435 réponses à ce sujet

[m2iCodeJockey]

AlanC9 wrote...
2). It's telling the truth when it say that docking the Crucible changed it.

Why would the connection what it described as a mere power source change a billion-year-old entity?
It said Shepard was the first to make it that far then, why is all that crap already installed on the Citadel?

Xilizhra wrote...
Because if it's lying, I'm totally screwed no matter what I do. Even if I refuse... what then? I can't do anything about anything where I am, and we'll lose the fight. Additionally, I don't believe it would have brought the elevator up to it if it just wanted me dead; hell, if it wants that, it could just turn off the mass effect fields surrounding the area and vent me into space. Ultimately, I have nothing to lose by trying one of the solutions, because the worst-case scenario is the same result that I"d get if I didn't.

More like: No matter what Shepard does, picking anything it presents serves its goal.

And its ultimate goal appears to be to con the galaxy into willfully accepting Synthesis while under duress.

[Xilizhra]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Yate wrote...
I don't know why everyone is like DON'T TRUST CATALYST, guys, he invited you to his room and told you everything about his plans. Why would he do that?

Because he's insane, incompetent, or part of his plan.

He's the over-arching directing intelligence of the foe we have been opposing since Day 1. There is no reason why he would do this unless the above is true.

The Catalyst doesn't think like an organic. It has no emotional attachment to its plan. If it realizes the plan won't work anymore, it'll switch to a new one without regret. That might count as "insane" if an organic was doing it, but not here.

More like: No matter what Shepard does, picking anything it presents serves its goal.

And its ultimate goal appears to be to con the galaxy into willfully accepting Synthesis while under duress.

Oh well. I still have to do something.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Yate wrote...
I don't know why everyone is like DON'T TRUST CATALYST, guys, he invited you to his room and told you everything about his plans. Why would he do that?

To keep Shepard away from the CONTROL PANEL near Anderson.

1) If Shepard picks Control - Shepard starts speaking an awful lot like Sovereign and Harbinger, the Reapers still exist and can resume eating people at any moment someone refuses to give Liara free stuff and special treatment...
2) If Destroy, it's not impossible that not all Reapers/synthetics were reached/destroyed.
3) Its goal appears to be to get people to accept Synthesis, leaving synthetics vulnerable to the Levi's, at the least and fully indoctrinating/husking the entire galaxy at once at the most.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Demon560 wrote...

What's it really matter the reapers are stopped in the end, no matter what you do, either in this cycle or the next.

Maybe I'm jaded but I only care about my galaxy, not the primitives who take over for us.

DrGunjah wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
What's the worst case scenario, everyone dies? Doesn't stop Refuse anyway, so...

No the worst case scenario is something like synthesis and since we don't know if holoboy tells the truth about what which option does it's probably better to do nothing and let everyone die. There are worse things than death.

Your fear paranoia is completely irrational.

"There are worse thing than death" ... irrelevant! We know what the Reapers' goal is, so if this is a trick, it's not going to deviate away from that very simple goal: we get harvested.

Which, again, Refuse is already content on allowing to happen.

If you think they're secretly plotting to turn us into some kind of tentacle monsters or something for eternity, just for lulz, you're so scared s***less about the situation it's not even funny.

[Xilizhra]

To keep Shepard away from the CONTROL PANEL near Anderson.

That only worked to open the arms; it wouldn't work to turn on the Crucible.

1) If Shepard picks Control - Shepard starts speaking an awful lot like Sovereign and Harbinger, the Reapers still exist and can resume eating people at any moment someone refuses to give Liara free stuff and special treatment...

Ah, yes, because they were all about being guardians of the many and defending the galaxy, weren't they?

[wright1978]

Can't stand control. Shep dies and his AI progeny acts as galactic dictator with the reapers as its muscle.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

This is a prime example of meta-gaming.

At the point where one is originally listening to Ghostie, there is no reason to believe it's telling you the truth.
1) It pulls Shepard away from a control panel in order to
2) have Shepard perform one of three actions, each of which are destructive to the mechanism.
3) Its self description conflicts with what the audience knew of Sovereign.
4) Its described motive conflicts with what the audience knew of the Reapers.

1.) If the catalyst really did activate the elevator, then he actually helped. The control panel wasn't going to do squat, it only controls the Citadel. He has to activate the Crucible.
2.) We know how the mechanism is supposed to work.
3.) Our impression of Sovereign was obviously wrong.
4.) No it doesn't. First of all, we didn't know what their goal was in the first place, so it can't conflict anything. Second, Rannoch Reaper was foreshadowing of this.

With so many problems in its dialog, why did you believe taking its suggestion to kill yourself would result in anything other than your own death?

Because there aren't "so many problems in its dialogue."

[Xilizhra]

wright1978 wrote...

Can't stand control. Shep dies and his AI progeny acts as galactic dictator with the reapers as its muscle.

And yet, no one else dies. The price is worth it.

[DrGunjah]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Catalyst doesn't think like an organic. It has no emotional attachment to its plan. If it realizes the plan won't work anymore, it'll switch to a new one without regret. That might count as "insane" if an organic was doing it, but not here.

How do you know that? Even Legion conceals his intentions towards shepard several times to get what he wants and he is far less advanced.
And can you please explain why on earth the kid activates that elevator into the beam chamber when you have low EMS and destroy is the only choice? Destroy is by no means a solution from his point of view. That just doesn't make any sense if destroy is not a trap.

[wright1978]

Xilizhra wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Can't stand control. Shep dies and his AI progeny acts as galactic dictator with the reapers as its muscle.

And yet, no one else dies. The price is worth it.

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Xilizhra wrote...
That only worked to open the arms; it wouldn't work to turn on the Crucible.

We don't know that; Shep passed out and face planted before searching it.

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, yes, because they were all about being guardians of the many and defending the galaxy, weren't they?

My joke was, as soon as someone does something that would ****** off Shepard, the Shreap-a-lyst could go on doing the same thing with the same goal as the Reapers had before. Absolute power?

[Xilizhra]

How do you know that? Even Legion conceals his intentions towards shepard several times to get what he wants and he is far less advanced.
And can you please explain why on earth the kid activates that elevator into the beam chamber when you have low EMS and destroy is the only choice? Destroy is by no means a solution from his point of view. That just doesn't make any sense if destroy is not a trap.

The Catalyst perceives Destroy as a solution. Probably because it wants to wipe the slate clean of synthetics, as opposed to some cycle defeating the Reapers conventionally and leaving all of the current ones around. The Catalyst is trying to cut its losses.

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

[Urazz]

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

Yate wrote...
I don't know why everyone is like DON'T TRUST CATALYST, guys, he invited you to his room and told you everything about his plans. Why would he do that?

To keep Shepard away from the CONTROL PANEL near Anderson.

1) If Shepard picks Control - Shepard starts speaking an awful lot like Sovereign and Harbinger, the Reapers still exist and can resume eating people at any moment someone refuses to give Liara free stuff and special treatment...
2) If Destroy, it's not impossible that not all Reapers/synthetics were reached/destroyed.
3) Its goal appears to be to get people to accept Synthesis, leaving synthetics vulnerable to the Levi's, at the least and fully indoctrinating/husking the entire galaxy at once at the most.

For Number 2.  Yes it might not get all Reapers and other synthetics but it would get the vast majority of the reapers and the Reapers wouldn't have the numbers to be a major threat anymore.  Remember the major advantage the reapers had was their more advanced technology and their numbers.

[wright1978]

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

Think you'll find history is full of examples of people choosing freedom over oppression, even at the cost of their lives.

[FOX216BC]

Xilizhra wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Can't stand control. Shep dies and his AI progeny acts as galactic dictator with the reapers as its muscle.

And yet, no one else dies. The price is worth it.

the price is to high
"Guardian of the many"  this is just a impossible thing to do/be.

This won't end well.
Synthesis and control, the future generations will pay for your ignorance.

[Xilizhra]

wright1978 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

Think you'll find history is full of examples of people choosing freedom over oppression, even at the cost of their lives.

Only when it reaches certain levels of oppression. Very often, people will accept oppression, especially if they feel that they benefit from it.

[Reth Shepherd]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

m2iCodeJockey wrote...

4) Its described motive conflicts with what the audience knew of the Reapers.

4.) No it doesn't. First of all, we didn't know what their goal was in the first place, so it can't conflict anything. Second, Rannoch Reaper was foreshadowing of this.

Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They mere found them - the legacy of my kind.

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.

Your words are as empty as your future. I am the Vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over...

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

He's the over-arching directing intelligence of the foe we have been opposing since Day 1. There is no reason why he would do this unless the above is true.

No reason? The reason is very simple: your needs are aligned. His solution doesn't work anymore, so he needs a new one. You need to stop the harvesting cycles. All of the options do that.

Also, there's nothing to indicate he can just stop on a whim. His creators were the ultimate galactic control freaks, so I doubt they gave him the power to just not do his job - his actions need to work toward his mandate in some way.

Also, how is it at all preferrable to have him just "shut off" than carrying out Destroy/Control yourself? The loss of the catalyst won't destroy the Reapers. For all we know they'll still survive and losing control will confuse them, making them even worse than before.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

FOX216BC wrote...

the price is to high
"Guardian of the many"  this is just a impossible thing to do/be.

This won't end well.
Synthesis and control, the future generations will pay for your ignorance.

Ah yes, the "I read about something like this in a sci-fi novel, it didn't end well" argument.

We have dismissed that claim.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Reth Shepherd wrote...

Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they chose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They mere found them - the legacy of my kind.

Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world. You cannot escape your doom.

Your words are as empty as your future. I am the Vanguard of your destruction. This exchange is over...

A good argument is "say/show/mean." You stopped at "say," as many others on this site do.

When it comes down to this, one can easily use this to support ME3's ending being valid. Easily. Since ME2, we've learned that "destruction" =/= "complete extinction" ... to the Reapers. The rest of  it? Not contradictory to 3.

Nothing to see here.

[hukbum]

Xilizhra wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

Think you'll find history is full of examples of people choosing freedom over oppression, even at the cost of their lives.

Only when it reaches certain levels of oppression. Very often, people will accept oppression, especially if they feel that they benefit from it.

GodShep will be there for ever. How are the chances that this level of opression will be reached in a "for ever"-timescale?
Someone will pay for it. At some point someone will disagree with GodShep. And control is only funny, if you stay to agree with the one in control. If you don't ...

Ever wondered what the child wanted to say with "you will loose everything"? The galaxy will change arround GodShep, new civilization, new ideas everything will change - and she/he will be stuck to the agenda: Protect everyone at any cost.
If you choose control you can say one thing for sure: There will be casualties.

[m2iCodeJockey]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
1.) If the catalyst really did activate the elevator, then he actually helped. The control panel wasn't going to do squat, it only controls the Citadel. He has to activate the Crucible.
2.) We know how the mechanism is supposed to work.
3.) Our impression of Sovereign was obviously wrong.
4.) No it doesn't. First of all, we didn't know what their goal was in the first place, so it can't conflict anything. Second, Rannoch Reaper was foreshadowing of this.
5) Because there aren't "so many problems in its dialogue."

1) There is no reason for Ghostie to do anything unless Shepard is a threat (control panel) or it serves Ghostie's goal (Synthesis.)
2) We don't know sh** about the mechanism before blasting/breaking part of it: that's meta-gaming.
3) There's no reason for Sovereign to attack the Citadel if Ghostie lived there and had control of it.
4) If Tali is an admiral and Koris was saved, the Rannoch Reaper's dialog is nonsense. It only makes sense if Shepard had to chose either Geth or Quarians not both.
From my POV, the Rannoch Reaper did not foreshadow anything.
5) With Leviathan installed, the Levi say they don't know what it's doing but, it is not accomplishing the task they gave it. Later, it says "I am just carrying out their directive." Which one is right?

The answer to you original question is: Not everyone had the same POV as you. Testing Ghostie's dialog against Sovereign's speech alone, it did not pass the smell test.

edit: Thanks for Sovereign speech, Reth.

Modifié par m2iCodeJockey, 17 octobre 2012 - 04:39 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Xilizhra wrote...
The Catalyst doesn't think like an organic. It has no emotional attachment to its plan. If it realizes the plan won't work anymore, it'll switch to a new one without regret. That might count as "insane" if an organic was doing it, but not here.

Except he didn't. He needs us for some reason.

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
No reason? The reason is very simple: your needs are aligned. His solution doesn't work anymore, so he needs a new one. You need to stop the harvesting cycles. All of the options do that.

Also, there's nothing to indicate he can just stop on a whim. His creators were the ultimate galactic control freaks, so I doubt they gave him the power to just not do his job - his actions need to work toward his mandate in some way.

Also, how is it at all preferrable to have him just "shut off" than carrying out Destroy/Control yourself? The loss of the catalyst won't destroy the Reapers. For all we know they'll still survive and losing control will confuse them, making them even worse than before.

No. Shut EVERYTHING off. Him, the Reapers, the husks, the whole shebang. Or get them all to kill each other. He can do that. He controls them. Simple.

[Xilizhra]

Ever wondered what the child wanted to say with "you will loose everything"? The galaxy will change arround GodShep, new civilization, new ideas everything will change - and she/he will be stuck to the agenda: Protect everyone at any cost.
If you choose control you can say one thing for sure: There will be casualties.

Fewer than there would be, I suspect, without Control.