic life.  Not exactly who I want as my main advisor.  If you were on a bomb squad and choosing which wire to cut, would you REALLY want the leader of the insurgents telling you which wire does what?

Here are some alternate scenarios for how things could have gone very very wrong.

1) Destroy:
The crucible is powering up, getting ready to work and save the galaxy or whatever.  The AI, by directing you to shoot some pipes, is having you sabotage that process--work it can't do itself without a physical body.  By shooting the pipes, you stop the crucible and doom humanity.

2) Control:
The Reapers (under this guy's orders) have been trying to get your body for YEARS.  What did you think they wanted it for?  By allowing them to disintigrate you into their tech (ME2, sound familiar?), you'll be incorporated into a human Reaper as the brain or a major component.  You've seen signs of the harvesting for it as you walked up, what did you think all the corpses were for?

3)Synth:
I don't have to explain how many ways this could go wrong.  If the AI is manipulating you towards this choice, you might turn every human in the galaxy into a husk.  Could be even worse.

Sure, that's not what actually happens.  You know that.  I, the player, know that.  We've seen the cutscenes.  My Shep just knows that the leader of the Reapers, a master manipulator playing on his sympathies, is steering him towards these options...and that can't be good.

dreman9999 wrote...No, vairiable as a caluclaition. I'm not saying blindly trust it. lf you do you're going to jump into the beam. I'm saying to take what the catalyst says  as something  that can have weight to you desision, even if you feel he may be lieing. Why? Becasue he also can be telling you the truth. At best  you can see what he says as a truth, what he beleives to be right. But just because it's a truth doesnot mean it's the truth.

We already know refuse mean we lose, we have to calulate the best option based off the info on hand.

Ahhhhhh, wasn't sure what you were writing there.  Okay, makes more sense.  Well...based on the information available, my Shep thought his--and all of organic life's--chances were much better not taking the poison pills.  We have no way of knowing the Crucible isn't actually working--again, other than the word of the enemy leader.  And my Shep judged that the advice from said enemy leader could be even more damaging than (probably) losing the war.

It wasn't the only right decision.  There are MANY right decisions.  Taking the choices, depending on what kind of character you're playing and what your goal is, can be the right decision.  But to argue that "REFUSE = SURRENDER" or "REFUSE = SELFISHLY DOOM ALL OF HUMANITY" is a drastic oversimplification.  And also wrong.  Maybe if YOUR Shepard had taken that option there, it would've meant surrender.  But that was not what mine was doing.

But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

You don't see that as illogical?

[Davik Kang]

DrGunjah wrote...
...And yes, we always assume the crucible will destroy them. But do we really know it? IIRC when finding the plans you tell the council "we think it can destroy them", later hackett tells you something like "it seems like it has enough energy to destroy the reapers, but we still have to find out how to release that energy". And that is even before we reach the catalyst to notice they have obviously prepared for a scenario where the crucible gets attached. Unless I'm missing something (which is possible) nobody except for holokid really states "yes, if you push this button, you will destroy us"

...
Well, basically, we keep fighting and probably lose. Maybe this is what happens but is not shown. It's frustrating because shepard does nothing, he doesn't try to radio hackett or EDI or whatever. It indeed looks like giving up. But well, isn't it ironic? shepard makes that speech about doing everything he could and then gives up. Seems legit...
Honestly, I think none of the endings had the presentation they deserved, so what are my options now? alt + f4 ? None of the endings really makes sense or makes me feel good unless I ignore all the flaws in their logic.

Oh and everyone has the right to play the game the way he wants. My approach is roleplaying so I don't make the final choice depending on my knowledge as the player. Honestly, I don't get the whole point of choices when metagaming.

We don't know that the Crucible will destroy them.  But it's the premise of the whole game.  We are led to believe by all the scientists, builders and developers of the Crucible project that it can stop the Reapers.  If we didn't believe that, why did we commit so many resources to it?

The premise of the while of ME3 is: the Reapers have come.  Armageddon is here.  We are doomed.  BUT, we've found these plans for a giant spacegun.  Looks like it can kill the Reapers.  Shall we build it?  We don't have any other plan.  So let's give it a shot.  

We can't win by just defending ourselves.  The codex entries show how even major planets like Earth and Thessia fall too easily.  Remember the Galaxy at War map?  Even if you max out your EMS, it still says "chances of success are even".  So even with most of the galaxy's strength united against the Reapers, and with a giant spacegun, we only have 50% chance of winning.  The whole point of bringing the armies together was so that we could use the giant spacegun.

The point is, we get to the end, and then the Kid says, ah but this might happen... or this."  But there is no other choice!  Who cares what he says?  The whole game was about building the giant spacegun!  To trun away from it based on a conversation with the Big Bad Boss... I don't see how this is an alternative.

To me the ending makes a lot of sense and I like it.  For many plyers, this is not the case, and fair enough; I've learnt the hard way not to try to change people's minds on this.  And about RPing the character, I agree.  Metagaming ruins the experience.  If you metagame, then none of your choices really matter.  Personally I think ME was designed with a single playthorugh in mind, a single story about survival and hope or whatever you want it to be about.  And in this case your choices really do matter.  But anyway this is getting away from the topic.

[DrGunjah]

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

[dreman9999]

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

2.There worse things then being force into a new form and being enslave by a machine  to havest others and have no will for the rest of your exsistance?

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

2.There worse things then being force into a new form and being enslave by a machine  to havest others and have no will for the rest of your exsistance?

1) I didn't realize it was omniscient.

2) Yes, there are.  Such as voluntarily going into a new form and helping to enslave others.  Or doing that without causing any damage to enemy forces.  Reapers are finite--look at the resources it takes to make a BIG one.  If each cycle can even take out 1 more Reaper than their cycle adds, then the Reapers will eventually lose.  Not to mention collateral damage possible.

[DrGunjah]

Davik Kang wrote...
...
To me the ending makes a lot of sense and I like it.  For many plyers, this is not the case, and fair enough; I've learnt the hard way not to try to change people's minds on this.  And about RPing the character, I agree.  Metagaming ruins the experience.  If you metagame, then none of your choices really matter.  Personally I think ME was designed with a single playthorugh in mind, a single story about survival and hope or whatever you want it to be about.  And in this case your choices really do matter.  But anyway this is getting away from the topic.

I wrote this because people here (not implicitly you) tend to mix roleplaying and metagaming perspective and pick from each whatever supports their arguments.

From my perspective, if I choose refuse it's likely our cycle gets harvested. But if I use the crucible and it fails or the catalyst lied to me about what's happening our fate can be much worse. And chances are good I also doom every lifeform that wasn't even supposed to be harvested.
Yes, the main goal is to build and use the crucible. But we also never thought we would have to make a deal with the reaper boss for it.
I can't help, but every time I watch the ending this comes to my mind:

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

2.There worse things then being force into a new form and being enslave by a machine  to havest others and have no will for the rest of your exsistance?

1) I didn't realize it was omniscient.

2) Yes, there are.  Such as voluntarily going into a new form and helping to enslave others.  Or doing that without causing any damage to enemy forces.  Reapers are finite--look at the resources it takes to make a BIG one.  If each cycle can even take out 1 more Reaper than their cycle adds, then the Reapers will eventually lose.  Not to mention collateral damage possible.

1. Ithas nothing to do with being omniscient. It's connected to it an knows how it works.
2. That's up to perspective. Added, just don't pick Synthesis. Control and destroy don't have those issues.
Added, the only reapers the reaper could lose in the this cycle is becaus eof the sacrifices of the last ...to do sabatage.  Not by widdling down their numbers.

[DrGunjah]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

Because he says so? Oh my... sorry dude but discussion with you is just pointless.
You constantly make assumptions that magically turn into facts, how can one argue against that?

[Davik Kang]

DrGunjah wrote...
From my perspective, if I choose refuse it's likely our cycle gets harvested. But if I use the crucible and it fails or the catalyst lied to me about what's happening our fate can be much worse. And chances are good I also doom every lifeform that wasn't even supposed to be harvested. 

Ok well I see where you're coming from.  However, the two claims you make here (quoted above) I don't really get.  How can our fate be worse than Reaper harvesting and death?  Why are chances "good" that all lifeforms are doomed?  You can suppose it but absolutely nothing in the game suggests it.  Not even the Reapers wanted to simultaneuosly extinguish all life (advanced and primitive) in the galaxy.

I don't really want to prolong the argument though.  We at least understand eachother.

[dreman9999]

DrGunjah wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...
...
To me the ending makes a lot of sense and I like it.  For many plyers, this is not the case, and fair enough; I've learnt the hard way not to try to change people's minds on this.  And about RPing the character, I agree.  Metagaming ruins the experience.  If you metagame, then none of your choices really matter.  Personally I think ME was designed with a single playthorugh in mind, a single story about survival and hope or whatever you want it to be about.  And in this case your choices really do matter.  But anyway this is getting away from the topic.

I wrote this because people here (not implicitly you) tend to mix roleplaying and metagaming perspective and pick from each whatever supports their arguments.

From my perspective, if I choose refuse it's likely our cycle gets harvested. But if I use the crucible and it fails or the catalyst lied to me about what's happening our fate can be much worse. And chances are good I also doom every lifeform that wasn't even supposed to be harvested.
Yes, the main goal is to build and use the crucible. But we also never thought we would have to make a deal with the reaper boss for it.
I can't help, but every time I watch the ending this comes to my mind:

Wait, how is it much worse?  If you think being harvested is worse then be harvested, I don't think you would have a point. So you decide to not try because trying has a chance of failing? 

BS, if you running from a land slide and the only way to save yourself it to jump an on coming cliff and try to grab the wall on the other side ...You not going to jump becasue you may miss?

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[hukbum]

@dreman9999:
Ok, I ask one last time. What the hell makes you think that Shep has free will, if you know that the catalyst has no free will?

Really, all Casper says is that you can "cease control of the Reapers" ... and something funny: "You will loose everything you have." Not Sheps life, this is already excluded, but everything else. Including "free will"?
What did it mean with "everything"?
Friends? Shep's going to get grilled
The ship-model-collection?

And - again - at no point it says something like "you can do whatever you want".

Did you never asked yourself what this "You will loose everything you have." could be?

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

2.There worse things then being force into a new form and being enslave by a machine  to havest others and have no will for the rest of your exsistance?

1) I didn't realize it was omniscient.

2) Yes, there are.  Such as voluntarily going into a new form and helping to enslave others.  Or doing that without causing any damage to enemy forces.  Reapers are finite--look at the resources it takes to make a BIG one.  If each cycle can even take out 1 more Reaper than their cycle adds, then the Reapers will eventually lose.  Not to mention collateral damage possible.

1. Ithas nothing to do with being omniscient. It's connected to it an knows how it works.
2. That's up to perspective. Added, just don't pick Synthesis. Control and destroy don't have those issues.
Added, the only reapers the reaper could lose in the this cycle is becaus eof the sacrifices of the last ...to do sabatage.  Not by widdling down their numbers.

1) That is omniscience, magically knowing everything will work out okay.  I don't even know if my car will start every morning and my car definitely isn't a super-experimental prototype that's never been used before.

2) And how does Shepard know that Synthesis is the only one with those issues, leaving Control and Destroy clean?  I remind you, Commander Shepard didn't look up all the endings on youtube to figure out the best one.  He/she was busy bleeding all over the Citadel floor.  Again, out-of-game knowledge.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Applepie_Svk]

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

Because he says so? Oh my... sorry dude but discussion with you is just pointless.
You constantly make assumptions that magically turn into facts, how can one argue against that?

godly thoughts ...how dare you to questions them?!?!

[dreman9999]

hukbum wrote...

@dreman9999:
Ok, I ask one last time. What the hell makes you think that Shep has free will, if you know that the catalyst has no free will?

Really, all Casper says is that you can "cease control of the Reapers" ... and something funny: "You will loose everything you have." Not Sheps life, this is already excluded, but everything else. Including "free will"?
What did it mean with "everything"?
Friends? Shep's going to get grilled
The ship-model-collection?

And - again - at no point it says something like "you can do whatever you want".

Did you never asked yourself what this "You will loose everything you have." could be?

It going into detail of what I will lose in ec....http://www.youtube.c...iSCRv6EM#t=538s

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

hukbum wrote...

@dreman9999:
Ok, I ask one last time. What the hell makes you think that Shep has free will, if you know that the catalyst has no free will?

Really, all Casper says is that you can "cease control of the Reapers" ... and something funny: "You will loose everything you have." Not Sheps life, this is already excluded, but everything else. Including "free will"?
What did it mean with "everything"?
Friends? Shep's going to get grilled
The ship-model-collection?

And - again - at no point it says something like "you can do whatever you want".

Did you never asked yourself what this "You will loose everything you have." could be?

It going into detail of what I will lose in ec....http://www.youtube.c...iSCRv6EM#t=538s

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.