435 réponses à ce sujet

[Hey]

dreman9999 wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What causes the fall of a person is indifferance,not power. Power does not inheritly corrupt no matter how abolute it is.

so when Galadriel went all 'im gonna kill everyone' in the presence of the ring was that indifference? 

We have to go back to that point that the reapers have no will of there, own are we?

Added, when he goes for the ring he does not much care what the others think does he?

I dont know Dreman, I think I know what you mean a bit.  Sometimes you have to pick a side, right?  I agree with this.  But I feel like the allure of becoming a deity to succumbing to a ring of power is  an apt comparison -   thats all...  yo..

[Isichar]

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Isichar wrote...

Seems like the only person in the entire series who thought control was a good idea was the person been controlled to think that.

One moment my Shepard is saying "We can destroy them now, but if you cant control them..." and then no more then 5 minutes later you can die trying to do that exact same thing.

I dont think OP understands why people choose refuse, the same way others can't understand why someone could choose synthesis. Better to just agree to disagree.

What does it matter what TIM thinks? What TIM thinks does nto devalue the choice. He had completly different reason to want to control the reapers then you do.
It's not the same case.

Because he was the only one in the entire series that seemed to feel Control of the reapers was the best solution. Infact the only people in the series that felt the reapers could be a solution to anything are the people been controlled by the reapers.

But his reason is differnet then yours. That's the key point. And you still have free will.

Yep right up until you choose control and loose it.

Funny I was fighting so long for free will just so i could give it up.

Everyone who has ever interfaced with reaper tech and became indoctrinated believed they could control it too, but maybe your just the 1 lucky one who just happens to be right

Modifié par Isichar, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:49 .

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Frodo: [holding out the Ring] Take it Gandalf!

[Gandalf backs away]

Frodo: Take it!

Gandalf: No, Frodo.

Frodo: You must take it!

Gandalf: You cannot offer me this ring!

Frodo: I'm giving it to you!

Gandalf: Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

You do  know the ring has a will of it's own and the reapers don't ,right?

I'm not sure at all where you got this notion that the Reaper's have no will...  To be fair it's never expressly denied that they don't, but it seems to be at least partial head-canon.  

When you meet their leader the Reapers themselves try to persuade you to do what they want.  Even by your own admission: they have a preference in Synthesis.  You can prefer something if you don't have a will.

(The Catalyst also expressly states that he controls the Reapers, that they were therefore answerable to his whim.)

And the Reapers even explain what their agenda is in pruning the universe of life.  They seemed to have a mess of will there to: 'This is our belief, this is how we bring it about; this is how you can help us do our job...'

Indeed, even back in the ME1 days we were told that we petty organics would die because they 'demand' it.  You don't demand stuff if you have no will.

Modifié par drayfish, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[dreman9999]

Festae9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

What causes the fall of a person is indifferance,not power. Power does not inheritly corrupt no matter how abolute it is.

so when Galadriel went all 'im gonna kill everyone' in the presence of the ring was that indifference? 

We have to go back to that point that the reapers have no will of there, own are we?

Added, when he goes for the ring he does not much care what the others think does he?

I dont know Dreman, I think I know what you mean a bit.  Sometimes you have to pick a side, right?  I agree with this.  But I feel like the allure of becoming a deity to succumbing to a ring of power is  an apt comparison -   thats all...  yo..

Well, think of it this way....People who seek the ring do so because they want the power...But your only want control because you don't want to have anyone else die.

You don't want the reapers power, but you have to take to make sure everyone lives. 

Control is a bitter pill while the ring is an illusion of ecstasy.

[m2iCodeJockey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
...From there, what consequences could Control rationally pose to make the Refuser believe it's not worth at least attempting, as a means to stop the war?

FemShep: "I... am Commander Kaede Shepard... Daughter of now Rear Admiral Hannah Shepard.
Someone told me:
To me, your first name is Commander.

That made no sense at the time. I left it to fact we'd been drinking heavily however, now that I think about it, my mother will always be Captain Hannah.
I should have called her...

A man I looked up to as a father, though, I never told him as much, gave me his ship, his crew, his mission to complete.
I'm too close to this thing, Shepard. Take the Normandy and stop Saren before he finds the Conduit...

When it was over, they called me a hero but, I had lost a good friend and, to be honest, I did not win that fight, succeeding mostly through the shortsightedness of my enemies. Using the strength of my crew, a very burned victory was snatched from the fire that was Saren finding and using the Conduit first and Sovereign successfully capturing the Citadel.

Along the way, another man, whom I respected, sent me in to a negotiation.
You're sending me?!!

When it was over, everyone lay dead or dying, except my squad and myself.
You didn't think you were the only one willing to break a few rules to get the job done, did you?

He had me pegged from the start. Am I too dangerous for this job? Perhaps I am.

A few years later, I gunned down some 50 people, while simply looking for the name of ship. They were in their own base, which I had entered without even attempting to ask permission. People tried to rationalize:
Each Eclipse Sister must kill someone in order to earn her uniform.

That doesn't mean they all killed innocent people. Eclipse is a legitimate business which regularly handles bounty contracts. It's possible I gunned down 49 perfectly respectable bounty hunters and 1 murderer.
Am I any less kill lusty than the person I was tracking? Before they were all dead, I don't remember having asked anyone a single question.
Kill lust... Kill lust, indeed...

And now, here I am, standing at a very literal cross roads where someone tells me I can take direct control of an army which has literally killed the entire galaxy 20000 times over..."

Sovereign classed Shreaper: "Do not park in Liara's space or I'll vaporize you, and maybe your entire city while trying to track you down... HRNNNNNNNNNNNP!!!"
Shreaperlyst (inner monologue:) "I... was Commander Kaede Shepard... ...This is too much power..."

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 19 octobre 2012 - 02:59 .

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Frodo: [holding out the Ring] Take it Gandalf!

[Gandalf backs away]

Frodo: Take it!

Gandalf: No, Frodo.

Frodo: You must take it!

Gandalf: You cannot offer me this ring!

Frodo: I'm giving it to you!

Gandalf: Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

You do  know the ring has a will of it's own and the reapers don't ,right?

I'm not sure at all where you got this notion that the Reaper's have no will...  To be fair it's never expressly denied that they don't, but it seems to be at least partial head-canon.  

When you meet their leader the Reapers themselves try to persuade you to do what they want?  Even by your own admission: they have a preference in Synthesis.  You can prefer something if you don't have a will.

(The Catalyst also expressly states that he controls the Reapers, that they were therefore answerable to his whim.)

And the Reapers even explain what their agenda is in pruning the universe of life.  They seemed to have a mess of will there to: 'This is our belief, this is how we bring it about; this is how you can help us do our job...'

Indeed, even back in the  ME1 days we were told that we petty organics would die because they 'demand' it.  You don't demand stuff if you have no will.

Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 
The catalyst is  shackled.

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 
The catalyst is  shackled.


The reapers may have an ego...but..

EGO=/=Will.

And yes you can perfer something if have no will....Only you prefer what you told to prefer. If I have on willof my own and I'm told I like apples...Then I like apples. I just don't have control of what I perfer.

That can even be advanced more by having an equation appled so a set varible of things I can perfer.

Modifié par dreman9999, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Frodo: [holding out the Ring] Take it Gandalf!

[Gandalf backs away]

Frodo: Take it!

Gandalf: No, Frodo.

Frodo: You must take it!

Gandalf: You cannot offer me this ring!

Frodo: I'm giving it to you!

Gandalf: Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

You do  know the ring has a will of it's own and the reapers don't ,right?

I'm not sure at all where you got this notion that the Reaper's have no will...  To be fair it's never expressly denied that they don't, but it seems to be at least partial head-canon.  

When you meet their leader the Reapers themselves try to persuade you to do what they want?  Even by your own admission: they have a preference in Synthesis.  You can prefer something if you don't have a will.

(The Catalyst also expressly states that he controls the Reapers, that they were therefore answerable to his whim.)

And the Reapers even explain what their agenda is in pruning the universe of life.  They seemed to have a mess of will there to: 'This is our belief, this is how we bring it about; this is how you can help us do our job...'

Indeed, even back in the  ME1 days we were told that we petty organics would die because they 'demand' it.  You don't demand stuff if you have no will.

The levithens and the catalyst tell you this bluntly......



Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Leviathan: ]perserve life at any cost.[/color]

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 
The catalyst is  shackled.


The reapers may have an ego...but..

EGO=/=Will.

And yes you can perfer something if have no will....Only you prefer what you told to prefer. If I have on willof my own and I'm told I like apples...Then I like apples. I just don't have control of what I perfer.

That can even be advanced more by having an equation appled so a set varible of thing I can perfer.

The Reapers may be 'shackled' (whatever that means when your toolset is wide enough to encompass Genocide; mutation; and mind-control - and you can choose yourself how to use them) but they still clearly have a will. 

They have a purpose they wish to achieve and the latitude to achieve it as they deem fit (that's precisely why the Leviathans were so surprised their techno-baby turned against them).  What appears to be locked in is their primary mission statement, not the way about which they undertake it - and that implies relative autonomy and a necessary will.

Again: how could - as you have made note - the reapers have a preference for Synthesis if they did not have the capacity for choice?

[dreman9999]

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

drayfish wrote...

Frodo: [holding out the Ring] Take it Gandalf!

[Gandalf backs away]

Frodo: Take it!

Gandalf: No, Frodo.

Frodo: You must take it!

Gandalf: You cannot offer me this ring!

Frodo: I'm giving it to you!

Gandalf: Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

You do  know the ring has a will of it's own and the reapers don't ,right?

I'm not sure at all where you got this notion that the Reaper's have no will...  To be fair it's never expressly denied that they don't, but it seems to be at least partial head-canon.  

When you meet their leader the Reapers themselves try to persuade you to do what they want?  Even by your own admission: they have a preference in Synthesis.  You can prefer something if you don't have a will.

(The Catalyst also expressly states that he controls the Reapers, that they were therefore answerable to his whim.)

And the Reapers even explain what their agenda is in pruning the universe of life.  They seemed to have a mess of will there to: 'This is our belief, this is how we bring it about; this is how you can help us do our job...'

Indeed, even back in the  ME1 days we were told that we petty organics would die because they 'demand' it.  You don't demand stuff if you have no will.

The levithens and the catalyst tell you this bluntly......



Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...



[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">Leviathan: ]perserve life at any cost.[/color]

That basicly means  they made a shackled  AI to solve a problem with no limit ever given to how. 
It's shackled. 
The catalyst is  shackled.


The reapers may have an ego...but..

EGO=/=Will.

And yes you can perfer something if have no will....Only you prefer what you told to prefer. If I have on willof my own and I'm told I like apples...Then I like apples. I just don't have control of what I perfer.

That can even be advanced more by having an equation appled so a set varible of thing I can perfer.

The Reapers may be 'shackled' (whatever that means when your toolset is wide enough to encompass Genocide; mutation; and mind-control - and you can choose yourself how to use them) but they still clearly have a will. 

They have a purpose they wish to achieve and the latitude to achieve it as they deem fit (that's precisely why the Leviathans were so surprised their techno-baby turned against them).  What appears to be locked in is their primary mission statement, not the way about which they undertake it - and that implies relative autonomy and a necessary will.

Again: how could - as you have made note - the reapers have a preference for Synthesis if they did not have the capacity for choice?

Being a shackled ai means they inheritly have no will. They don't decide why they do things. The go things because they have to and are programmed to . It like a car being driven, it moves because it's give oders to. Don't confuse ego and will as one...It'snot the same.

Take the time t think like amachine that does what it's told and you get what I mean. Exsisting to do what you told to do and nothing else is not free will.

And as I said before, they have a preferance because they are installed with one and an equation get them to have a prefernce. This is an issue with how machines think.

[drayfish]

dreman9999 wrote...

Being a shackled ai means they inheritly have no will. They don't decide why they do things. The go things because they have to and are programmed to . It like a car being driven, it moves because it's give oders to. Don't confuse ego and will as one...It'snot the same.

Take the time t think like amachine that does what it's told and you get what I mean. Exsisting to do what you told to do and nothing else is not free will.

And as I said before, they have a preferance because they are installed with one and an equation get them to have a prefernce. This is an issue with how machines think.

It seems odd I should need to point out that when I press the accelerator on my car it does not brianwash other motorists, exterminate them, and turn them into paste.  (Well, I didn't spring for the sports package - so maybe that would have...)

In the analogy that you have used a machine has no self-determination - it requires someone to expressly tell it what to do the whole time or it goes nowhere.  That is not the case in this scenario: indeed, that's the fundamental point of the story being told.

Your central observation contradicts the narrative: the whole terrible irony at the heart of the Leviathan story is that they created an intelligence to function on its own in order to achieve a goal that they set for it.  In fact, it has so much latitude in its decision making that it has made it's own series of hypothesis and is now fulfilling them.

It made the decision to start exterminating people.  It came up with the whole 'lets turn everyone into giant space cuttlefish'.  It decided that the Crucible could fulfill it's plan.

None of that was programmed into the original mission parameters.  At no point did the Leviathans say 'Please wipe us out of the galaxy'.

The fact that this creature has such a wide scope of action, and the fact that it can (utterly on its own) weigh up its options and proceed in the manner it sees best, is proof that it has will.

Modifié par drayfish, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:07 .

[DrGunjah]

dreman9999 wrote...
But it's show to be there. It is a part installed into the citadel. Shepard is standing on that in the end of the game.

Even if the pics were evidence for this assumption (which they are not, imho), it would change nothing.
Think about it, the plans are flawless and work perfectly with the citadel, but the person who invented the three options doesn't mention it in the plans? So he either is endlessly stupid or he doesn't want you to know about it. Of course it's the latter in this case and it also explains why the catalyst doesn't want to tell you more about the crucible. In this scenario the 3-way modification of the crucible can only be invented by the reapers themself (or maybe the leviathans, not sure about it) as the option called synthesis solves a problem that only the catalyst (or leviathans maybe, again) claims to be there. The catalyst says you are the first one to be there. So how can anyone in history create a solution for a problem he is not aware of? How could anyone without the knowledge of the reapers (or leviathans...) even invent a device that does something like synthesis or control?
Not to mention it doesn't make any sense to keep the destroy option. Remember you have to shoot something to make destroy happen. What a ****ing idiot would invent such a mechanism and put it into the crucible plans? If he wants it not to happen than he could just remove destroy from the plans! It makes much more sense for  the destroy mechanism to be some kind of blocking mechanism that was created to prevent the crucible from fulfilling it's intended purpose.

[daecath]

Because I'm not an idiot who believes his greatest enemy is going to just hand over the keys to the kingdom because you ask nicely. The catalyst is a liar, the leader of a race of liars; you have absolutely no reason to believe him, especially after his lame-ass excuse for mass genocide; and his options he gives you are ridiculous. "Hi, I'm your enemy, would you like to either take total control of my army, rewrite everyone's DNA to make them into a robo-organic hybrid, or blow us all up?" Riiight, sure thing, I'll get right on that, right after we finish the candy in your van that you promised me, and then show me that bridge I'm buying.

[SpamBot2000]

Hmmm... spending forever in a computer, watching stuff emerge and fade away really freaking slowly with no friend or companion except the Reapers, trying to keep from reaping stuff just to have something to do... I think not.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

drayfish wrote...

Frodo: [holding out the Ring] Take it Gandalf!

[Gandalf backs away]

Frodo: Take it!

Gandalf: No, Frodo.

Frodo: You must take it!

Gandalf: You cannot offer me this ring!

Frodo: I'm giving it to you!

Gandalf: Don't... tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand, Frodo. I would use this ring from a desire to do good... But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.

Right, and before EC, I'd have accepted this stance. For that matter, you're not the first person that I've seen use this LotR reference as a response to Control. The "absolute power corrupts absolutley" argument is not lost on me at all. After EC, though, we have people choosing certain death over it which I simply find utterly ridiculous.

It's very simple: some chance is better than no chance. By now, every player should know that the conventional victory is not happening, nor will the Reapers/catalyst be stopped with a talking to. So to reject an option over a fear of the worst-case outcome, which is *the same as* the guaranteed outcome of what you're choosing deliberately.... I just don't get it. I get not choosing Destroy/Synthesis in favor of Refuse - disagree completely, but get it. But for Control this is cut-and-dried. If it fails... oh well, 'least you tried. On the flip side, there's a chance it may work out okay, too. That's more than can be said with Refuse.


Going back to the LotR quote, Gandalf still ultimately entrusts that great power onto Frodo. It's no less a risk than Gandalf keeping it himself, so why does he do it? Because it was necessary. To that, another Gandalf quote:

Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time given to us.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:02 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

daecath wrote...

Because I'm not an idiot who believes his greatest enemy is going to just hand over the keys to the kingdombecause you ask nicely. The catalyst is a liar, the leader of a race of liars; you have absolutely no reason to believe him, especially after his lame-ass excuse for mass genocide; and his options he gives you are ridiculous. "Hi, I'm your enemy, would you like to either take total control of my army, rewrite everyone's DNA to make them into a robo-organic hybrid, or blow us all up?" Riiight, sure thing, I'll get right on that, right after we finish the candy in your van that you promised me, and then show me that bridge I'm buying.

The funny thing about this is, the concept of trust here is paradoxically naiive. It implies something so simple as: friends can be trusted, enemies cannot be. Seems legit. Afterall, enemies use deception against you all too often.

But then there's the reality: it's not so simple. Your friends can betray you, just as easily as an enemy can prove useful to you enough to accept their help. So what matters is not who you identify as an ally or nemesis. What matters is this: motive. That's why anyone, friend or enemy, does what they do.

Understanding that, there's nothing strange involved with the catalyst handing you the keys: your needs are aligned (he needs a new solution, you need to end the cycle).

Fandango9641 wrote...

So 17 pages and counting, let’s strip away the fluff and establish exactly what people think the ‘justifications’ for control are:

1) Metagaming tells me that Reapers are unstoppable, so it was worth a try

I think that covers it (have I missed anything)?!

Using something the game/story tells you as basic, background knowledge is *not* metagaming. Otherwise, accepting everything in the game which is fictional is metagaming too: biotics, FTL, what have you.

For that matter, I'd most likely choose Destroy over conventional-warfare even if victory were viable!!

How's that for metagaming?

[Steelcan]

Using LotR to justify something in ME is pointless. But if we are going to, everyone in Middle Earth realized that the ring had to be destroyed, controlling the power of the ring was impossible, but some still tried. In the end Frodo tried to keep all the power for himself. But only because he was listening to the ring, it fed on his fears and worries. Sound familiar?

the only sure way for peace was destroying it.   "It is not up to us to decide the weather of those who follow us, only that they have good earth to till."  Paraphrasing but still relevant 

Modifié par Steelcan, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:16 .

[Silcron]

Steelcan wrote...

Using LotR to justify something in ME is pointless. But if we are going to, everyone in Middle Earth realized that the ring had to be destroyed, controlling the power of the ring was impossible, but some still tried. In the end Frodo tried to keep all the power for himself. But only because he was listening to the ring, it fed on his fears and worries. Sound familiar?

the only sure way for peace was destroying it.   "It is not up to us to decide the weather of those who follow us, only that they have good earth to till."  Paraphrasing but still relevant 

*claps* And THIS (it deserves caps)

[Steelcan]

Silcron wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Using LotR to justify something in ME is pointless. But if we are going to, everyone in Middle Earth realized that the ring had to be destroyed, controlling the power of the ring was impossible, but some still tried. In the end Frodo tried to keep all the power for himself. But only because he was listening to the ring, it fed on his fears and worries. Sound familiar?

the only sure way for peace was destroying it.   "It is not up to us to decide the weather of those who follow us, only that they have good earth to till."  Paraphrasing but still relevant 

*claps* And THIS (it deserves caps)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Steelcan wrote...

Using LotR to justify something in ME is pointless. But if we are going to, everyone in Middle Earth realized that the ring had to be destroyed, controlling the power of the ring was impossible, but some still tried. In the end Frodo tried to keep all the power for himself. But only because he was listening to the ring, it fed on his fears and worries. Sound familiar?

the only sure way for peace was destroying it.   "It is not up to us to decide the weather of those who follow us, only that they have good earth to till."  Paraphrasing but still relevant

Believe me, I was well aware of this fact before I hit [Submit].

There's a key difference here: by simply carrying the ring, they took the same risk one makes by choosing Control. That risk being, the carrier may be "corrupted" before carrying out their original goal of destroying it, and will renege that objective entirely. It was a risk they were forced to take, however, it was necessary for peace. And, it worked out fine.

If Destroy/Synthesis are truly that damnable to Refusers, you're essentially left with the same thing: a necessary risk. Lest you let the enemy keep their power and put everyone in the world at their mercy.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 19 octobre 2012 - 07:35 .

[drayfish]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Right, and before EC, I'd have accepted this stance. For that matter, you're not the first person that I've seen use this LotR reference as a response to Control. The "absolute power corrupts absolutley" argument is not lost on me at all. After EC, though, we have people choosing certain death over it which I simply find utterly ridiculous.

It's very simple: some chance is better than no chance. By now, every player should know that the conventional victory is not happening, nor will the Reapers/catalyst be stopped with a talking to. So to reject an option over a fear of the worst-case outcome, which is *the same as* the guaranteed outcome of what you're choosing deliberately.... I just don't get it. I get not choosing Destroy/Synthesis in favor of Refuse - disagree completely, but get it. But for Control this is cut-and-dried. If it fails... oh well, 'least you tried. On the flip side, there's a chance it may work out okay, too. That's more than can be said with Refuse.


Going back to the LotR quote, Gandalf still ultimately entrusts that great power onto Frodo. It's no less a risk than Gandalf keeping it himself, so why does he do it? Because it was necessary. To that, another Gandalf quote:

Frodo: I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish none of this happened.
Gandalf: So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time given to us.

You seem to have some curious (I would argue misguided) notion that once Shepard picks Refuse everyone just lays down their guns and waits for the reapin'. 

Refuse is not the 'Oh well, lets just give up and get a snack...' option that people such as yourself seem to repeatedly categorise it being.  (I'm not sure whether this is just a means of justifying your own choice, but it is extrememly unhelpful.)  The fact that Bioware chose to leave Shepard standing meekly in the dark like a stooge should in no way suggest weakness.  The war still goes on.  Doubtless it takes decades - and yes it ultimately fails - but arguing that Shepard should have definitely already known, and that moment, that there would never be any hope is metagaming.

What Refuse symbolises is that Shepard is unwilling to buy into what appears to be a trap - a gift too good to be true, being offered by the uber-enemy, who has a history of using this very deception on people to pull them into his thrall (I'm sure they whispered: 'You, unlike everyone else, could control us...' to the Illusive Man too), and who is telling Shepard that she has to take up his mission, using his tools of domination, to bring it about.  Nothing in that mix predisposes me to trust.  Indeed, it seems openly hopeless and reckless to pick one of those three choices - genocide, eugenics, totalitarian domination - and become a Reaper herself.

In contrast, Refuse symbolises that even with her back against the wall, even in the darkest hour, when all seems lost (add any number of other epic cliches into the narrative salad), Shepard will not abandon her faith in the fellowship she has gathered.  She will not validate a fundamentally racist world view that is, at its heart, a form of nihilistic surrender.  She will not inflict horror upon her own people - at the request of her enemy - just because its easier.  She will not become an unstoppable totalitarian god (possibly losing all control of herself - as everyone who has ever tried that before has - and strengthening the Reapers by adding herself to the mix).


Again: I'm not saying it's the right choice - every single one of these endings are disgusting - but you keep asking people to explain the 'state of mind' of the Refuser and then slapping them down with dissatisfaction when you get them, so maybe this will help you understand why some people choose it, and allow you to show respect enough to not belittle them, or demand that they change their opinion because it does not match yours.

Modifié par drayfish, 19 octobre 2012 - 08:40 .

[Sheepie Crusher]

Star kid: TIM couldn't control us because we already controled him but you can control us

Me: And how do I know you are not manipulating me right now?

Starkid: because I said so

Modifié par Sheepie Crusher, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:59 .

[ATLAS1192]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
For every 1 Miracle of Palaven there are 10 Fall of Thessia's.

This is a part of my signature now, thank you sir.

[Phil Dingus]

I'd pick Refuse just because it's nonsensical (a trap) that after all these millenia, the Starkid just lifts me up there and says "All right, well, pick a button to end all this stuff, I guess."

That was the part of the ending that bugged me the most.

[DrGunjah]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
There's a key difference here: by simply carrying the ring, they took the same risk one makes by choosing Control.

No. Because there's another difference - the ring is not a high energy power source that may blow up in your hands when just carrying it. Further, it's actually his buddy gandalf that tells him he should carry the ring to finally destroy it. It's not that sauron knocks on his door and says "hey dude, you should really carry that ring and go destroy it because otherwise I will kill you all. Unfortunately there's no time to tell you why and you wouldn't understand it anyway. Oh and hurry up! B)"

[KENNY4753]

Sheepie Crusher wrote...

Star kid: TIM couldn't control us because we already controled him but you can control us

Me: And how do I know you are not manipulating me right now?

Starkid: because I said so

That pretty much somes it up.

I don't trust the brat so why would I choose something he presents.