13 réponses à ce sujet

[batlin]

The story of DA2 falls apart in a lot of very basic ways. First, it doesn't have a basic three-act structure. Sure, the Deeproads, Qunari, and Mages vs. Templars portions of the game are each called "acts" by a lot of people, but by the writing definition they are not. Each "act in DA2 is an insular story that are related to each other only indirectly. How the three-act structure is supposed to work is as follows:

Act 1 is meant to introduce the Lead and his/her world and present a problem the Lead must overcome, which would bring the Lead into the second act.

Act 2 is comprised of the Leads efforts to overcome the obstacle(s) presented in act 1. At the end of act 2, the Lead is presented with a situation that makes the final conflict with the problem imminent and inescapable.

Act 3, of course, has the climax of the story and the resolution.

Dragon Age 2, of course, fails to follow this. I suppose you could describe this writing as "episodic", but even in episodic stories there is one clear and definite goal each episode is working toward. And the problem introduced at the beginning of the game is solved in the middle of act 1, so immediately there's a question of why the Hawkes don't return home as soon as the Blight is over. This is why some basic tenents of structure really should be followed, especially in a fantasy game.

I have seen the argument that it's ok for the story of DA2 to be disjointed and insular because the game is actually a personal story for Hawke. This implies Hawke grows as a character and leaves the story a different person than he/she was to begin with. This is not possible when Hawke's dialogue is restricted to "peaceful", "dickish", and "smarmy punk". Even if you were to roleplay Hawke's character arc as best you could, like making him/her go from dickish to smarmy, there's nothing within the narrative that would actually force Hawke to have any sort of arc to begin with, so no matter how you look at it, Dragon Age 2 is most certainly not meant to be a personal story.

Furthermore on Hawke's character, Hawke is reactive and complacent. Only when problems become full-blown does the "Champion of Kirkwall" actually try to solve them. It's really very annoying to supposedly be in contro of a character who will not let you investigate, say, a Qunari occupation just because the Qunari refuse to tell you why they're there. To present some contrast, if Hawke were the protagonist in Origins instead of the Warden, we would have had to sit around for years before the Dwarves solved their leadership dispute by themselves.

I generally like Bioware's writing. I have no idea what could have possibly went wrong with this game. It may be too much to hope, but I would really like a writer to explain what the heck happened in the writing process of this, because the answer must be fascinating.

Modifié par batlin, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Asides from that, Act 1 also forced you to complete the mage and templar quests even if you raised 50,000 gold for the expedition into the Deep Roads which completely destroyed the narrative because the whole story of Act 1 was about going into the Deep Roads and not the scenario of the mages vs templar (which got introduced to you regardless of if you completed the quests or not). Those quests should have been optional and avoidable but instead we are forced to break Karl out of The Chantry killing many templars in the process (which again destroys the personal story narrative if you're playing a pro-templar) and we're forced to help that priest woman escort that Qunari mage out of the city.

Now since Hawke's goal in Act 1 is to raise 50,000 gold why then are we forced to complete these quests if we gain the money? This completely destroyed the plot of DA2 early on for me and showed that the "choices" you have are just an illusion in what is really a linear story paced game. One could argue that these quests were introducing you to the main conflict which would occur later on but you were already introduced to this at the beginning of the game and should have had the freedom to turn down these quests in Act 1.

The main problem of DA2's narrative isn't just the plot holes and inconsistent transition between acts but also the fact that there's no middle ground or real choices to be made. You hope for a fascinating answer which could be satisfactory but the real answer is that the plot is like this because the game was rushed and the dumbing down also contributed to the disjointed linear plot.

Now I haven't played Mass Effect 3 but I hear the plot has a similar structure where there are little meaningful choices to be made and where the narrative is linear. If this is the direction that Bioware is going in (as these two games give evidence to) then will Dragon Age 3 be any different? Bioware are so dead set on having a "cinematic" experience which could mean we'll never get to experience a plot like the one from Origins ever again from them which is a shame really.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:32 .

[thats1evildude]

I don't know why you're married to the idea that the story must follow a three-act structure. The three "acts" really just serve as highlights in Hawke's story and serve to stretch the timeline over a ten-year timeline.

Dragon Age 2 is more akin to, say, A Song of Ice and Fire or The Dragonbone Chair series in that it follows the plot threads of mulitple characters over the course of a story until they finally converge in the climax.

batlin wrote...

Dragon Age 2, of course, fails to follow this. I suppose you could describe this writing as "episodic", but even in episodic stories there is one clear and definite goal each episode is working toward. And the problem introduced at the beginning of the game is solved in the middle of act 1, so immediately there's a question of why the Hawkes don't return home as soon as the Blight is over.

That assumes the Hawke family remains in Kirkwall because they must. They don't. There simply isn't any point in returning to Ferelden, as their home in Lothering was completely destroyed during the Blight. And even then, Hawke makes it abundantly clear that s/he no longer considers Ferelden their home.

In Kirkwall, Hawke is offered the opportunity to regain his family's noble status and to financially secure his family's future through the expedition. What would be the point in leaving?

batlin wrote...

I have seen the argument that it's ok for the story of DA2 to be disjointed and insular because the game is actually a personal story for Hawke. This implies Hawke grows as a character and leaves the story a different person than he/she was to begin with. This is not possible when Hawke's dialogue is restricted to "peaceful", "dickish", and "smarmy punk".

Your assumption being that dialogue tone was somehow indicative of characterization. Ultimately, character development is the responsibility of the player as he/she determines how Hawke reacts to different events.

In any case, Hawke's story follows a definite arc as he begins as a poor refugee in Act 1, ascends to the nobility in Act 2 and then finally becomes a major political figure in Kirkwall in Act 3 with his declaration as Champion.

batlin wrote...

Furthermore on Hawke's character, Hawke is reactive and complacent. Only when problems become full-blown does the "Champion of Kirkwall" actually try to solve them. It's really very annoying to supposedly be in contro of a character who will not let you investigate, say, a Qunari occupation just because the Qunari refuse to tell you why they're there.

I'm at a loss to come up with anything that Hawke could have done without forehand knowledge of the game's events. There's no way of knowing that Isabela stole the Tome of Koslun or that Orsino was aiding a serial killer. There's no way of knowing that Meredith purchased the lyrium idol, and there was no way to predict that Anders intended to blow up the Chantry.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 octobre 2012 - 05:38 .

[batlin]

thats1evildude wrote...

I don't know why you're married to the idea that the story must follow a three-act structure. The three "acts" really just serve as highlights in Hawke's story and serve to stretch the timeline over a ten-year timeline.

And the story suffers a great deal because they have next to nothing to do with each other and therefore no tension is built up between the acts. There is a REASON the three-act structure has been around since the time of Atristotle.

Dragon Age 2 is more akin to, say, A Song of Ice and Fire or The Dragonbone Chair series in that it follows the plot threads of mulitple characters over the course of a story until they finally converge in the climax.

Did you write this with a straight face? No, throughout all the events in DA2 you only ever follow the character of Hawke. And in Ice and Fire, every major event is a natural progression from events that we read beforehand. Hawke's excursion in the Deeproads has nothing to do with the Qunari invasion. Likewise neither of those have anything to do with the Templar/Mage war. That is why the story is considered disjointed.

That assumes the Hawke family remains in Kirkwall because they must. They don't. There simply isn't any point in returning to Ferelden, as their home in Lothering was completely destroyed during the Blight. And even then, Hawke makes it abundantly clear that s/he no longer considers Ferelden their home.

When does Hawke make this clear? As one possible choice among three possible answers to "How do you like Kirkwall?" Forgive me if returning to Ferelden seems like a really good idea in the face of a clearly hostile and tyrannical government where mages are heavily persecuted (more so than in Ferelden), where there's clear and present threats of revolt and a Qunari uprising. Especially since you or your sister is a blood mage.

In Kirkwall, Hawke is offered the opportunity to regain his family's noble status and to financially secure his family's future through the expedition. What would be the point in leaving?

Hawke has to regain his/her nobility from the ground-up. There's no special opportunity to do that in Kirkwall than there would have been in Denerim, or some other Ferelden city.

Your assumption being that dialogue tone was somehow indicative of characterization. Ultimately, character development is the responsibility of the player as he/she determines how Hawke reacts to different events.

And, again, there's nothing within the narrative that would actually spark such a character arc. Any kind of arc that may be present for your Hawke is an imagined one.

In any case, Hawke's story follows a definite arc as he begins as a poor refugee in Act 1, ascends to the nobility in Act 2 and then finally becomes a major political figure in Kirkwall in Act 3 with his declaration as Champion.

That's not a character arc...that's like saying Charles Foster Kane's arc in Citizen Kane was him going from a poor kid to a media mogul. There's a tad more to a character arc than a change in social status.

I'm at a loss to come up with anything that Hawke could have done without forehand knowledge of the game's events. There's no way of knowing that Isabela stole the Tome of Koslun or that Orsino was aiding a serial killer. There's no way of knowing that Meredith purchased the lyrium idol, and there was no way to predict that Anders intended to blow up the Chantry.

Are you kidding me here?

Anders: "Hawke, I know I'm an unhinged apostate abomination who favors violent retaliation against the Chantry and has on more than one occasion almost murdered an innocent person because I got upset, but I need you to trust me here: You need to get me into the Chantry so that I can do something that I can't tell you about. Deal?"

Also, how about just investigating what the Qunari wanted? Forget finding the Qunari book, how about trying to find out what the hell they were looking for to begin with?

Hawke is reactionary and complacent. There is no argument against this.

Modifié par batlin, 21 octobre 2012 - 02:06 .

[thats1evildude]

batlin wrote...

And the story suffers a great deal because they have next to nothing to do with each other and therefore no tension is built up between the acts. There is a REASON the three-act structure has been around since the time of Atristotle.

On the contrary, there's quite a few inter-locking events within DA2's storyline; one event begets each other, until what you have is a series of dominos. .

The three-act structure is a pretty good model for stories to follow. But it's not a golden rule. Quite a lot of good fiction isn't seperated into three acts. DAO did not follow a three-act structure.

batlin wrote...

Did you write this with a straight face? No, throughout all the events in DA2 you only ever follow the character of Hawke. And in Ice and Fire, every major event is a natural progression from events that we read beforehand. Hawke's excursion in the Deeproads has nothing to do with the Qunari invasion. Likewise neither of those have anything to do with the Templar/Mage war. That is why the story is considered disjointed.

Shoooore did!

Hawke is the POV character because this is an action RPG and it would be monstrously difficult to tell the story from multiple viewpoints. Nonetheless, the story follows the model of A Song of Ice and Fire in that the tale unfolds through multiple plot threads. But it's all connected.

When Hawke meets Anders in Act 1, he aids him in an encounter that would have gotten him killed and protects the mage through his wealth and influence through future years. Eventually, Hawke may aid Anders in his bomb plot, but even if he didn't, Hawke's actions ultimately lead to the destruction of the Chantry.

Which would never have happened if Meredith had not taken over as viscount of Kirkwall, which was the result fo the lyrium idol that Hawke recovered in Act 1. And it was only because of Hawke's efforts that the qunari take-over of the city was completely averted.

batlin wrote...

When does Hawke make this clear? As one possible choice among three possible answers to "How do you like Kirkwall?" Forgive me if returning to Ferelden seems like a really good idea in the face of a clearly hostile and tyrannical government where mages are heavily persecuted (more so than in Ferelden), where there's clear and present threats of revolt and a Qunari uprising. Especially since you or your sister is a blood mage.

I think you meant to say "apostate" there. Bethany is not a blood mage.

Hawke is asked a number of times throughout the story — for instance, by Aveline, Varric and Alistair — whether they would return home. The answer is usually "My home is here now."

Do you think Bethany and Hawke never lived in fear of the templars in Ferelden? I can assure you that they did. The templars in Ferelden were just as zealous as those in Kirkwall; they just treated their mages a little better.

No matter where they go, Bethany and a mage Hawke will be hunted in one way or another. In Kirkwall, there is opportunity for a better life.

batlin wrote...

Hawke has to regain his/her nobility from the ground-up. There's no special opportunity to do that in Kirkwall than there would have been in Denerim, or some other Ferelden city.

Ah, ah … Hawke was the heir to the Amells, who were a prominent noble family in Kirkwall. He had no similar claim to such a title in Ferelden.

In Ferelden, Hawke and his family were forced to live on the run, constantly in fear of being found out by the templars. They were not particularly well off, not compared to how Leandra lived growing up.

Within two years of arriving in Kirkwall, Hawke had become a wealthy nobleman and had enough money to set himself and his family up for life. Can you say with a straight face that Kirkwall afforded no opportunities to Hawke?

batlin wrote...

That's not a character arc...that's like saying Charles Foster Kane's arc in Citizen Kane was him going from a poor kid to a media mogul. There's a tad more to a character arc than a change in social status.

Him going from poverty to wealth and recognition WASN'T an important part of his story? News to me. Well, forget all that Rosebud business, then.

batlin wrote...

Anders: "Hawke, I know I'm an unhinged apostate abomination who favors violent retaliation against the Chantry and has on more than one occasion almost murdered an innocent person because I got upset, but I need you to trust me here: You need to get me into the Chantry so that I can do something that I can't tell you about. Deal?"

"OK, Anders, despite the fact that I've known you for years to be an anti-Chantry crusader and haven't reported you to the templars or taken any other action against you in all that time, I intend to kill you on the spot because you're being somewhat vague about your intentions with this fake potion I helped you gather."

Oh, it was obvious that Anders was up to something. But if you're saying that you predicted Anders would BLOW UP THE CHANTRY, I call bulls**t on that.

batlin wrote...

Also, how about just investigating what the Qunari wanted? Forget finding the Qunari book, how about trying to find out what the hell they were looking for to begin with?

It was attempted. And it failed. The Arishok would not say why they were in Kirkwall.

[batlin]

[quote]thats1evildude wrote...

On the contrary, there's quite a few inter-locking events within DA2's storyline; one event begets each other, until what you have is a series of dominos. .[/quote]

Literally the only relevant part of "act" 1 is to "act" 3 is the idol. Absolutely nothing links the two events to the Qunari occupation, and the idol ultimately is not that relevant. Events would have transpired as they had, albeit with less insanity, without the idol. So even saying that the events of act 1 led to the events in act 3 in any way is a big stretch.

[quote]The three-act structure is a pretty good model for stories to follow. But it's not a golden rule. Quite a lot of good fiction isn't seperated into three acts. DAO did not follow a three-act structure.[/quote]
There are a few golden rules a writer really shouldn't break. Like not going through a two thirds of your story without building up any tension for your climax.

[quote]Shoooore did!

Hawke is the POV character because this is an action RPG and it would be monstrously difficult to tell the story from multiple viewpoints. Nonetheless, the story follows the model of A Song of Ice and Fire in that the tale unfolds through multiple plot threads. But it's all connected.[/quote]

Explain to me how the Qunari occupation had anything to do with the events in acts 1 or 3. Explain it to me.

[quote]When Hawke meets Anders in Act 1, he aids him in an encounter that would have gotten him killed and protects the mage through his wealth and influence through future years. Eventually, Hawke may aid Anders in his bomb plot, but even if he didn't, Hawke's actions ultimately lead to the destruction of the Chantry.[/quote]

THAT is a pretty egregious stretch. Anders was living in Kirkwall on his own evading Templars long before he knew Hawke, and do you really think without knowing Hawke Anders would not have been exposed to the Templars' injustices against mages and therefore would not thought to blow up the Chantry? Nope, any connection between Hawke and the Chantry attack are coincidental at best.

[quote]Which would never have happened if Meredith had not taken over as viscount of Kirkwall, which was the result fo the lyrium idol that Hawke recovered in Act 1.[/quote]
Wrooong, Meredith was a tyrant before she got the idol. All the idol did was make her seize power earlier.

[quote]And it was only because of Hawke's efforts that the qunari take-over of the city was completely averted.[/quote]
Which has to do with the obstacles of either act, how?

[quote]Hawke is asked a number of times throughout the story — for instance, by Aveline, Varric and Alistair — whether they would return home. The answer is usually "My home is here now."Nooo, that's an optional answer. You can also choose to say something along the lines of "I hate this place". What makes one option more valid than the others?
[/quote]
[quote]Do you think Bethany and Hawke never lived in fear of the templars in Ferelden? I can assure you that they did. The templars in Ferelden were just as zealous as those in Kirkwall; they just treated their mages a little better.

No matter where they go, Bethany and a mage Hawke will be hunted in one
way or another. In Kirkwall, there is opportunity for a better life.[/quote]

Oh no, don't pretend they're similar. Kirkwall was practically a military state compared to places like Denerim. It's much less safe for an apostate there than in any given Ferelden city. And you know what isn't in Ferelden? A Qunari army that is getting more and more aggrivated and a tyrannical dictator that's clearly mad with power. Meanwhile, all the Hawkes have to their name in Kirkwall is a shack. Give me one good reason why they would consider Kirkwall a better home than Ferelden.

[quote]Ah, ah … Hawke was the heir to the Amells, who were a prominent noble family in Kirkwall. He had no similar claim to such a title in Ferelden.[/quote]
And Hawke's uncle spent everything the Amells had. You're only a "noble" if you have land and money, so being a member of a fallen noble house means exactly nothing. Hawke had no more pull in Kirkwall than he/she would have had in Ferelden.

[quote]In Ferelden, Hawke and his family were forced to live on the run, constantly in fear of being found out by the templars. They were not particularly well off, not compared to how Leandra lived growing up.[/quote]I'm curious, what made you think Ferelden's templars are more gung-ho about tracking down apostates than Kirkwall? I mean, the entire reason Anders was there to begin with was because the place was especially cruel to mages altogether and he wanted to help them. I'm just not understanding where this idea that Kirkwall is somehow more lenient on mages than Ferelden is came from.

[quote]Within two years of arriving in Kirkwall, Hawke had become a wealthy nobleman and had enough money to set himself and his family up for life. Can you say with a straight face that Kirkwall afforded no opportunities to Hawke?[/quote]
Hawke made that money on a Deeproads excursion. There are entrances to the Deeproads everywhere in Thedas. What made the one near Kirkwall so special that the Hawkes had to stick around after the Blight was over?

[quote]Him going from poverty to wealth and recognition WASN'T an important part of his story? News to me. Well, forget all that Rosebud business, then.[/quote]
I would say his deconstruction from an energetic youth with big dreams into a lonely recluse is a tad more important than his career path, yes.

[quote]"OK, Anders, despite the fact that I've known you for years to be an anti-Chantry crusader and haven't reported you to the templars or taken any other action against you in all that time, I intend to kill you on the spot because you're being somewhat vague about your intentions with this fake potion I helped you gather."[/quote]
Way to exaggerate to the point of ridiculousness. How about Hawke insists Anders tell him what he's planning? Threaten to warn the Chantry? Actually warn the Chantry? Investigate what his plans might have been? Oh no, that would be inconvenient for the plot, so Hawke can't do anything about it. Silly me.

[quote]Oh, it was obvious that Anders was up to something. But if you're saying that you predicted Anders would BLOW UP THE CHANTRY, I call bulls**t on that.[/quote]
Tell me honestly: When you played that scene, did you really believe Anders wasn't up to anything nefarious? Obviously you couldn't know specifically what he was planning, but you really couldn't figure out that it wasn't anything good? Be honest.

[quote]It was attempted. And it failed. The Arishok would not say why they were in Kirkwall.[/quote]
"Excuse me, Professor Moriarty, what is your nefarious plan?"

"I'm not telling you anything, Holmes."

"Well Watson, it looks like this case will go unsolved. We gave it our best shot."

Modifié par batlin, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:26 .

[MoogleCoat]

To answer a few questions, The Qunari Occupation was set in act 1 in order to drive up the plot thread of act 2, It was the reason why Isabella was shipped wrecked, and introduced a reason why the Chantry was busy, many of the sisters talk about it during gossip, as well it allows the player to meet the viscount and his son, learning more about structure of Kirkwall and a glimpse of it's political problem. Finally, if they were not introduced in act 1 they would have no relevance during the 2nd act.

Moving on to Act 2. At the end of it, the Viscount is dead. This creates a need for a leader, which Meredith assumes control of quite quickly, leading to her power in Act 3, and while this is just my interpretation, also starts her hate against Hawke with that mini death glare she gives you.

Anders came to Kirkwall in order to save his friend Karl, and I while he was there for a while, he hasn't been there that long, or at least planned to leave, which he states upon asking your help. Anyway, If Hawke didn't come to help him, then Anders would've went to the Chantry alone, and judging from the powers that Anders had while you went into that mission, I doubt he would've made it out alive.
The reason why Hawke keeps him around is because Hawke knows mages are useful, because either his sister was one, or s/he is a mage, not only that but Anders is a Grey Warden, legends and heroes, people who on a daily basis fight Darkspawn, the things that she and her family barely survived against.

Meredith, man she always gets a bad rep, and I don't know why...well okay she went crazy at the end. But that was indeed because of the lyrium idol. While Meredith was strict, there are several times within the acts where she sympathizes with mages or at the very least, you can tell her intention is to keep people safe. During act 1 for example she denies the idea to tranquil every single mage. It's not in till the end of Act 2 and start of act 3 moreso, that you hear whispers about how crazy and out of control Meredith is starting to get. I think the line that makes me think she wasn't that bad and was actually good is "I know, and it breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant. If you cannot tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!"

If during the arrival of Kirkwall you ask the question "Why don't we go somewhere else?" then your sibling will tell you "No. We can't go anywhere else. Also Mom loves this place, and I don't want to make her sad or something, we already lost my Twin, so we're staying." To which you can say "Well I want to ditch my family, but then you would miss the game and well if you could do anything you wanted, the game would never be made. This also makes sense from a story perspective, Hawke, is shown no matter what personality you pick to actually care for his family, ie. Hawke moves in to stop the Templar from killing his sister. So, you do the 1 year in servitude thing, making you stay in Kirkwall, for the year. Now, that your done that, either you or Bethany is being hunted by Templars, Come in Varric to keep you here with his plan, But assume you think the plan is stupid and want to go away anyways. Upon arriving home to pack, Gamlen and your mother are arguing about the inheritances and then your sibling asks you to do the Birthright Quest. After doing that quest, (If you still want to leave I have no defense other then Hawke seems interested himself in dialogue and he loves his family) then your mother starts to petition for your family home again, if she did succeed then you would've had a better start and BAM Varric's plan, to help you get the money you need to gain a audience, and a better life. 2 birds with 1 stone if you will. From Act 2 onwards, well, you no longer have a reason to leave. You have friends who you like, possible an attraction towards, you live in comfort, plus the Viscount himself requests you for a favor, opening the door for higher things. By act 3, your Champion of Kirkwal, your family is scattered or dead or Gamlen (though I do like Gamlen) so you might want to stick where your friends are.

For the Ander's plan thing, you can indeed insist that Anders tell you what he's doing, heck you can outright object to the quest and go, Screw you Anders, I'm not helping you! You can even convince Anders that whatever he was planning is stupid (Though, Justice takes over, and Anders admits that he's been having memory blanks) I don't know if you can warn the Chantry, as I have never tried that before.

If there's anything else, or you just want to keep arguing, go ahead, my Fanboyism and love for DA2 is ready to fight back!

[batlin]

[quote]MoogleCoat wrote...

To answer a few questions, The Qunari Occupation was set in act 1 in order to drive up the plot thread of act 2, It was the reason why Isabella was shipped wrecked, and introduced a reason why the Chantry was busy, many of the sisters talk about it during gossip, as well it allows the player to meet the viscount and his son, learning more about structure of Kirkwall and a glimpse of it's political problem. Finally, if they were not introduced in act 1 they would have no relevance during the 2nd act. [/quote]

Being introduced in act 1 and being a vague plot point for minor interactions is not the same thing as being relevant to act 1.

[quote]Moving on to Act 2. At the end of it, the Viscount is dead. This creates a need for a leader, which Meredith assumes control of quite quickly, leading to her power in Act 3, and while this is just my interpretation, also starts her hate against Hawke with that mini death glare she gives you. [/quote]

Yes, obviously the Qunari are relevant to act 2. But if the entire point of the Qunari occupation was to kill the viscount so that Meredith could seize power, that's a third of the game wasted in order to reach a fairly minor plot point.

[quote]Anders came to Kirkwall in order to save his friend Karl, and I while he was there for a while, he hasn't been there that long, or at least planned to leave, which he states upon asking your help. Anyway, If Hawke didn't come to help him, then Anders would've went to the Chantry alone, and judging from the powers that Anders had while you went into that mission, I doubt he would've made it out alive. [/quote]

He does make it out alive without Hawke's help...if you refuse to help him, Anders does it anyway.

[quote]Meredith, man she always gets a bad rep, and I don't know why...well okay she went crazy at the end. But that was indeed because of the lyrium idol. While Meredith was strict, there are several times within the acts where she sympathizes with mages or at the very least, you can tell her intention is to keep people safe. During act 1 for example she denies the idea to tranquil every single mage. It's not in till the end of Act 2 and start of act 3 moreso, that you hear whispers about how crazy and out of control Meredith is starting to get. I think the line that makes me think she wasn't that bad and was actually good is "I know, and it breaks my heart to do it, but we must be vigilant. If you cannot tell me a better way, do not brand me a tyrant!"[/quote]

You really mean to tell me she wouldn't have done anything drastic when the Chantry blew up if she didn't have the idol?

[quote]If during the arrival of Kirkwall you ask the question "Why don't we go somewhere else?" then your sibling will tell you "No. We can't go anywhere else. Also Mom loves this place, and I don't want to make her sad or something, we already lost my Twin, so we're staying."[/quote]

"Hey guys, I appreciate that you like the aesthetic of this town or whatever, but maybe you guys should consider that mages are VERY heavily persecuted here, more so than in Ferelden, so mom and Beth, you're kind of idiots for wanting to stay. There's also an entire Qunari military occupying the city, and we have exactly nothing here to our names except an old guy who gambled away everything we might have had. Why don't we go back to Ferelden, again?"

[quote]To which you can say "Well I want to ditch my family, but then you would miss the game and well if you could do anything you wanted, the game would never be made.[/quote]
You cannot justify irrational actions because the plot requires them. It's the job of the writers to make rational characters behave rationally and to keep the plot moving forward in accordance with that.

Ever heard of the "idiot ball"?

http://tvtropes.org/.../Main/IdiotBall

[quote]This also makes sense from a story perspective, Hawke, is shown no matter what personality you pick to actually care for his family, ie. Hawke moves in to stop the Templar from killing his sister. So, you do the 1 year in servitude thing, making you stay in Kirkwall, for the year. Now, that your done that, either you or Bethany is being hunted by Templars,[/quote]

And then, to protect your family from templars, you leave the city. Wait...

[quote]Come in Varric to keep you here with his plan, But assume you think the plan is stupid and want to go away anyways.[/quote]

There are deeproads excursions in Ferelden as well. Why was this particular excursion so important?

[quote]Upon arriving home to pack, Gamlen and your mother are arguing about the inheritances and then your sibling asks you to do the Birthright Quest. After doing that quest, (If you still want to leave I have no defense other then Hawke seems interested himself in dialogue and he loves his family)[/quote]

If Hawke really cared about his family, he'd want to leave Kirkwall. That seems pretty obvious.

[quote]For the Ander's plan thing, you can indeed insist that Anders tell you what he's doing,[/quote]

No, you can say "Seriously dude, what are you planning?" Hawke never presses further than that.

[quote]heck you can outright object to the quest and go, Screw you Anders, I'm not helping you! You can even convince Anders that whatever he was planning is stupid (Though, Justice takes over, and Anders admits that he's been having memory blanks) I don't know if you can warn the Chantry, as I have never tried that before.[/quote]

I tried. You cannot. You are hand-cuffed into keeping Anders' ominous plan from anyone and everyone. there's also no way at all to investigate what anders' plan is. No evidence at his clinic, none of your other companions say anything about it...just a dead end for no reason other than it would be inconvenient to the plot if Hawke tried to stop Anders. And again, that is NOT a valid excuse.

[quote]If there's anything else, or you just want to keep arguing, go ahead, my Fanboyism and love for DA2 is ready to fight back![/quote]

Let me save us some time then:

Modifié par batlin, 27 octobre 2012 - 09:50 .

[FaWa]

Are we talking about the same game that had this beautifully crafted plot twist?




Even Bioware couldn't defend this piece of trash

Modifié par FaWa, 29 octobre 2012 - 07:04 .

[Hydralisk]

It could have been great... but they rushed it...

[TheLegendofWade]

I'm in the middle of Act II currently. Haven't read much on the game and just started playing it.... All I can say is that I recognized a templar vs mage theme after almost a few quests. They didn't put it as the "center" issue for DAII's Act I and II, but it's definitely present in even the first act. It could have been more overt, by your standards, but I'm okay with its structure.  There are plenty of issues in today's society that are only "episodically" represented in the news, culture, etc... but they will eventually become "big issues" that need to get resolved.  Just how things work. Think back on any political hot-topic currently.

I've put 300+ hours into Origins...took me until now to play DA2 (after reading so many damning fan reviews), but I enjoy the story.

[Reikilea]

I soo agree. This story falls apart at so many points. And not to mention this long time periods between acts. It took you three years to get estate back? Really Hawke. I hate paperwork too, but three
years. Three blind years when nothing happened in Kirkwall...

Orsino thingy was completely WTF moment. I had no idea what that was. I that I had no idea Bioware was trying to pull with that one. Maybe it served better if you sided with templars - as a man who was constantly pushed finally erupted. And even that would be weird. But when you side with mages and that happens...

The main problem for me was they were constantly trying to force you to jump into conclusion. What I cheap thing to use mad mage to murder your mother. Hm let’s give them reason to sympathise with templars.

Act three was really bad in terms of writing. Forcing the issue mage vs templars was too much.  For example the quest for Orsino. Dindt I already established I´m and apostate, mage supporters and want to get rid of Meredith. And why I ´m here fighting the mages and templars who decided to work together in order to bring Meredith down? What was the point of this quest? To reaped some thign that we already. Mages can be bad, templars can be bad.

I dislike when characters act completely unreasonable - when they act against what they stand in story.

And the thing with Anders. Why people complain. He warned you. Warned you a lot. Especially in romance. Even when you consider that Meredith completely crushed his mage underground. I get angry when someone refuses my article. If someone killed all my friends. Well...  Considering how angry I was with the story I would gladly agree to help him to plant the explosives.

And other thing that got me really angry was Anders freaking out in Legacy. I don’t mind him freaking out, but why would he summons demons. I think this is an example of a bad writing. I find it extremely illogical for Anders and Justice to summon shades. What the reason behind it, as Justice detested everything about blood magic and demons and mentioned it at every chance when we encountered demons. When this moment came up only thing I could think of was, seriously? Why couldn’t some ancient grey warden spirit show up instead of demons?

It took me so long to get into this game. Nearly a year. The only thing that kept my playing was the word Bioware already established in DA:O. And some characters.

Modifié par Reikilea, 10 décembre 2012 - 02:30 .

[B3tester]

If there is one theme that Dragon Age II has is. "You cant bring back the good old days." Hawke's mother wanted to go back to her childhood home of Kirkwall, but ended up having to beg to get back inside Kirkwall. She also lost another child to the consequences of the deep roads expedition and ultimately suffered a tragic consequence in Act 2. Merill tried to use her magic mirror to bring back the golden age of elven kind. Unaware of the high cost she would pay in act 3. Bartrand sacrificed Varric and his friends to bring House Tehras back to high standards only to fall into madness. I found Dragon age 2's story very heart renching on a dramatic thematic level.

[B3tester]

If there is one theme that Dragon Age II has is. "You cant bring back the good old days." Hawke's mother wanted to go back to her childhood home of Kirkwall, but ended up having to beg to get back inside Kirkwall. She also lost another child to the consequences of the deep roads expedition and ultimately suffered a tragic consequence in Act 2. Merill tried to use her magic mirror to bring back the golden age of elven kind. Unaware of the high cost she would pay in act 3. Bartrand sacrificed Varric and his friends to bring House Tehras back to high standards only to fall into madness. I found Dragon age 2's story very heart renching on a dramatic thematic level.