435 réponses à ce sujet

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

hukbum wrote...

@dreman9999:
Ok, I ask one last time. What the hell makes you think that Shep has free will, if you know that the catalyst has no free will?

Really, all Casper says is that you can "cease control of the Reapers" ... and something funny: "You will loose everything you have." Not Sheps life, this is already excluded, but everything else. Including "free will"?
What did it mean with "everything"?
Friends? Shep's going to get grilled
The ship-model-collection?

And - again - at no point it says something like "you can do whatever you want".

Did you never asked yourself what this "You will loose everything you have." could be?

It going into detail of what I will lose in ec....http://www.youtube.c...iSCRv6EM#t=538s

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
But refuse does equal losing. You issuse inteh choices is that you think the catalyst is lieing and is leading you to pick an option to benifit it to be able to harvenst. The problem is with your choice is that in trying to avode being horvested....you pick the one choie you know you would get harvested in.

There are so many scenarios that are worse than your cycle getting harvested. As long as you can not accept this statement this discussion leads to nowhere.
Btw, let's assume the catalyst doesn't lie. But what if he just fails? No one in history has ever used the crucible. How many devices you know worked without trial and error? Not even a ****ing toaster leaves manufactory without being tested.

1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

2.There worse things then being force into a new form and being enslave by a machine  to havest others and have no will for the rest of your exsistance?

1) I didn't realize it was omniscient.

2) Yes, there are.  Such as voluntarily going into a new form and helping to enslave others.  Or doing that without causing any damage to enemy forces.  Reapers are finite--look at the resources it takes to make a BIG one.  If each cycle can even take out 1 more Reaper than their cycle adds, then the Reapers will eventually lose.  Not to mention collateral damage possible.

1. Ithas nothing to do with being omniscient. It's connected to it an knows how it works.
2. That's up to perspective. Added, just don't pick Synthesis. Control and destroy don't have those issues.
Added, the only reapers the reaper could lose in the this cycle is becaus eof the sacrifices of the last ...to do sabatage.  Not by widdling down their numbers.

1) That is omniscience, magically knowing everything will work out okay.  I don't even know if my car will start every morning and my car definitely isn't a super-experimental prototype that's never been used before.

2) And how does Shepard know that Synthesis is the only one with those issues, leaving Control and Destroy clean?  I remind you, Commander Shepard didn't look up all the endings on youtube to figure out the best one.  He/she was busy bleeding all over the Citadel floor.  Again, out-of-game knowledge.

1. No it not. It connected directly to it can got ever detail of how the crucible would by being connected. That call reading the hardware specs. EDI would beable to do this if she has as much knowlwge of the catalyst. 

2.The catalyst bluntly tells you what it wants , what it is, and what it thinks is the best choice. It also bluntly tell you it's not ok ok with control but do it anyway because it's forced to.

You have to understand that what the catalyst is saying must be looked as a truth as equal as it maybe a lie.

[DrGunjah]

Davik Kang wrote...
Ok well I see where you're coming from.  However, the two claims you make here (quoted above) I don't really get.  How can our fate be worse than Reaper harvesting and death?  Why are chances "good" that all lifeforms are doomed?  You can suppose it but absolutely nothing in the game suggests it.  Not even the Reapers wanted to simultaneuosly extinguish all life (advanced and primitive) in the galaxy.

I don't really want to prolong the argument though.  We at least understand eachother.

That "chances are good" was based on "if the crucible fails..." because from what the catalyst says when explaining synthesis under certain circumstances it has impact on all organic life.
If you need an example of the crucible failing, watch low EMS destroy.
Another example is synthesis, which is worse than death, imho. That is only what bioware came up with. I'm sure when I make a thread about it there will be tons of creative ideas what could go wrong with our new shiny superweapon.

[Shinnyshin]

Edit: Oooh, I can reply here instead.

"1. No it not. It connected directly to it can got ever detail of how the crucible would by being connected. That call reading the hardware specs. EDI would beable to do this if she has as much knowlwge of the catalyst.

2.The catalyst bluntly tells you what it wants , what it is, and what it thinks is the best choice. It also bluntly tell you it's not ok ok with control but do it anyway because it's forced to. You have to understand that what the catalyst is saying must be looked as a truth as equal as it maybe a lie.

1) The catalyst can tell you it SHOULD work.  Not that it will work.  Stuff.  Can.  Go.  Wrong.

2) And why must it be equally truth?  Hell, if it's speaking half-truths then that means it's speaking half-falsehoods, meaning you get a net total of 0 truth.  I take it you managed to ask its creators and they replied that they programmed it to speak with exactly 50% truth?  I'm afraid I didn't major in homocidal-manipulative-mastermind AI behavior.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Holy **** ****.

[AlanC9]

Shinnyshin wrote...

1) Destroy:
The crucible is powering up, getting ready to work and save the galaxy or whatever.  The AI, by directing you to shoot some pipes, is having you sabotage that process--work it can't do itself without a physical body.  By shooting the pipes, you stop the crucible and doom humanity.

Well, Shepard can just stand there and wait if he wants to. Post-EC I'm not sure if the Reapers actually destroy the Crucible or not.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

hukbum wrote...

@dreman9999:
Ok, I ask one last time. What the hell makes you think that Shep has free will, if you know that the catalyst has no free will?

Really, all Casper says is that you can "cease control of the Reapers" ... and something funny: "You will loose everything you have." Not Sheps life, this is already excluded, but everything else. Including "free will"?
What did it mean with "everything"?
Friends? Shep's going to get grilled
The ship-model-collection?

And - again - at no point it says something like "you can do whatever you want".

Did you never asked yourself what this "You will loose everything you have." could be?

It going into detail of what I will lose in ec....http://www.youtube.c...iSCRv6EM#t=538s

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.

Shepard: So the illusime man was right after all.
Catalyst:Yes, but he could never control us because we already controled him.


The catalyst pretty much said you need free will or  not be controled to control them.

[DrGunjah]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The catalyst tell you it will work flat on. There is no issue with it failing.

Because he says so? Oh my... sorry dude but discussion with you is just pointless.
You constantly make assumptions that magically turn into facts, how can one argue against that?

godly thoughts ...how dare you to questions them?!?!

now speak in the voice of harbinger!

Modifié par DrGunjah, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:26 .

[AlanC9]

Shinnyshin wrote...

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.

If my thoughts are preserved, my will's whatever it was before, isn't it?

[hukbum]

dreman9999 wrote...

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

Or, Reaperforce, controlled by this AI ... ?

Ok, you don't want to see it. You sucessfully refused to understand a diffrent point of view.

Like some people before said allready: This is going nowhere.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

Edit: Oooh, I can reply here instead.

"1. No it not. It connected directly to it can got ever detail of how the crucible would by being connected. That call reading the hardware specs. EDI would beable to do this if she has as much knowlwge of the catalyst.

2.The catalyst bluntly tells you what it wants , what it is, and what it thinks is the best choice. It also bluntly tell you it's not ok ok with control but do it anyway because it's forced to. You have to understand that what the catalyst is saying must be looked as a truth as equal as it maybe a lie.

1) The catalyst can tell you it SHOULD work.  Not that it will work.  Stuff.  Can.  Go.  Wrong.

2) And why must it be equally truth?  Hell, if it's speaking half-truths then that means it's speaking half-falsehoods, meaning you get a net total of 0 truth.  I take it you managed to ask its creators and they replied that they programmed it to speak with exactly 50% truth?

1. It's directly conneted...It will tell you. Heck, it even tells you at low ems that it will blow up everything.

2.Why? because we have nothing to say it's lieing or missleading you. It's inheritly A 50/50 chance it's lieing or telling the truth.

[Shinnyshin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.

If my thoughts are preserved, my will's whatever it was before, isn't it?

Could be.  But could also not be.  That's all interpretive.  They never say what FORM your thoughts and memories will continue in.  They're preserved, sure.  But preserved for use against organics, perhaps?  It's not clear.  There's room for some good, sure.  But a lot of bad.

The "your connection to your kind will be lost", similarly, could just mean you don't have a physical body to snuggle with.  OR it could have  more nefarious meaning--especially coupled with the next sentence, meaning you lose all humanity and sympathy for organics, which sounds like a Reaper job description.

Edit: Yeah, as an earlier poster pointed out, this is pointless.  Either we're engaging with someone who's not honestly engaging back (troll) or who's not capable of it.  And it lost its fun as a late-night brain-stretch about an hour ago.  Later and good luck to anyone who stays.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:27 .

[dreman9999]

hukbum wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Note how the catalyst goes out of it way to tell you why TIM could not control the reapers and why you can. Awnser....Freewill.

Or, Reaperforce, controlled by this AI ... ?

Ok, you don't want to see it. You sucessfully refused to understand a diffrent point of view.

Like some people before said allready: This is going nowhere.

I sorry, but the only gound you have is that it's lying or trying to trick us with no proof of that.

With it litteraly explain to you why you can control the reapers...http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6AIiSCRv6EM#t=538s

I'm sorry but you have no ground to it lying as much as anyone saying it's telling the truth

[Applepie_Svk]

Just what makes you think that somewhen in future Organics and Synthetics once again don´t try to unite against Reapers as payoff for their crimes, or someone create even stronger synthetics than Reapers ... and Reapers with Shepalist went fully retard restart their programming and start with best solutions THE HARVESTS again ?

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Shinnyshin wrote...

"Your corporeal form will be dissolved, but your thoughts--and even your memories--will continue.  You will no longer be organic.  Your connection to your kind will be lost, though you will remain aware of their existance."

I see nothing there about free will.  Or any preservation of humanity.  Hell, that looks like a sales pitch to become a bad guy.

If my thoughts are preserved, my will's whatever it was before, isn't it?

Could be.  But could also not be.  That's all interpretive.  They never say what FORM your thoughts and memories will continue in.  They're preserved, sure.  But preserved for use against organics, perhaps?  It's not clear.  There's room for some good, sure.  But a lot of bad.

The "your connection to your kind will be lost", similarly, could just mean you don't have a physical body to snuggle with.  OR it could have  more nefarious meaning--especially coupled with the next sentence, meaning you lose all humanity and sympathy for organics, which sounds like a Reaper job description.

It's not an interprtaion. That the literal describition.

[AresKeith]

Dreman strikes again

[Davik Kang]

DrGunjah wrote...
That "chances are good" was based on "if the crucible fails..." because from what the catalyst says when explaining synthesis under certain circumstances it has impact on all organic life.
If you need an example of the crucible failing, watch low EMS destroy.
Another example is synthesis, which is worse than death, imho. That is only what bioware came up with. I'm sure when I make a thread about it there will be tons of creative ideas what could go wrong with our new shiny superweapon.

Yes you're right, Low EMS does demonstrate what happens if the Crucible goes wrong.  But it's still better than the alternative.  All those affected by the Reapers (who travel where the Mass Relays are) will be affected by the blast.  So most will die, but the Reapers will be gone, and they won't harvest everybody.  Life will begin anew and develop, but now it won't have to suffer from the Reaper cycle.  So even a disaster Destroy ending - or malfunctioning Crucible - is better than refuse.

As for Synthesis, I'm inclinded to agree with you up to a point.  I see Synthesis as outside of the other choices.  But that discussion would derail the thread

AlanC9 wrote...
If my thoughts are preserved, my will's whatever it was before, isn't it?

I don't think so.  If only your thoughts are preserved, the new AI can only make choices based on the choices you made before.  With free will, you have the ability to change your mind.

[dreman9999]

AresKeith wrote...

Dreman strikes again

More like you guys are not getting it. The chance of the catalyst lying is equal to the chance of it telling the truth. If you think it's trying to trick you to helping it harvest, you missing the fact that the catalyst did not even have to show up to even win. Tha crucible was not working till he did show up. If the catalyst wanted to win, he could of just did noting and this cycle would of been harvested. Yet, for some reason, he decides to give these options. Not one of you questions why?

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Just what makes you think that somewhen in future Organics and Synthetics once again don´t try to unite against Reapers as payoff for their crimes, or someone create even stronger synthetics than Reapers ... and Reapers with Shepalist went fully retard restart their programming and start with best solutions THE HARVESTS again ?

You clearly don't know why they started the harvest in the first place.

[M Hedonist]

Davik Kang wrote...

Life will begin anew and develop, but now it won't have to suffer from the Reaper cycle. 

That is an accurate description of exactly what happens in the Refusal ending.
Refusal Stargazer: "They fought a terrible war, so we wouldn't have to."
As for everybody being harvested - I didn't see anyone getting harvested, personally.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Just what makes you think that somewhen in future Organics and Synthetics once again don´t try to unite against Reapers as payoff for their crimes, or someone create even stronger synthetics than Reapers ... and Reapers with Shepalist went fully retard restart their programming and start with best solutions THE HARVESTS again ?

Refuse is already content with letting everyone die for nothing, so how is this any concern?

At least with Control you've bought the galaxy time, and maybe they figure out another way to destroy the Reapers. I doubt that either of the Control or Synthesis galaxies wouldn't at least plan for it.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Just what makes you think that somewhen in future Organics and Synthetics once again don´t try to unite against Reapers as payoff for their crimes, or someone create even stronger synthetics than Reapers ... and Reapers with Shepalist went fully retard restart their programming and start with best solutions THE HARVESTS again ?

You clearly don't know why they started the harvest in the first place.

Because Catalyst always failed in original programming, so he found a new solution - new programming ... 

If we are taking a face value of endings than from positions of Catalyst there are three endings: 
- destroy - kill me
- control - give me a new programming
- synthesis - try my mad experiment
- refuse - no like colours ? Well screw you

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Refuse is already content with letting everyone die for nothing, so how is this any concern?

At least with Control you've bought the galaxy time, and maybe they figure out another way to destroy the Reapers. I doubt that either of the Control or Synthesis galaxies wouldn't at least plan for it.

So you think that Reapers which will stand above us as space police will be just silent watching when cycle will try something ? 

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .

[Davik Kang]

Sauruz wrote...
That is an accurate description of exactly what happens in the Refusal ending.
Refusal Stargazer: "They fought a terrible war, so we wouldn't have to."
As for everybody being harvested - I didn't see anyone getting harvested, personally.

The first point is a good point.  The information passed down by Liara does seem to have enabled one of the future cycles to stop the Reapers, so that the Stargazer civilisation wouldn't have to.  However, it still took another cycle, and all the Turians, Krogans, Asari, Humans and Salarians et al were still wiped out.

Second point - right.  You're being serious?  So the Reapers suddenly think "Hey!  Shepard didn't use the Crucible!  Let's forget this whole thing we're doing of repeatedly harvesting sufficiently advanced races.  Who's with me?  Come on, they've suffered enough."

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Just what makes you think that somewhen in future Organics and Synthetics once again don´t try to unite against Reapers as payoff for their crimes, or someone create even stronger synthetics than Reapers ... and Reapers with Shepalist went fully retard restart their programming and start with best solutions THE HARVESTS again ?

You clearly don't know why they started the harvest in the first place.

Because Catalyst always failed in original programming, so he found a new solution - new programming ... 

If we are taking a face value of endings than from positions of Catalyst there are three endings: 
- destroy - kill me
- control - give me a new programming
- synthesis - try my mad experiment
- refuse - no like colours ? Well screw you

 

Ya,You clearly don't know why they started the harvest in the first place.

Also, don't know whatthe catalyst is doing at the end of the game.  Everything it's offier is form the crucible, not it self. The crusible is the reason why we have these options.

[DrGunjah]

Davik Kang wrote...
Yes you're right, Low EMS does demonstrate what happens if the Crucible goes wrong.  But it's still better than the alternative.  All those affected by the Reapers (who travel where the Mass Relays are) will be affected by the blast.  So most will die, but the Reapers will be gone, and they won't harvest everybody.  Life will begin anew and develop, but now it won't have to suffer from the Reaper cycle.  So even a disaster Destroy ending - or malfunctioning Crucible - is better than refuse.

As for Synthesis, I'm inclinded to agree with you up to a point.  I see Synthesis as outside of the other choices.  But that discussion would derail the thread

See, low EMS destroy is an example. The beam you send out, no matter the color, hits everything. Only which "exit" it uses determines the impact on synthetics, organics or both. A single defect may or may not invalidate the whole incredible complex equation and lead to whatever your imagination is capable of. Turn everyone into abominations or contaminate the whole galaxy with radiation so life is impossible for the next billion years. And we still have no evidence the reapers actually get killed.
Again, even if the all people tell you throughout the game the crucible is our only chance it doesn't become a fact.
People also thought for thousands of years that earth is flat.