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The Paradox of Synthesis - Is Self-Determination Violated or Celebrated?


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#1
CosmicGnosis

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NOTE: I'm currently trying to decide on a canon ending for myself. I have considered the pros and cons of every choice, but I still haven't committed myself to one. In recent times, I have argued for Destroy, although I have also argued for Synthesis in the past. In this thread, I'm arguing for Synthesis because I think people often don't recognize the merits of this choice. I assume literal interpretations of the endings, so I don't consider Synthesis to be a deception.

Just like everybody else, I hate that Synthesis affects every being in the galaxy. Such an act is indeed a violation of the self-determination of all beings because the decision is made for them.

However, if you take the EC literally, then you have to accept that Synthesis ultimately bestows more self-determination upon sapient beings than most have ever had. A post-Synthesis galaxy allows all beings with enough knowledge and ambition to shape themselves in any way that they wish. Thus, it's unlikely that pre-spaceflight civilizations will benefit from Synthesis until they reach a certain level of technological advancement. This ensures that they will progress at a steady rate.

A literal interpretation of Synthesis suggests that sapient beings are given more power than they lose. Yes, they have no say in the initial decision, but they are forcibly given the ability to forge their own destinies. No longer will they be bound to natural limits on their physical and mental development. It's far more likely that Synthesis will promote genetic and ideological diversity than widespread homogenization.

Yes, it's creepy, but it's supposed to be. It's a revolution, a leap into the unknown. The old order produced cosmic tyrants like the Leviathans and the Reapers. What the new order will produce is completely unknown, but it's likely that individual beings will have a greater command of their personal destinies. A galactic dictatorship will be harder to maintain in a Synthesized galaxy. Again, this assumes a literal interpretation of the EC.

It's not that Nature is bad, but that it's neutral. Nature just is, and has no morality. As sapient and sentient beings, however, we assign our own meaning to Nature, and exploit it for ourselves. And in the most technical sense, we are the universe. We are the universe's consciousness. The universe experiences its existence through beings like us. Synthesis simply enhances our ability to perceive ourselves on a larger cosmic scale. Thus, one gains a greater understanding of one's place in the cosmos.

Synthesis also acknowledges that your physical make-up doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter if you are made of organic parts or synthetic parts. What's important is who you are. The personhood of synthetics is affirmed with this choice, despite some possible narrative inconsistencies. Still, I find it difficult to argue for the legitimacy of synthetic life when I choose to be the cause of their extinction and associate myself with people who confidently argue that synthetics were never really alive. I suppose, however, that if I can validate a thematic paradox for Synthesis, others can validate a thematic paradox for Destroy.

It seems to me that Synthesis is more of a celebration of self-determination than a violation of it. It's a strange paradox, but I think a reasonable mixture of literal interpretation and headcanon can make Synthesis a more appealing choice.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:53 .


#2
CINCTuchanka

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Well thought out, I will mull over this for a bit....

Keep up the good posts!

#3
Xilizhra

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Synthesis is very poorly explained by the Catalyst, and a great deal of it has to be gleaned from the epilogue slides, so... I see nothing incorrect in your assessment, really. Kudos.

#4
teh DRUMPf!!

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 It's basically Destroy without the loss of tech everywhere, really. Destroy sets you back and stops the Reapers, Synthesis moves you forward and stops them.

Quite simple, really.

*edit* - and good post, OP.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:36 .


#5
Hey

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Maybe it's violated initially but then celebrated?.. Everyone in the slides looks happy as **** - even the husks seems really happy.

#6
CosmicGnosis

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Festae9 wrote...

Maybe it's violated initially but then celebrated?.. Everyone in the slides looks happy as **** - even the husks seems really happy.


I suspect that the husks are merely humanoid avatars of the Reapers, but it's certainly ambiguous.

#7
Eterna

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I think that Synthesis closes a window, but opens a newer and better one.

#8
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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Festae9 wrote...

Maybe it's violated initially but then celebrated?.. Everyone in the slides looks happy as **** - even the husks seems really happy.


I suspect that the husks are merely humanoid avatars of the Reapers, but it's certainly ambiguous.


ambiguous - yeah.. 
Potentially the worst decion of anyone ever... NO pressure!  Posted Image

#9
Texhnolyze101

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Interesting way to look at it but synthesis still sucks to me and always will.

#10
dreman9999

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The issue of Syhtesis is that it's a questin of the moral of advancement, end vs means,and freedom vs control.


We do advance with synthesis, but are freedom goes with it. Is advance like this worth our free will?

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .


#11
CosmicGnosis

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I think I should address Shepard's sacrifice. Yeah, it makes no sense, although Ieldra has proposed a compelling theory. Shepard's "essence" is actually his mind, and that is what serves as the template. Thus, Synthesis is whatever Shepard imagines it to be, at least within the limits of the Catalyst's basic description of it.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:35 .


#12
teh DRUMPf!!

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dreman9999 wrote...

The issue of Syhtesis is that it's a questin of the moral of advancement, end vs means,and freedom vs control.


We do advance with synthesis, but are freedom goes with it. Is advance like this worth our free will?



Synthesis rebuilding process is nearly identical to Destroy's. Free will is very much there.

#13
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CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think I should address Shepard's sacrifice. Yeah, it makes no sense, although Ieldra has proposed a compelling theory. Shepard's "essence" is actually his mind, and that is what serves as the template. Thus, Synthesis is whatever Shepard imagines it to be, at least within the limits of the Catalyst's basic description of it.


its creative and i like it but totally ****ed to make a deicision based on acid trips 

also dark side of the moon syncs up perfect to the wizard of oz.

#14
dreman9999

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The issue of Syhtesis is that it's a questin of the moral of advancement, end vs means,and freedom vs control.


We do advance with synthesis, but are freedom goes with it. Is advance like this worth our free will?



Synthesis rebuilding process is nearly identical to Destroy's. Free will is very much there.

Remeber Legions loyalty mission where we can rewrite the heritics and not a one notice? You do know that the reapers/catalyst speacilive in do that with organics. And you letting the catalyst change all life......How would we even know we are being controled by it is synthesis...Do you trust the catalyst that much to say it would not do it?

#15
CosmicGnosis

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Literal interpretation, guys. Literal interpretation. No deception, no second-guessing.

#16
teh DRUMPf!!

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dreman9999 wrote...

Remeber Legions loyalty mission where we can rewrite the heritics and not a one notice? You do know that the reapers/catalyst speacilive in do that with organics. And you letting the catalyst change all life......How would we even know we are being controled by it is synthesis...


Well, since we're doing things exactly as we'd be doing it without the Reapers. That's how.

Do you trust the catalyst that much to say it would not do it?


Yes. The Catalyst only has one goal in life, and that's solving Leviathan's mandate, not galactic dominance.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:08 .


#17
Demon560

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Remeber Legions loyalty mission where we can rewrite the heritics and not a one notice? You do know that the reapers/catalyst speacilive in do that with organics. And you letting the catalyst change all life......How would we even know we are being controled by it is synthesis...


Well, since we're doing things exactly as we'd be doing it without the Reapers. That's how.

Do you trust the catalyst that much to say it would not do it?


Yes. The Catalyst only has one goal in life, and that's solving Leviathan's mandate, not galactic dominance.


just a thought, but wouldn't brainwashing everyone in the universe to be happy and work together, and you know get along and get rid of some of our flaws within our personality kind of help it to preserve as much life as possible, mind control wouldn't really go against its programming of preserving all life, forcing everyone to get along via some sort of mind control/indoctrination would allow for a lot of people working together, getting along, be happy, and they would not be able to tell the difference between being brainwashed now or how they thought before this process, again just a thought,

Modifié par Demon560, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:26 .


#18
CosmicGnosis

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

 It's basically Destroy without the loss of tech everywhere, really. Destroy sets you back and stops the Reapers, Synthesis moves you forward and stops them.

Quite simple, really.

*edit* - and good post, OP.


Yes, Control maintains the status quo, and Destroy and Synthesis change the galaxy. Destroy stays within the old natural order, and Synthesis creates a new natural order.

#19
AdmiralCheez

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's far more likely that Synthesis will promote genetic and ideological diversity than widespread homogenization.

Okay, I hate to break out the science here, but... *cracks knuckles*

- Synthesis advances all organics/synthetics to the "pinnacle" of their evolution, which means that they've reached optimal fitness within the galactic environment.  When one genotype is better than all the other genotypes, it will become "fixed" within the population, basically driving all non-optimal genotypes to extinction.

- In addition, organics have been "perfected" down to the molecular level.  Here's the funny thing about biological evolution: it gets its raw material from mutations, and mutations are errors in genetic replication.  Chances are, those nanites will not allow mutations to occur since there's a higher chance of a mutation being detrimental than beneficial.

- It is likely that Synthesis creates a stable, safe environment for most species.  As resources become abundant and conflict from all sources is eliminated, natural selection's effects are pretty much null.

- Not to mention that Synthesis affects EVERYONE, thus no new genes are going to come in from non-Synthesized populations.  Furthermore, the galaxy is an isolated system; it's hella unlikely that anything's gonna come flying in from Andromeda looking to add its alleles to the gene pool.

So we've got an optimal genotype in a stable environment with no mutations occuring and no gene flow.  Guess what's not gonna happen?  Evolution.  And with no evolution, there's no genetic diversity.  You're wrong there, CG.

But what about cultural homogeny?  Well...

- As the galaxy is united (with NO isolated groups), cultures will eventually blend to the point of homogeny, especially since "unity" is heavily encouraged.

- And now that everyone "understands" each other, all data is available to everyone.  People aren't going to reach different conclusions anymore because they see all sides.  Their collective minds can work together to find a single, optimal solution.

- Groups probably won't be allowed to isolate themselves, since isolation leads to growing differences, and differences lead to conflict.  Synthesis was meant to end conflict--in fact THE conflict--so it is likely that any early symptoms of conflict emerging again would be nipped in the bud.

So yeah, the galactic culture WILL BECOME homogenous.

Basically:

Posted Image

Only they won't evolve/adapt/do dat Borgy thang because they have nothing to evolve against.

also id like to apologize for this post its 3am and i spent like five hours reading scientific papers on horizontal gene transfer between bacteria i am not even a biology major wtf is this

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:52 .


#20
dreman9999

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Remeber Legions loyalty mission where we can rewrite the heritics and not a one notice? You do know that the reapers/catalyst speacilive in do that with organics. And you letting the catalyst change all life......How would we even know we are being controled by it is synthesis...


Well, since we're doing things exactly as we'd be doing it without the Reapers. That's how.

Do you trust the catalyst that much to say it would not do it?


Yes. The Catalyst only has one goal in life, and that's solving Leviathan's mandate, not galactic dominance.


But you don't even understand how he planned to do it. Don't you understand that the entire idea of the reaper solution was to control other beings. He turn them in to reaper so it cancontrol their will. The catalyst synthesis solution is not different outside of the fact that advance life is not changed to a reaper. It's goal is control and with synthesis control is still there.

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:23 .


#21
clennon8

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Synthesis. The choice for contrarian a-holes and meatheads.

#22
Karrie788

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Wow, great posts CosmisGnosis and AdmiralCheeze. Despite how much I hate that ending, it really gives some food for thought.

Personally my main issue with the Synthesis ending (aside from the hilarious green eyes they all get, but that's a detail) is that I couldn't buy that all species in the galaxy would simply accept what has happened to them and that the Reapers, who probably spent months destroying their homes and killing their loved ones, are now good guys who they are willing to work with. It kinda scares me how happy they all look. If you take the EC litterally, sure, it looks like a good ending. Personally, it creeps me out.

#23
UrgentArchengel

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Reminds me of The Stepford Wives a little. Those "perfect wives" are just plain creepy.

#24
CosmicGnosis

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's far more likely that Synthesis will promote genetic and ideological diversity than widespread homogenization.

Okay, I hate to break out the science here, but... *cracks knuckles*

- Synthesis advances all organics/synthetics to the "pinnacle" of their evolution, which means that they've reached optimal fitness within the galactic environment.  When one genotype is better than all the other genotypes, it will become "fixed" within the population, basically driving all non-optimal genotypes to extinction.

- In addition, organics have been "perfected" down to the molecular level.  Here's the funny thing about biological evolution: it gets its raw material from mutations, and mutations are errors in genetic replication.  Chances are, those nanites will not allow mutations to occur since there's a higher chance of a mutation being detrimental than beneficial.

- It is likely that Synthesis creates a stable, safe environment for most species.  As resources become abundant and conflict from all sources is eliminated, natural selection's effects are pretty much null.

- Not to mention that Synthesis affects EVERYONE, thus no new genes are going to come in from non-Synthesized populations.  Furthermore, the galaxy is an isolated system; it's hella unlikely that anything's gonna come flying in from Andromeda looking to add its alleles to the gene pool.

So we've got an optimal genotype in a stable environment with no mutations occuring and no gene flow.  Guess what's not gonna happen?  Evolution.  And with no evolution, there's no genetic diversity.  You're wrong there, CG.

But what about cultural homogeny?  Well...

- As the galaxy is united (with NO isolated groups), cultures will eventually blend to the point of homogeny, especially since "unity" is heavily encouraged.

- And now that everyone "understands" each other, all data is available to everyone.  People aren't going to reach different conclusions anymore because they see all sides.  Their collective minds can work together to find a single, optimal solution.

- Groups probably won't be allowed to isolate themselves, since isolation leads to growing differences, and differences lead to conflict.  Synthesis was meant to end conflict--in fact THE conflict--so it is likely that any early symptoms of conflict emerging again would be nipped in the bud.

So yeah, the galactic culture WILL BECOME homogenous.


Well, my point was that genetic diversity will not be a problem with Synthesis because individuals with have direct control over their bodies. Once you have control over your genes, natural evolution certainly does end, so I'm not arguing with that. As for the nanites themselves, I imagine that they will not interfere with the evolution of species that don't know how to access them. They will just lie dormant in their bodies.

Now the cultural problem may actually be the bigger concern. You made some good points, but I think the power that Synthesis gives individuals will actually encourage both collective and isolationist development. There will surely be some people who will prefer to exist on their own, and I hope they can find a way to achieve that. I suspect that the galaxy is big enough for those people to avoid joining a hive mind or something like that. I should emphasize, however, that this is a singularity. Thus, we can't really imagine what a post-Synthesis future will look like. And you know what that means: Headcanon.

The Catalyst was trying to solve organic-synthetic conflicts that led to the extinction of organic life. Now that organics can integrate themselves with technology, they will be able to adequately defend themselves against hostile synthetics.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:43 .


#25
Shogun Fish

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

It's far more likely that Synthesis will promote genetic and ideological diversity than widespread homogenization.

Okay, I hate to break out the science here, but... *cracks knuckles*

- Synthesis advances all organics/synthetics to the "pinnacle" of their evolution, which means that they've reached optimal fitness within the galactic environment.  When one genotype is better than all the other genotypes, it will become "fixed" within the population, basically driving all non-optimal genotypes to extinction.

- In addition, organics have been "perfected" down to the molecular level.  Here's the funny thing about biological evolution: it gets its raw material from mutations, and mutations are errors in genetic replication.  Chances are, those nanites will not allow mutations to occur since there's a higher chance of a mutation being detrimental than beneficial.

- It is likely that Synthesis creates a stable, safe environment for most species.  As resources become abundant and conflict from all sources is eliminated, natural selection's effects are pretty much null.

- Not to mention that Synthesis affects EVERYONE, thus no new genes are going to come in from non-Synthesized populations.  Furthermore, the galaxy is an isolated system; it's hella unlikely that anything's gonna come flying in from Andromeda looking to add its alleles to the gene pool.

So we've got an optimal genotype in a stable environment with no mutations occuring and no gene flow.  Guess what's not gonna happen?  Evolution.  And with no evolution, there's no genetic diversity.  You're wrong there, CG.

But what about cultural homogeny?  Well...

- As the galaxy is united (with NO isolated groups), cultures will eventually blend to the point of homogeny, especially since "unity" is heavily encouraged.

- And now that everyone "understands" each other, all data is available to everyone.  People aren't going to reach different conclusions anymore because they see all sides.  Their collective minds can work together to find a single, optimal solution.

- Groups probably won't be allowed to isolate themselves, since isolation leads to growing differences, and differences lead to conflict.  Synthesis was meant to end conflict--in fact THE conflict--so it is likely that any early symptoms of conflict emerging again would be nipped in the bud.

So yeah, the galactic culture WILL BECOME homogenous.



Only they won't evolve/adapt/do dat Borgy thang because they have nothing to evolve against.

also id like to apologize for this post its 3am and i spent like five hours reading scientific papers on horizontal gene transfer between bacteria i am not even a biology major wtf is this


I hate to break out the logic here but *picks up baseball bat*

Your entire statement is based on the idea that evolution will stop because everyone will be optimal. On the contrary, the OP's idea is that it will become diverse because instead of counting on random mutations it will count on individuals choosing their own paths.


Basically, these are two possible futures that could be reached. One where life is consumed by technology, the other where it is enhanced and diversified by it. Which one is achieved depends on a few factors.



Your proposed future is based on the way technology is today. It has to be mass produced, iPhones and Xboxes are all the same. Your idea is that with no new genetic material all future enhancements will move towards one single perfect form. You are saying that the inclusion of technology into organic life will cause all life to "upgrade" itself towards a central point. That our biological tendancies would become obsolite. The universe you are suggesting is based on the idea that function will be valued over form, there will be no room for art or aesthetics. 

The OP on the other hand is suggesting that the inclusion of synthetic parts in our genetics as well as the granting of genetic parts to synthetics will do the opposite. That any person can decide to upgrade themself at will, to focus on a personal goal. He thinks that based on different specializations the forms taken by beings would branch out and become diverse. Our biological half would keep our life meaningful while our synthetic half allowed us complete control of our destiny. Aesthetics would still be a concern so visual diversity would be common and vary greatly.

The big difference between your two ideas is whether you think "Upgrades" would be direct steps toward some "Perfect form" or a branching web of different things created by individuals to suit their personal tastes.

I tend to side with the OP.

Namely, the assumption that a half-synthetic half-organic creature would behave only as a synthetic creature doesn't suit me. I like to believe that our biological half would maintain our different goals, our desire for relationships and our ability to feel emotions. I would hope that in our newfound synthetic freedom we wouldn't decide to rewrite those things, but if we did we would end up in the future you suggest.