435 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Refuse is already content with letting everyone die for nothing, so how is this any concern?

At least with Control you've bought the galaxy time, and maybe they figure out another way to destroy the Reapers. I doubt that either of the Control or Synthesis galaxies wouldn't at least plan for it.

So you think that Reapers which will stand above us as space police will be just silent watching when cycle will try something ? 

The Reapers aren't omni-present. The galaxy built a frickin bomb passed down over cycles and they didn't catch it. xD

Doesn't matter, though. If the Reapers harvest again, it's still not worse than Refuse.

With Destroy/Synthesis you can say that the irreversible cost of those outcomes make it "not worth" winning. But you really can't say anything like that with Control. It ultimately leaves 0 justification - IMO, ofc - for Refusers *not* to pick it.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...



So you think that Reapers which will stand above us as space police will be just silent watching when cycle will try something ? 

Reaper have no will of their own. They are just machines doing what they are programmed to do....And the Shepard ai changed the reapers programming.

[Fixers0]

 Why would we? It's the second worst option.

[m2iCodeJockey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Refuse is already content with letting everyone die for nothing, so how is this any concern?

It's pyrrhic but, it isn't for nothing if it gives the next group a chance to finish the job.

Like I said before: Each person is seeing a situation from his own perspective.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:57 .

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

 Why would we? It's the second worst option.

Right, the option to allow you to control teh reapers any way you want..Including having them not involve themselves with life at all , is some how the second worst option.

[dreman9999]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Refuse is already content with letting everyone die for nothing, so how is this any concern?

It's pyrrhic but, it isn't for nothing if it give the next group a chance to finish the job.

Like I said before: Each person is seeing a situation from his own perspective.

How is it  pyrrihic? Pyrrhic applies that both sided takes heavy loses. The reaper did not take heavy loses to win.

[M Hedonist]

Davik Kang wrote...

Second point - right.  You're being serious?  So the Reapers suddenly think "Hey!  Shepard didn't use the Crucible!  Let's forget this whole thing we're doing of repeatedly harvesting sufficiently advanced races.  Who's with me?  Come on, they've suffered enough."

I'm saying the common belief that 'everyone dies' in Refuse is entirely baseless. Whatever happens is (mostly) open for interpretation. There will be casualties - that much can be said of any of the endings. But the entire galaxy being wiped out? I don't think so. Seeing how much the Protheans have left over for us - not to mention a living Prothean - the Reapers seem to be really sloppy at their work. Plus, as Javik admits, our galaxy has an advantage over the Protheans. I'd be damned if they couldn't find a way to preserve themselves. As I see it, it's a population bottleneck event of epic proportions.

[Davik Kang]

DrGunjah wrote...
See, low EMS destroy is an example. The beam you send out, no matter the color, hits everything. Only which "exit" it uses determines the impact on synthetics, organics or both. A single defect may or may not invalidate the whole incredible complex equation and lead to whatever your imagination is capable of. Turn everyone into abominations or contaminate the whole galaxy with radiation so life is impossible for the next billion years. And we still have no evidence the reapers actually get killed. 
Again, even if the all people tell you throughout the game the crucible is our only chance it doesn't become a fact.
People also thought for thousands of years that earth is flat.

Sure, but your argument is starting to resemble somehting along the lines of:

"Whoa, I just found this picked up the M-920 Cain.  It seems pretty powerful, but what if I use it and me and all my squadmates die?  Or become warped by some kind of eezo radiation poisoning?"

It's taking the point outside the whole universe.  I know you're not trying to metagame, but pointing to consequences from the Destroy ending to make your point is pretty similar to metagaming, bearing in mind we are talking about your decision at the time.

You have to go on the information you have at the time.  The information is, the Crucible will kill the Reapers.  If it's badly damaged, then the devastation will be vast.  The galaxy won't be the same.  But it will still be better than a galaxy with Reapers.  If the Crucible isn't badly damaged, then all information says the Reapers will be destroyed at a relatively reduced cost.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .

[Fixers0]

dreman9999 wrote...

Right, the option to allow you to control teh reapers any way you want..Including having them not involve themselves with life at all , is some how the second worst option.

Yes, it is.

[Davik Kang]

Sauruz wrote...
I'm saying the common belief that 'everyone dies' in Refuse is entirely baseless. Whatever happens is (mostly) open for interpretation. There will be casualties - that much can be said of any of the endings. But the entire galaxy being wiped out? I don't think so. Seeing how much the Protheans have left over for us - not to mention a living Prothean - the Reapers seem to be really sloppy at their work. Plus, as Javik admits, our galaxy has an advantage over the Protheans. I'd be damned if they couldn't find a way to preserve themselves. As I see it, it's a population bottleneck event of epic proportions.

Ok.  So even though the Stargazer scene said that Shepard's legacy was based on information left behind, you're still going to claim that the current cycle might have won.  That the Reapers are sloppy.  

And Bioware didn't show us any of this, presumably because they're big meanies that just wanted you to feel bad, don't understand morals, and don't understand their own game.

We're talking about the decision at the end of ME3.  You seem to be retroactively defending a Refusal decision by inventing a story where conventional victory occured.  You're welcome to do that.  There's no discussion to be had.

[AlanC9]

Fixers0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Right, the option to allow you to control teh reapers any way you want..Including having them not involve themselves with life at all , is some how the second worst option.

Yes, it is.

Why?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

It's pyrrhic but, it isn't for nothing if it gives the next group a chance to finish the job.

You mean, a chance to do what Shepard himself should have done?

Any of Destroy/Control/Synthesis will finish the job. That the next cycle has to do anything is a miserable failure.

[m2iCodeJockey]

dreman9999 wrote...
How is it pyrrihic? Pyrrhic applies that both sided takes heavy loses. The reaper did not take heavy loses to win.

To metagame myself now, paraphrasing the post credit sequence: "...They fought a terrible battle so we did not have to..."
This seem to me that Hackett-Shepard-Joker Inc fought to the last ship but, the Reapers were so weakened by the war that the next group did not take much loss.

I simply found it distasteful someone put in there that the next group used the Crucible...

[Fixers0]

AlanC9 wrote...


Why?

Here,


It has some pros, but the both the concept and the choice of control itself is bad.

Modifié par Fixers0, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:12 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Any of Destroy/Control/Synthesis will finish the job. That the next cycle has to do anything is a miserable failure.

Hyr, it's already clear that you did not have my life and I, not yours so, we won't nearly have the same ethical structure but, try to answer something without prejudice.

Ghostie says: "...The first organic ever to come this far..."
If Shepard is the first to make it there, why do YOU think half of the machine is already on the Citadel?

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:17 .

[M Hedonist]

Davik Kang wrote...

Sauruz wrote...
I'm saying the common belief that 'everyone dies' in Refuse is entirely baseless. Whatever happens is (mostly) open for interpretation. There will be casualties - that much can be said of any of the endings. But the entire galaxy being wiped out? I don't think so. Seeing how much the Protheans have left over for us - not to mention a living Prothean - the Reapers seem to be really sloppy at their work. Plus, as Javik admits, our galaxy has an advantage over the Protheans. I'd be damned if they couldn't find a way to preserve themselves. As I see it, it's a population bottleneck event of epic proportions.

Ok.  So even though the Stargazer scene said that Shepard's legacy was based on information left behind, you're still going to claim that the current cycle might have won.  That the Reapers are sloppy.  

And Bioware didn't show us any of this, presumably because they're big meanies that just wanted you to feel bad, don't understand morals, and don't understand their own game.

We're talking about the decision at the end of ME3.  You seem to be retroactively defending a Refusal decision by inventing a story where conventional victory occured.  You're welcome to do that.  There's no discussion to be had.

Now you're also making your own interpretations of what I write!
Ok, let me make this as clear as possible to you:
These are the facts:
a) The Protheans managed to bring a living Prothean into the next cycle
We have a big advantage over the Protheans; Shepard managed to gather the best fighting forces of the galaxy, not to mention the best scientists
Based on what we know, I daresay the assumption "everyone dies" is not necessarily the most plausible explanation of what happened.
Now, this is the most important part; (I had assumed this would be obvious from my post, but apparently it wasn't.)
What I'm saying is that the current galaxy will do something similar to what the Protheans did to bring Javik into the next cycle - only that this cycle will likely have much more success at it.
As I said, population bottleneck event of epic proportions.

[dreman9999]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is it pyrrihic? Pyrrhic applies that both sided takes heavy loses. The reaper did not take heavy loses to win.

To metagame myself now, paraphrasing the post credit sequence: "...They fought a terrible battle so we did not have to..."
This seem to me that Hackett-Shepard-Joker Inc fought to the last ship but, the Reapers were so weakened by the war that the next group did not take much loss.

I simply found it distasteful someone put in there that the next group used the Crucible...

Sorry, DEV say used the crucible and devs have last say.

[dreman9999]

Fixers0 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


Why?

Here,


It has some pros, but the both the concept and the choice of control itself is bad.

BS, Tim has nothing to do with it and it's not about killing reapers. It's about stopping them. It does not mean you don't have them destoryed  later. That also does nto make it the 2nd worse choice.

[M Hedonist]

dreman9999 wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is it pyrrihic? Pyrrhic applies that both sided takes heavy loses. The reaper did not take heavy loses to win.

To metagame myself now, paraphrasing the post credit sequence: "...They fought a terrible battle so we did not have to..."
This seem to me that Hackett-Shepard-Joker Inc fought to the last ship but, the Reapers were so weakened by the war that the next group did not take much loss.

I simply found it distasteful someone put in there that the next group used the Crucible...

Sorry, DEV say used the crucible and devs have last say.

That's what one dev wrote, on Twitter.
Video games are a collaborative effort. What one person who was involved in the project - even if he was lead writer - says after the product was released has little relevance to what is actually in the product.

[DrGunjah]

Davik Kang wrote...
Sure, but your argument as starting to resemble somehting along the lines of:

"Whoa, I just found this picked up the M-920 Cain.  It seems pretty powerful, but what if I use it and me and all my squadmates die?  Or become warped by some kind of eezo radiation poisoning?"

It's taking the point outside the whole universe.  I know you're not trying to metagame, but pointing to consequences from the Destroy ending to make your point is pretty similar to meatgaming, bearing in mind we are talking about your decision at the time.

I've stated several times now that low EMS destroy is only an
example, I don't know how else I should point it out for you to realize
I'm not metagaming but just try to visualize something for you. I also gave other examples in my last post.

You have to go on the information you have at the time.  The information is, the Crucible will kill the Reapers.  If it's badly damaged, then the devastation will be vast.  The galaxy won't be the same.  But it will still be better than a galaxy with Reapers.  If the Crucible isn't badly damaged, then all information says the Reapers will be destroyed at a relatively reduced cost.

At the time when you sit down with anderson and look at earth your information about the crucible is "attach it to the citadel, then it destroys the reapers". Then in the catalyst chamber, you get new information, not only what holokid tells you but also what you can see for yourself. The reaper overlord is here. He changed the citadel which leads to 3 choices. He even tells you that the crucible is not much more than a power source. So basically, the reapers decide how the energy of the crucible will be released. Even if I assume he tells the truth there is still the possibility he made a mistake (now I see dreman coming again to tell me the catalyst can not fail )

About your "cain" metaphor - No I probably would not use a weapon with a radioactive warning symbol on it if I don't know **** about it. In ME2 it's not that you find it lying around under a stone, you do resarch to unlock it, so shepard can assume that the weapon was tested to not explode in his hands.
I'd rather say we as players go through the game and pick up and use every weapon because we are metagaming and assume bioware doesn't put weapons in the ground that explode in our hands. (and probably because there is no "send weapon to test facility" feature)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Hyr, it's already clear that you did not have my life and I, not yours so, we won't nearly have the same ethical structure but, try to answer something without prejudice.

Ghostie says: "...The first organic ever to come this far..."
If Shepard is the first to make it there, why do YOU think half of the machine is already on the Citadel?

I have no idea what you're asking.

[dreman9999]

Sauruz wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
How is it pyrrihic? Pyrrhic applies that both sided takes heavy loses. The reaper did not take heavy loses to win.

To metagame myself now, paraphrasing the post credit sequence: "...They fought a terrible battle so we did not have to..."
This seem to me that Hackett-Shepard-Joker Inc fought to the last ship but, the Reapers were so weakened by the war that the next group did not take much loss.

I simply found it distasteful someone put in there that the next group used the Crucible...

Sorry, DEV say used the crucible and devs have last say.

That's what one dev wrote, on Twitter.
Video games are a collaborative effort. What one person who was involved in the project - even if he was lead writer - says after the product was released has little relevance to what is actually in the product.

Oh stop it. The dev that wrote was the producer of the project. Stop try to find away out of using the crucible. Sorry, no matter what you do, it's used.

[Davik Kang]

DrGunjah wrote...
About your "cain" metaphor - No I probably would not use a weapon with a radioactive warning symbol on it if I don't know **** about it. In ME2 it's not that you find it lying around under a stone, you do resarch to unlock it, so shepard can assume that the weapon was tested to not explode in his hands. 

Ok.  Imo we are going round in circles.  I respect your assertions and interpretations because there is plenty of logic behind them.  But we're not really talking about anything any more.  My point was that your choice is to use the gun or not use it.  You don't find the Crucible 'under a stone'; you research and unlock it just like the Cain.  You can't test it, sure, because you don't have the Catalyst (not talking about what the Catalyst is; I'm just saying that, according to the plans, the Catalyst is the final component required).

But imagine if you did find it under a rock.  Putting it back to your example, let's say a big Atlas or something is coming to squash you and your squad who are trapped under rubble.  You find the Cain under a rock.  You've never seen it or even heard of it before.  Do you pull the trigger?  Or do you let yourself be squished.  After all, it could cause a planet-wide disaster killing all life on it for 50,000 years for all you know.

You probably have an answer.  But I don't think it's changing anything.  We keep making the same points backwards and forwards.

I notice we are just carrying on our discussion from the last thread.  I posted a couple of questions there too.  If you want you can answer those too, but I don't think we're getting anywhere.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:59 .

[m2iCodeJockey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...
Hyr, it's already clear that you did not have my life and I, not yours so, we won't nearly have the same ethical structure but, try to answer something without prejudice.
Ghostie says: "...The first organic ever to come this far..."
If Shepard is the first to make it there, why do YOU think half of the machine is already on the Citadel?

I have no idea what you're asking.

When Shepard is in the Decision Chamber, the Control node, Destroy tube, the cabling connected to each area and the structure all that is mounted to is part of the Citadel, not the Crucible which was just built and delivered.

If the first thing the Reapers normally do is come through and capture the Citadel, why do YOU think the RGB machine is already built onto the Citadel? You know: Waiting there for someone to attach a Crucible.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

When Shepard is in the Decision Chamber, the Control node, Destroy tube, the cabling connected to each area and the structure all that is mounted to is part of the Citadel, not the Crucible which was just built and delivered.

If the first thing the Reapers normally do is come through and capture the Citadel, why do YOU think the RGB machine is already built onto the Citadel? You know: Waiting there for someone to attach a Crucible.

Because I don't believe what you do. RGB =/= a machine sitting around the Citadel, those are Crucible functions. The only thing the Citadel does is spread the Crucible's energy through the relay system.

Two different cinematics show that the Crucible has a nubbin attached to where it docks on the Citadel. Shepard is raised to that level by the elevator. Once there, the Crucible is in front of him. Destroy/Control were part of that nubbin. The beam for Synthesis is the catalyst himself powering up the device. Note the color of glowboy, and that of the beam. That beam goes offline in Refuse, just like he himself does.

RGB was all Crucible.