435 réponses à ce sujet

[thearbiter1337]

As a Refuser (Keep in mind non-metagaming) 

-I won't even trust the Catalyst as he is telling me he is the Reaper Overlord 

Control:
I just made a guy kill himself as i told him Dead Reapers=Best Reapers

Starbrat is telling me to go grab on some 20000 watt handles to control the Reapers thus lack of trust 

Dead Reapers=Best Reapers again

Synthesis 

Catalyst telling me jumping in a beam somehow prefects everyone 

Again someone with the same idea i made him kill him self 

Your just changing everyone,everything and allowing the Reapers to walk free

Destroy 

Starbrat is just like "Yo man go destroy my toys m'kay?" 

I have to **** on Legions grave and basically tell the Geth "Yo man i know you wanted to be people and interact with Organics but Starbrat is telling me the only way to kill Reapers is to kill you too"

[Almostfaceman]

PinkysPain wrote...

As for why I didn't pick control, cause I knew the little **** was lying and whatever remained of me would be thoroughly indoctrinated ... from a metagame respect I was right, since the reapers didn't fly straight into the sun towing the citadel behind them.

This is full of win. Just chock full of winning goodness.

[wright1978]

Xilizhra wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

Think you'll find history is full of examples of people choosing freedom over oppression, even at the cost of their lives.

Only when it reaches certain levels of oppression. Very often, people will accept oppression, especially if they feel that they benefit from it.

Some people do indeed accept and turn a blind eye to oppression.
Others will actively fight it.

[Shinnyshin]

I'm...unclear why someone has to be right or wrong here. All four options are things that perfectly rational people COULD choose based on the motivations of their Shepard. Each of us, I'd imagine, had slightly different definitions of success and failure, different views of the choices.

I've played several VERY different Shepards through the entire trilogy. They took different choices at the end and all three made the "right" choice for them. Or as right a choice as they could have made, given the circumstances.

Refusal is perfectly reasonable and logical. It's based on parameters, measurements, assessments that are totally different than Synthetic or Control. Why...would you even argue that the choice, a perfectly valid one, is "stupid"? Do you know better than the other player who their character is, what they believe, and what they care about?

That people should even have to start offering a bio of their Shepard to justify this decision is just absurd.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:32 .

[dreman9999]

dreamgazer wrote...

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Power does not inheritly corrupt. That would mean everyone with power is corrupt.

[dreman9999]

LucasShark wrote...

... Because it leads to an eternal Shepard-run police state?

Why? You Shepard cam choose to run thing how they want..That does not mean it has to be a poic state. You can let all advance life rule themselves.

[Noelemahc]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
D'you ever try and stop the Reapers? Make them just stop what they're doing instead of Destroying/Synthesizing with them? Just pick Control ya dummy! Why didn't you think of that??

Because Iron Savior Fallacy. Once Shepard is integrated into the Reaper Collective, his thought processes will be using the same hardware that made the faulty conclusions, and much like the Geth Heretics, might eventually make them as well. The game itself actually covers the philosophy behind this, when Donnely and Adams argue whether EDI should be viewed as a separate entity from the Normandy or not. If your Shep agrees that we are more than just the sum of our memories, you can't pick Control (esp. if you're not a Paragon).

Also, Light is Not Good/Dark is Not Evil. Paragon Control mind end up in a police state, Renegade Control - in an all-out jihad. There is no option for Suicide Control (a.k.a. "Would you kindly take the Omega-4 relay and jump into the centre of the galaxy?"), which WOULD have been an acceptable alternative to Refusal. Sadly, BW did not provide such an option (although Paragon Control theoretically makes it possible, the voiceover makes it highly clear that's NOT Shepard-Catalyst's intention).

[dreman9999]

PinkysPain wrote...

As for why I didn't pick control, cause I knew the little **** was lying and whatever remained of me would be thoroughly indoctrinated ... from a metagame respect I was right, since the reapers didn't fly straight into the sun towing the citadel behind them.

He sure was lieing when he said we had no way of beating the reapers with out the crucible....Ooop no he was not.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:37 .

[DrGunjah]

dreman9999 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Power does not inheritly corrupt. That would mean everyone with power is corrupt.

the world you live in proves it.

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

As for why I didn't pick control, cause I knew the little **** was lying and whatever remained of me would be thoroughly indoctrinated ... from a metagame respect I was right, since the reapers didn't fly straight into the sun towing the citadel behind them.

He sure was lieing when he said we had no way of beating the reapers with out the crucible....Ooop no he was not.

Sorry, my Shepard wasn't able to freeze time to compare the four different ending videos and make a decision based off of what would happen in the distant future.  Was that playing in a hidden room on the Citadel?

Also...why does saying "my forces will crush you" mean that he's telling the absolute truth and wants to be your best friend?  Some PCs would take the risk.  Others wouldn't.  And I'm not even sure which is the riskier route.

P.S. For all my refuse-Shep run knew, assenting to control is exactly how you become the...brain of a "human reaper".  There was plenty of evidence that they were constructing one on the citadel from all the harvested bodies and beaming up.  There were many things that could go wrong with the three choices.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:47 .

[dreman9999]

Noelemahc wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
D'you ever try and stop the Reapers? Make them just stop what they're doing instead of Destroying/Synthesizing with them? Just pick Control ya dummy! Why didn't you think of that??

Because Iron Savior Fallacy. Once Shepard is integrated into the Reaper Collective, his thought processes will be using the same hardware that made the faulty conclusions, and much like the Geth Heretics, might eventually make them as well. The game itself actually covers the philosophy behind this, when Donnely and Adams argue whether EDI should be viewed as a separate entity from the Normandy or not. If your Shep agrees that we are more than just the sum of our memories, you can't pick Control (esp. if you're not a Paragon).

Also, Light is Not Good/Dark is Not Evil. Paragon Control mind end up in a police state, Renegade Control - in an all-out jihad. There is no option for Suicide Control (a.k.a. "Would you kindly take the Omega-4 relay and jump into the centre of the galaxy?"), which WOULD have been an acceptable alternative to Refusal. Sadly, BW did not provide such an option (although Paragon Control theoretically makes it possible, the voiceover makes it highly clear that's NOT Shepard-Catalyst's intention).

You clearly don't no why the catalyst did what it did.  

1. Why it did what it did is because of it programming..


Leviathan: The intelligence was envisioned as another tool
Shepard:And now we all pay the price of you mistake
Leviathan: There was no mistake. It still serves it's perpose

And on it's programing aka perpose...
And on it's programing aka perpose...



Leviathan:  To counter this problem we creater an intelligence with the mandate to perserve life at any cost.

2. Why it di what it did is because it's a shackled AI.

3. The catalyst also has no morality. It has no concept of it. It is just a machine doing what it's programmed to do.

The Shepard AI is not shackled nor or programmed the same way as the catalyst. The Shepard AI is the thought and memories. That mean it had a morality and understanding of organic. If fact it goes onto say that it want all to have a voice. It's not the same as the catalyst.
It's you . And being you, you dicide how things are done.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

As for why I didn't pick control, cause I knew the little **** was lying and whatever remained of me would be thoroughly indoctrinated ... from a metagame respect I was right, since the reapers didn't fly straight into the sun towing the citadel behind them.

He sure was lieing when he said we had no way of beating the reapers with out the crucible....Ooop no he was not.

Sorry, my Shepard wasn't able to freeze time to compare the four different ending videos and make a decision based off of what would happen in the distant future.  Was that playing in a hidden room on the Citadel?

Also...why does saying "my forces will crush you" mean that he's telling the absolute truth and wants to be your best friend?  Some PCs would take the risk.  Others wouldn't.  And I'm not even sure which is the riskier route.

He tells you literaly your forces have no way to win. The entire game, even the codex, goes out of it's way to tell you the reapers have over whilming numbers.
Sorry , it is not lieing...Andthe ending, when picking refuse, proves it.
And not every choice you make is going to have all the time for you to make. No matter how you cut it...Thereis truth in what he is saying. That does not mean you have to accept it.

[dreman9999]

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Power does not inheritly corrupt. That would mean everyone with power is corrupt.

the world you live in proves it.

Sure , every government in the world is polic state.

Modifié par dreman9999, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:52 .

[dreman9999]

wright1978 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If that's your opinion fine. As far as i'm concerned no price is worth it when freedom is what is being sacrificed.

A fine opinion if it's just your life, but most people would choose life over freedom.

Think you'll find history is full of examples of people choosing freedom over oppression, even at the cost of their lives.

Only when it reaches certain levels of oppression. Very often, people will accept oppression, especially if they feel that they benefit from it.

Some people do indeed accept and turn a blind eye to oppression.
Others will actively fight it.

Letting evenyone die is fighting?

[dreman9999]

thearbiter1337 wrote...

As a Refuser (Keep in mind non-metagaming) 

-I won't even trust the Catalyst as he is telling me he is the Reaper Overlord 

Control:
I just made a guy kill himself as i told him Dead Reapers=Best Reapers

Starbrat is telling me to go grab on some 20000 watt handles to control the Reapers thus lack of trust 

Dead Reapers=Best Reapers again

Synthesis 

Catalyst telling me jumping in a beam somehow prefects everyone 

Again someone with the same idea i made him kill him self 

Your just changing everyone,everything and allowing the Reapers to walk free

Destroy 

Starbrat is just like "Yo man go destroy my toys m'kay?" 

I have to **** on Legions grave and basically tell the Geth "Yo man i know you wanted to be people and interact with Organics but Starbrat is telling me the only way to kill Reapers is to kill you too"

Note that he was not lieing about the results of refuse.

[Seival]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why don't Refusers pick Control? 

Power comes with responsibility. And absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Refuser-Shepard clearly isn't ready for absolute responsibility... And still responsible for the deaths of the trillions of people, which Refuser-Shepard just Refuse to admit in last seconds of his life.

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...
He tells you literaly your forces have no way to win. The entire game, even the codex, goes out of it's way to tell you the reapers have over whilming numbers.
Sorry , it is not lieing...Andthe ending, when picking refuse, proves it.
And not every choice you make is going to have all the time for you to make. No matter how you cut it...Thereis truth in what he is saying. That does not mean you have to accept it.

I'm...not sure how to respond to this.  You don't seem to be reading what any of us are saying and are brutally smacking down....points we aren't making.

If I the player, Sam, were to sit down and look at all the possible endings...  If I did the research, spoiled the DLC, and read the book that's probably going to come out, well...I'd probably decide Synthesis or Control is the best option.

Shepard isn't me.  He doesn't know what I know.  Making decisions for your character because of YOUR knowledge is called metagaming.  When Kaiden/Ashley got beaten up at the beginning of the game, I could have not given a damn because there's no way a healthy former squadmate/love interest would die like that before the very end of  act 2 because that's how stories tend to be structured.

That's not how I chose to play this series.  You keep arguing that the best decision for PLAYERS to make is control.  I'll probably give you that.  But it's not always the best decision for our Shepard to make, at least not for people who care about that sort of thing. 

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[dreman9999]

Seival wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why don't Refusers pick Control? 

Power comes with responsibility. And absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Refuser-Shepard clearly isn't ready for absolute responsibility... And still responsible for the deaths of the trillions of people, which Refuser-Shepard just Refuse to admit in last seconds of his life.

I'm sorry?

You already are responsible for trillions since ME1. The issue on hand is the life of trillion or your ego. Which is more important?

[DrGunjah]

dreman9999 wrote...

DrGunjah wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Power does not inheritly corrupt. That would mean everyone with power is corrupt.

the world you live in proves it.

Sure , every government in the world is polic state.

that was not the statement. the statement was "power corrupts".
If you can't see the corruption in the world or how power has corrupted people in history, I can't help you.
Though this is not the right place here to discuss this topic, so I won't make any further comments about it.

[dreman9999]

Shinnyshin wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
He tells you literaly your forces have no way to win. The entire game, even the codex, goes out of it's way to tell you the reapers have over whilming numbers.
Sorry , it is not lieing...Andthe ending, when picking refuse, proves it.
And not every choice you make is going to have all the time for you to make. No matter how you cut it...Thereis truth in what he is saying. That does not mean you have to accept it.

I'm...not sure how to respond to this.  You don't seem to be reading what any of us are saying and are brutally smacking down....points we aren't making.

If I the player, Sam, were to sit down and look at all the possible endings...  If I did the research, spoiled the DLC, and read the book that's probably going to come out, well...I'd probably decide Synthesis or Control is the best option.

Shepard isn't me.  He doesn't know what I know.  Making decisions for your character because of YOUR knowledge is called metagaming.  When Kaiden/Ashley got beaten up at the beginning of the game, I could have not given a damn because there's no way a healthy former squadmate/love interest would die like that before the end of  act 3 because that's how stories tend to be structured.

That's not how I chose to play this series.  You keep arguing that the best decision for PLAYERS to make is control.  I'll probably give you that.  But it's not always the best decision for our Shepard to make, at least not for people who care about that sort of thing. 

This is a rpg. You are Shepard. You choose how he acts, thinks, his beliefs, and moraly. You are Shepard. Please don't say that bs that you are not.

What he /she does is up to you.

Also, I not say control is the best choice to make. I'm saying it's the choice that has the lease sacrifices to make. Even my mean Shepard did not pick control. I'm just say the worse choice to make is refuse. All I'm saying is that if you can't kill off the geth, bite the bullet can carry the gallexy on you back...That better then letting the entire galexy die becasue you can't get over your ego.

[DrGunjah]

Seival wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why don't Refusers pick Control? 

Power comes with responsibility. And absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Refuser-Shepard clearly isn't ready for absolute responsibility... And still responsible for the deaths of the trillions of people, which Refuser-Shepard just Refuse to admit in last seconds of his life.

"I know I can control them shepard!!!"

[Seival]

dreman9999 wrote...

Seival wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why don't Refusers pick Control? 

Power comes with responsibility. And absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Refuser-Shepard clearly isn't ready for absolute responsibility... And still responsible for the deaths of the trillions of people, which Refuser-Shepard just Refuse to admit in last seconds of his life.

I'm sorry?

You already are responsible for trillions since ME1. The issue on hand is the life of trillion or your ego. Which is more important?

Yes, you already are responsible for trillions since ME1. And somehow Refuser-Shepard forgets about that to feed his own (and only his own) pride. Such person never was and never will be ready for absolute responsibility...

... In short: if you already have some responsibility it doesn't mean you are really ready for it. Only your actions will show if you are ready or not.

[Seival]

DrGunjah wrote...

Seival wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Why don't Refusers pick Control? 

Power comes with responsibility. And absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Refuser-Shepard clearly isn't ready for absolute responsibility... And still responsible for the deaths of the trillions of people, which Refuser-Shepard just Refuse to admit in last seconds of his life.

"I know I can control them shepard!!!"

"Eternal. Infinite. Immortal."

Modifié par Seival, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:14 .

[M Hedonist]

This thread is ridiculous.

[Shinnyshin]

dreman9999 wrote...

This is a rpg. You are Shepard. You choose how he acts, thinks, his beliefs, and moraly. You are Shepard. Please don't say that bs that you are not.

What he /she does is up to you.

Also, I not say control is the best choice to make. I'm saying it's the choice that has the lease sacrifices to make. Even my mean Shepard did not pick control. I'm just say the worse choice to make is refuse. All I'm saying is that if you can't kill off the geth, bite the bullet can carry the gallexy on you back...That better then letting the entire galexy die becasue you can't get over your ego.

You really seem to be missing the point.  Or possibly trolling, but I'd hate to throw around words like that if you're genuinely confused.

Yes, I control what sort of person my Shepard is.  But this is VERY clear: Shepard is not necessarily me.  Commander Shepard is not Sam, the gamer with access to all the plot tips, spoilers, and foreknowledge on what the best/worst decisions are.  Shepard is a character I've constructed with as consistent or inconsistent beliefs as I choose.

To make character decisions because of player knowledge is called metagaming.  It's something some people do, and that's fine.  But many, many people make decisions from the perspective of their characters.  Some people have a take-no-prisoners, super-renegade, fight-to-the-death Shepard.  Would you expect that character to choose "Control" or "Synthesize"?

It seems you have no separation between player and character, which is prompting this...vehement assertion that a decision is "right" or "wrong" because of the cutscene that follows.  That's fine.  But remember that not everyone operates like that.  In fact, many, many RPG players carefully avoid what you're doing.  Picking the "wrong" decision because it's the right decision for your game sometimes hurts like a gut-punch--ESPECIALLY when we intentionally deny ourselves good quest rewards.  And we know.  But we have to do it.

Modifié par Shinnyshin, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:18 .