184 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

Xilizhra wrote...

Legion would rather his geth be destroyed than plugged back into the Reapers, and I can't see the geth being too happy with a bunch of Reapers keeping a perpetual eye on them, making sure they don't go rogue or something,even though they just fought to save the galaxy. The Collectors were worse than dead, that was an act of mercy, and the Reapers were monsters who deserved to die, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't been paying much attention to the last few games. What they did to all those trillions, quadrillions of people, is not forgivable.

I have no reason to "keep an eye" on the geth. The krogan, maybe, but the geth are trustworthy. The Collectors aren't extinct, and do show signs of sentience; I believe they can be uplifted into a better state. The Reapers themselves were under mind control as well, and aren't actually culpable for anything.

What you want is immaterial. The new Catalyst is the one calling the shots. While you may think your personality is the sole one calling the shots, there is nothing to say there isn't some part of the Catalyst's programming that isn't driving the new AI. It's an uncertainty. With Destroy, the Reapers are gone and everyone is safe.

The collectors show no sign of Sentience. There is no reversing what was done to them. Mordin states this very explicitely in the last game.

The Reapers were not under mind control, they ARE mind control. They are abominations, and seeing as the Catalyst was unwilling or unable to even prevent them from halting the attack on the Crucible, and who shows no signs of regret or remorse despite being the collective embodiment of the Reapers, I'm not going to give him or his monsters the benefit of the doubt. When you face a pack of rabid wolves, or a fire ravaging your home (to use Starbinger's analogy), you don't make peace with it, you don't control it to burn down your neighbor's house, you put it out. You end the threat, accept that you have to rebuild half your house, and life goes on.

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
How easy it is to diminish the existence of the "other", to condemn something that you don't understand.

Look, if we had never learned about the Catalyst, I wouldn't object to killing the Reapers. But we've learned that the situation is completely different from what we expected. Thus, we have to reconsider our ethical positions.

Why? Why should we reconsider? The Catalyst was made by a bunch of intergalactic mind slavers, designed to preserve their thralls, and ended up going loco and rebelling until it decided the only way to preserve life was to obliterate it and reform it in a new form. The Catalyst, and the Reapers, are a fire that got out of control. They are not people, they are tools, and if they ARE people, then they're still genocidal, cruel, sadistic monsters that need to be wiped out.

[Xilizhra]

What you want is immaterial. The new Catalyst is the one calling the shots. While you may think your personality is the sole one calling the shots, there is nothing to say there isn't some part of the Catalyst's programming that isn't driving the new AI. It's an uncertainty. With Destroy, the Reapers are gone and everyone is safe.

The new Catalyst is my character. I will determine its actions hereafter as much as I could with the original Shepard. If you want to have your own interpretation, feel free; it's irrelevant to my sending.

The collectors show no sign of Sentience. There is no reversing what was done to them. Mordin states this very explicitely in the last game.

I listed some before. And maybe I can't make them into Protheans again, but I can uplift them nonetheless.

The Reapers were not under mind control, they ARE mind control. They are abominations, and seeing as the Catalyst was unwilling or unable to even prevent them from halting the attack on the Crucible, and who shows no signs of regret or remorse despite being the collective embodiment of the Reapers, I'm not going to give him or his monsters the benefit of the doubt. When you face a pack of rabid wolves, or a fire ravaging your home (to use Starbinger's analogy), you don't make peace with it, you don't control it to burn down your neighbor's house, you put it out. You end the threat, accept that you have to rebuild half your house, and life goes on.

Ah, but you do tame fire to heat your house, for instance. And I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, if only to avoid genocide.

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I could argue that it would be the real Harbinger, although that would be the Leviathans...

And they're jerks.  And tell me, was the Reaper larva in ME2 the same as the humans it was made of?

Still, should I condemn every Reaper to death just because some of them might contain aggressive or egotistical species?

Yep.

Am I really a fool to have some empathy for the Reapers?

Totally.

They are valid beings, despite their birth.

Well, no one's denying their sapience...

The destruction they caused wasn't their fault.

Yes it was.  Especially w/out stupid Catalyst plot twist.

This makes complete sense. How else would every harvested species just suddenly conclude, "Gee, guys! Harvesting really is a great idea!"?It makes sense that a central overlord like the Catalyst exists, and that it subdues the wills of the harvested species.

Or, you know, being a god-machine could legitimately be that fun.  I'd sure as hell have fun being a god-machine, mind controllin' beeyitchez, firin' mah lazors, living basically forever...

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:10 .

[Xilizhra]

But the soldiers simply stopped firing. There was no surrender. There was no cheering. Everything just... stopped. I find that incredibly unsettling.

And what does it mean to "better integrate with technology?" Can Joker and EDI make babies now? Or is it, like, mind-to-mind stuff, because Overlord and the Prothean beacons do that. Cybernetics? Shepard. We integrate fine, thanks.

I don't pick Synthesis myself because it's not explained well. I direct you to the Synthesis Compendium thread for more questions.

The Collectors are tools; like husks, they are incapable of free will. I am not comfortable with what happened to EDI/the geth and thus have headcanoned it away. And the Reapers? Cosmic justice.

Death is never justice. Your headcanon is irrelevant to my thought processes. And the Collectors have potential to be uplifted, in addition to making better representatives to the rest of the galaxy than husks.

So synthesizing the Reapers makes new life. So does sex. Sex is more fun than Reapers. Even when sex doesn't produce new life, it's more fun than Reapers.

I don't know. Sex is good, but is it as good as awakening the potential in the Reapers, making those species' deaths be somewhat less in vain?

Totally.

Should I call you an utter dolt for sticking your fingers in your ears and humming when presented with the doom of the geth? Or would that be unnecessarily aggressive?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:15 .

[RiptideX1090]

Xilizhra wrote...

What you want is immaterial. The new Catalyst is the one calling the shots. While you may think your personality is the sole one calling the shots, there is nothing to say there isn't some part of the Catalyst's programming that isn't driving the new AI. It's an uncertainty. With Destroy, the Reapers are gone and everyone is safe.

The new Catalyst is my character. I will determine its actions hereafter as much as I could with the original Shepard. If you want to have your own interpretation, feel free; it's irrelevant to my sending.

The collectors show no sign of Sentience. There is no reversing what was done to them. Mordin states this very explicitely in the last game.

I listed some before. And maybe I can't make them into Protheans again, but I can uplift them nonetheless.

The Reapers were not under mind control, they ARE mind control. They are abominations, and seeing as the Catalyst was unwilling or unable to even prevent them from halting the attack on the Crucible, and who shows no signs of regret or remorse despite being the collective embodiment of the Reapers, I'm not going to give him or his monsters the benefit of the doubt. When you face a pack of rabid wolves, or a fire ravaging your home (to use Starbinger's analogy), you don't make peace with it, you don't control it to burn down your neighbor's house, you put it out. You end the threat, accept that you have to rebuild half your house, and life goes on.

Ah, but you do tame fire to heat your house, for instance. And I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, if only to avoid genocide.

No, your character is dead. You get no say in what happens. If I picked Control, could I send the Reapers into a star like I'd want to? No. Can you prevent the Reapers going rogue if that's what you wanted? No. It's a gamble, and one where you're playing with flames that could burn down the galaxy if you're wrong. And every instance regarding controlling the Reapers is shown to be flawed.

No, you can't. Mordin says there is no helping them. That you wilfully disregard what is presented in-game for your own absurd interpretations lends your perspective all the credence it deserves.

It's not a fire you ever tamed, it's one that's burned down entire civilizations and is threatening to burn down yours. Putting it out isn't genocide, it's survival.

[RiptideX1090]

You're a hypocrite, Xil. You say Cheeze' headcanon is irrelevant, then fall back on your own.

[Xilizhra]

No, your character is dead. You get no say in what happens. If I picked Control, could I send the Reapers into a star like I'd want to? No. Can you prevent the Reapers going rogue if that's what you wanted? No. It's a gamble, and one where you're playing with flames that could burn down the galaxy if you're wrong. And every instance regarding controlling the Reapers is shown to be flawed.

Enjoy your interpretations if you want.

No, you can't. Mordin says there is no helping them. That you wilfully disregard what is presented in-game for your own absurd interpretations lends your perspective all the credence it deserves.

Mordin's changed his mind before. And he didn't have access to the technology that reproduces the Collectors in the first place.

You're a hypocrite, Xil. You say Cheeze' headcanon is irrelevant, then fall back on your own.

I said it was irrelevant to my thought processes. I have no problem with her using it for hers.

[CosmicGnosis]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
How easy it is to diminish the existence of the "other", to condemn something that you don't understand.

Look, if we had never learned about the Catalyst, I wouldn't object to killing the Reapers. But we've learned that the situation is completely different from what we expected. Thus, we have to reconsider our ethical positions.

Why? Why should we reconsider? The Catalyst was made by a bunch of intergalactic mind slavers, designed to preserve their thralls, and ended up going loco and rebelling until it decided the only way to preserve life was to obliterate it and reform it in a new form. The Catalyst, and the Reapers, are a fire that got out of control. They are not people, they are tools, and if they ARE people, then they're still genocidal, cruel, sadistic monsters that need to be wiped out.

I just think that the ethical dilemma is more complicated than many people care to admit. I don't want to kill the avatars of ancient civilizations if there is the possibility of restoring them. I can totally see the Reapers in a post-Synthesis galaxy restoring their respective species.

[CosmicGnosis]

I think I should state again that I haven't committed myself to an ending. This thread is my attempt at rationalizing Synthesis to myself. And I completely understand the appeal of Destroy, with the exception of the death of synthetic life.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't pick Synthesis myself because it's not explained well. I direct you to the Synthesis Compendium thread for more questions.

Well, if you can't explain it, don't argue for it, ya silly goose!

Death is never justice.

I tend to be against capital punishment myself, but I make exceptions for genocidal maniacs and turdbag dictators.  The Reapers are both.

Your headcanon is irrelevant to my thought processes.

Well, that's not fair!  I accepted YOUR headcanon!  Jerk!

And the Collectors have potential to be uplifted, in addition to making better representatives to the rest of the galaxy than husks.

On behalf of Javik and ME2, OH HEEEELLLLL NO!  Besides, everyone already magically understands each other in the Synthesis ending, so nobody needs representatives for anything.

I don't know. Sex is good, but is it as good as awakening the potential in the Reapers, making those species' deaths be somewhat less in vain?

Whatever the Reapers are, they are NOT the same as the species they are forged from.  The Reaper larva was NOT human, and Harby is NOT a Leviathan.  Also, the history and memories of a civilization are NOT stored in DNA.

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
I just think that the ethical dilemma is more complicated than many people care to admit. I don't want to kill the avatars of ancient civilizations if there is the possibility of restoring them. I can totally see the Reapers in a post-Synthesis galaxy restoring their respective species.

And I could just as easily see Synthesis as one big successful indoctrination.

What you people do in your games is your business. Personally, I prefer the ending where EDI died a living person with purpose, the geth sacrificed themselves for a galaxy that misunderstood and feared them, where all life is free to self determinate without the Reapers hanging over their heads, where life is celebrated and chooses it's own path, not one chosen by a Reaper-Shepard or Harbinger and his ilk. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, and I will live on, knowing I did everything I could to stop the Catalyst. And I succeeded.

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think I should state again that I haven't committed myself to an ending. This thread is my attempt at rationalizing Synthesis to myself. And I completely understand the appeal of Destroy, with the exception of the death of synthetic life.

Personally, I've arrived at the conclusion that they're all stupid.  Hence why I made one up of my own.

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think I should state again that I haven't committed myself to an ending. This thread is my attempt at rationalizing Synthesis to myself. And I completely understand the appeal of Destroy, with the exception of the death of synthetic life.

The sacrifice of synthetic life. All the difference in the world.

EDI sacrificed herself, as she said she would gladly do to defend her humanity and Jeff's. The geth individuals are gone, too, but perhaps that's penance for nearly driving the quarians to extinction and to exile. The quarians had their time in exile, now maybe it's kharmic justice that the geth have theirs. I see no reason they can't return, however, and be rebuilt.

[Xilizhra]

I tend to be against capital punishment myself, but I make exceptions for genocidal maniacs and turdbag dictators. The Reapers are both.

I do not, when possible. I have a blanket ban on the death penalty; I kill only in combat.

Well, that's not fair! I accepted YOUR headcanon! Jerk!

I said it was irrelevant to mine. I'm not saying your Destroy is invalid to you. But you do still kill off the Reapers. My apologies for being unclear.

On behalf of Javik and ME2, OH HEEEELLLLL NO! Besides, everyone already magically understands each other in the Synthesis ending, so nobody needs representatives for anything.

I'm doing Control. And the Avatar of Bigotry, erm, Vengeance, can get over it.

Whatever the Reapers are, they are NOT the same as the species they are forged from. The Reaper larva was NOT human, and Harby is NOT a Leviathan. Also, the history and memories of a civilization are NOT stored in DNA.

But they are the memory of said species, and the dissolution of the harvesting subjects while they're alive seems to be to preserve their memories. The history and memories of the species will be preserved in the Reapers' computers.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:27 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I do not, when possible.

Meh, absolute morality is for chumps.

I said it was irrelevant to mine. I'm not saying your Destroy is invalid to you. But you do still kill off the Reapers. My apologies for being unclear.

It was kinda my plan to kill off the Reapers since ME1.  I ain't dumpin' that just cuz y'all get metaphysical on me.

I'm doing Control. And the Avatar of Bigotry, erm, Vengeance, can get over it.

He doesn't get over it; he commits suicide.  Also, I felt more sorry for the Avatar of Violent Tsundere* Angst than I ever did for the Reapers.

*"Stupid primitives!  It's not like I'm helping you because I like you or anything!"

But they are the memory of said species, and the dissolution of the harvesting subjects while they're alive seems to be to preserve their memories. The history and memories of the species will be preserved in the Reapers' computers.

Normally, I'm for the preservation of knowledge and history, but screw Reapers, man.

[Alanosborn1991]

Jack hates synthesis, if you bring jack to Legions loyalty she says shed rather get shot in the head then smile and nod when reprogammed.

[CosmicGnosis]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

What you people do in your games is your business. Personally, I prefer the ending where EDI died a living person with purpose, the geth sacrificed themselves for a galaxy that misunderstood and feared them, where all life is free to self determinate without the Reapers hanging over their heads, where life is celebrated and chooses it's own path, not one chosen by a Reaper-Shepard or Harbinger and his ilk. I fight for freedom, mine and everyone's, and I will live on, knowing I did everything I could to stop the Catalyst. And I succeeded.

See, that's great and all... until I realize that I just validated Javik's anti-synthetic ideology. And there are a lot of people in this forum who don't care about synthetic life the way I do. People like Javik would never hesitate to choose Destroy. And that's why I get the sense that there's something very wrong with Destroy, that there's a sickening philosophy buried beneath the validation of organic life.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Xilizhra]

Meh, absolute morality is for chumps.

I preserve life.

He doesn't get over it; he commits suicide. Also, I felt more sorry for the Avatar of Violent Tsundere* Angst than I ever did for the Reapers.

Only if you give him the Echo Shard, which I do not. In my playthrough, he said he was going to see what peace looked like and write a book with Liara.

Normally, I'm for the preservation of knowledge and history, but screw Reapers, man.

I don't really care what the source of knowledge is; I'll take it whenever I can. And if I preserve life in the process, so much the better.

[RiptideX1090]

Modifié par RiptideX1090, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:41 .

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

See, that's great and all... until I realize that I just validated Javik's anti-synthetic ideology. And there also a lot of people in the forum who care about synthetic life the way I do. People like Javik would never hesitate to choose Destroy. And that's why I get the sense that there's something very wrong with Destroy, that there's a sickening philosophy buried beneath the validation of organic life.

If anything, Destroy validates synthetic life. It gives it weight and meaning. In control, all you prove is that synthetic life is worthy of being controlled and enslaved, I'm sure Xen would be proud. In Synthesis, you spit on organics and synthetics by saying there is no way they can ever be equals unless you force them to.

[RiptideX1090]

Xilizhra wrote...

I preserve life.

You consume it.

[Xilizhra]

If anything, Destroy validates synthetic life. It gives it weight and meaning. In control, all you prove is that synthetic life is worthy of being controlled and enslaved, I'm sure Xen would be proud. In Synthesis, you spit on organics and synthetics by saying there is no way they can ever be equals unless you force them to.

The only meaning of synthetic life in Destroy is as canon fodder. Under Control and Synthesis, both are equal to organics.

You consume it.

I've never consumed any form of life in that manner.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I preserve life.

I'd ask about how you apply that to real-life issues, but talking politics on the forums tends to call down the ban-hammer.

Only if you give him the Echo Shard, which I do not. In my playthrough, he said he was going to see what peace looked like and write a book with Liara.

You think he's going to make good on that knowing the Reapers are still alive and in control, knowing that the person whom he trusted to take them down became one of them instead?

I don't really care what the source of knowledge is; I'll take it whenever I can. And if I preserve life in the process, so much the better.

Extract the data from their corpses, I say.  It may not be as complete, but hey, it gave us EDI.

Who is totally still alive in my headcanon.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only meaning of synthetic life in Destroy is as canon fodder.

Uh, most people who picked Destruction regret the loss of EDI and the geth?

Hello?

We've been over this?