184 réponses à ce sujet

[RiptideX1090]

Xilizhra wrote...

The only meaning of synthetic life in Destroy is as canon fodder. Under Control and Synthesis, both are equal to organics.

I've never consumed any form of life in that manner.

The meaning is that they were willing to be sacrificed for all species to self-determinate, and to be free of the Reapers. Cooperation with the old machines was no longer acceptable, the geth prime tells you this on Earth if he is there. Control takes away all weight behind synthetic life because it basically says you are willing to control it in order to keep it from ever rising up and causing problems. Synthesis enforces the incorrect assertion by the catalyst that Synthetics and organics can not coexist without being forced to.

In Control, you consume the Reapers. In Synthesis you consume everyone and take way their free will. Either way, you devalue life. Destroy is the only one that gives it any weight, because it brings the geth full circle, and does what they and EDI were always willing to do: to die for the right to self-determinate and to be free, whether in life or in death.

[xsamplexample]

Synthesis is the great enigma or Mass Effect. We need some DLC about the Crucible to explain how synthesis could be possible, even in this fictional setting.

Synthesis might have been the original crucible designer's (leviathans, IMO) attempt at satisfying the intelligence without destroying it and the reapers (since a reaper IS a whole specie, technically).

The reapers try their version of synthesis, while at the same time assuring that no specie advances far enough to create AIs. The crucible was intended to facilitate synthesis. As different factions over different cycles added to the idea, control/destroy were added.

the catalyst only mentions synthesis if you have a high EMS, which probably means you did the paragon path and cured the genophage, united geth/quarian, etc.
Thats what it means by 'you are ready'. sure its a crazy, unknown choice. Sure its what the reapers have been preaching, but its up to you.

for the record, I believe in IT, so the synthesis ending is a reaper-induced euphoric state. This was the same vision that Saren, Rana, and so many other saw; trust in that idea /Reapers.... Dont trust Synthesis.

[CosmicGnosis]

RiptideX1090 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

See, that's great and all... until I realize that I just validated Javik's anti-synthetic ideology. And there also a lot of people in the forum who care about synthetic life the way I do. People like Javik would never hesitate to choose Destroy. And that's why I get the sense that there's something very wrong with Destroy, that there's a sickening philosophy buried beneath the validation of organic life.

If anything, Destroy validates synthetic life. It gives it weight and meaning. In control, all you prove is that synthetic life is worthy of being controlled and enslaved, I'm sure Xen would be proud. In Synthesis, you spit on organics and synthetics by saying there is no way they can ever be equals unless you force them to.

I've argued that same point in the past, and it's definitely compelling. But... the galaxy hates synthetic life. If anything, their sacrifice is tragically ironic. The geth and EDI, the beings that fought so hard for their own self-determination, are the collateral damage of an act that liberates an organic-dominated galaxy that denies the personhood of synthetics.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:57 .

[AdmiralCheez]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I've argued that same point in the past, and it's definitely compelling. But... the galaxy hates synthetic life. If anything, their sacrifice is tragically ironic. The geth and EDI, the beings that fought so hard for their own self-determination, are the collatoral damage of an act that liberates an organic-dominated galaxy that denies the personhood of synthetics.

Which is why the endings are so dumb: ALL of them are based on the Catalyst's assumption that metalheads and meatbags can never get along, something we disproved ourselves by playing the damn game.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:54 .

[Xilizhra]

You think he's going to make good on that knowing the Reapers are still alive and in control, knowing that the person whom he trusted to take them down became one of them instead?

The harvest is over. Peace has been achieved. There are no longer any objective nightmares; if someone chooses to continue fearing the Reapers, so be it. His response is his choice.

Uh, most people who picked Destruction regret the loss of EDI and the geth?

Hello?

We've been over this?

Ah, yes, forgive me. Guilt-inducing cannon fodder. It makes them far less dead.

[Xellith]

There are some people out there with enough "war assets" in MP to make all the "wrong choices" and still get synthesis.

Because of this the whole "united galaxy = ready for synthesis" argument is false.

What determines whether the galaxy is ready or not is an arbitrary number. Its a poorly implimented system and so you cant use any events in anyones playthrough to gauge what "being ready" truly means.

Modifié par Xellith, 18 octobre 2012 - 02:54 .

[RiptideX1090]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I've argued that same point in the past, and it's definitely compelling. But... the galaxy hates synthetic life. If anything, their sacrifice is tragically ironic. The geth and EDI, the beings that fought so hard for their own self-determination, are the collatoral damage of an act that liberates an organic-dominated galaxy that denies the personhood of synthetics.

And what do you think people will say about that when it's over? If the quarians were starting to come around after agreeing to a ceasefire, if Tali was able to see reason after meeting Legion, what do you think people are going to have to say once they learn it was the AI that gave their lives to free and save everyone?

You can take the cynical route and say they learned nothing, but I don't think so. I think, after everything the galaxy has been through and all the good we managed, showing the Krogan can live in peace, that there can be peace between organics and synthetics, I think people will be more open to the idea of cooperation with AI. Because it's been proven that it can be done.

[Xilizhra]

The meaning is that they were willing to be sacrificed for all species to self-determinate, and to be free of the Reapers. Cooperation with the old machines was no longer acceptable, the geth prime tells you this on Earth if he is there. Control takes away all weight behind synthetic life because it basically says you are willing to control it in order to keep it from ever rising up and causing problems. Synthesis enforces the incorrect assertion by the catalyst that Synthetics and organics can not coexist without being forced to.

In Control, you consume the Reapers. In Synthesis you consume everyone and take way their free will. Either way, you devalue life. Destroy is the only one that gives it any weight, because it brings the geth full circle, and does what they and EDI were always willing to do: to die for the right to self-determinate and to be free, whether in life or in death.

I'm not discriminating against synthetic life in Control; that issue has nothing to do with synthetics. And I don't really care if they're willing to be sacrificed or not; I'm not obliterating the entire species, and I will preserve the memories and history of the Reapers and the potential of the Collectors, and defend the galaxy in the postwar period in the bargain.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

The harvest is over. Peace has been achieved. There are no longer any objective nightmares; if someone chooses to continue fearing the Reapers, so be it. His response is his choice.

He won't be the only one.  There will be mass rebellions against you, O Great Overlord.  The people of the galaxy don't like being ruled, especially not by the monsters that took their homes and loved ones from them.

Ah, yes, forgive me. Guilt-inducing cannon fodder. It makes them far less dead.

That's what it felt like to me, like the writers threw it in there just to add a drawback to force people to go for the other options.  Hence, headcanon!  Headcanon fixes everything!

[Xilizhra]

He won't be the only one. There will be mass rebellions against you, O Great Overlord. The people of the galaxy don't like being ruled, especially not by the monsters that took their homes and loved ones from them.

Strange that there are no rebellions in the ending. Likely because I'm not having the Reapers swooping overhead to enforce the Law all the time; they're an emergency force only.

That's what it felt like to me, like the writers threw it in there just to add a drawback to force people to go for the other options. Hence, headcanon! Headcanon fixes everything!

Ditto, I say, for Control's apparent separation of identity and Synthesis' weirdness.

[Xellith]

Xilizhra wrote...

He won't be the only one. There will be mass rebellions against you, O Great Overlord. The people of the galaxy don't like being ruled, especially not by the monsters that took their homes and loved ones from them.

Strange that there are no rebellions in the ending. Likely because I'm not having the Reapers swooping overhead to enforce the Law all the time; they're an emergency force only.

 Once you pick control - you die. Its an AI that controls the reapers and decides to swoop or not to swoop.  But that said - if synthesis will allow each reaper to be an individual, is that apart of the reapers that kept in check by the catalyst?

Your police force would be comprised of obedient slaves.

Modifié par Xellith, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:03 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Strange that there are no rebellions in the ending. Likely because I'm not having the Reapers swooping overhead to enforce the Law all the time; they're an emergency force only.

Pssh, please.  You're only seeing the immediate aftermath, and most of the slides are independent of your final decision anyway.  Synthesis is the only way to end conflict for sure.

Ditto, I say, for Control's apparent separation of identity and Synthesis' weirdness.

Well, Control is whack regardless of Shepard's continuity of existence.  Synthesis is weird because it was poorly thought out and doesn't match the rest of the lore/narrative.

[Xilizhra]

Pssh, please. You're only seeing the immediate aftermath, and most of the slides are independent of your final decision anyway. Synthesis is the only way to end conflict for sure.

A city on Rannoch is "immediate?" Massive krogan construction projects are immediate? If anything, all they prove is that the final choice doesn't necessarily change much around the galaxy as a whole. No organized rebellions will be coming anytime soon, and none will be necessary.

Well, Control is whack regardless of Shepard's continuity of existence. Synthesis is weird because it was poorly thought out and doesn't match the rest of the lore/narrative.

I disagree with Control being "whack." No moreso, at any rate, than Destroy. Probably it'd be less so if Shepard was fully alive.

[Malanek]

There seem to be a lot of assumptions over what synthesis actually is in this thread. Even with the extended cut it isn't really explained. Epilogue slides give hints but the majority is left to the players imagination.

Personally, I think it was silly. At the time without the benefit of hindsight I dismissed it immediately as something that was far too risky and immoral to even consider. After looking at the epilogue slides months later it shows you some sort of utopian world but I just can't help feeling that was biowares response to almost complete dismissal of it from the player base. And they are only hints.

With the benefit of total hindsight, you can make a case for Synthesis being "the best" ending, and the OP actually did a good job of that. But I'm never going to accept it. IMO it was definitely the worst written and conceived from a literary view (not that the others were that great). I didn't like it at the time and I don't like it now.

[_aLucidMind_]

Synthesis would have made far more sense had one of the conflicts been that the Reapers represented unity without individuality while Shepard and allies represented unity with individuality; conflict being "which is better". Synthesis in this regard could have been the decision of considering that everyone being a Reaper was ultimately the best option.

[Eterna]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Strange that there are no rebellions in the ending. Likely because I'm not having the Reapers swooping overhead to enforce the Law all the time; they're an emergency force only.

Pssh, please.  You're only seeing the immediate aftermath, and most of the slides are independent of your final decision anyway.  Synthesis is the only way to end conflict for sure.

And how exactly would conflict continue in Control? What Reason do organics have to attack seemingly passive Reapers who are helping them rebuild?

Will there be conflict? Maybe, but it would quickly be squashed. 

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

A city on Rannoch is "immediate?" Massive krogan construction projects are immediate? If anything, all they prove is that the final choice doesn't necessarily change much around the galaxy as a whole. No organized rebellions will be coming anytime soon, and none will be necessary.

And that was laziness on Bioware's part (but hey, free DLC).  But seriously, name five characters that would be totally okay with the Reapers ruling the galaxy.

Because they enslaved Liara's mother.
Garrus watched his hometown burn from orbit.
They turned Samara's daughter into a monster.
They threatened Jack's students.
They destroyed Javik's civilization.
They perverted Legion's people.
Their methods and reasoning disgusted EDI.
What they'd done to the protheans disgusted Mordin.
...  And they ruined Zaeed's retirement plan.

I disagree with Control being "whack." No moreso, at any rate, than Destroy. Probably it'd be less so if Shepard was fully alive.

So even if Destroy had no drawbacks, you'd pick Control?  U creepy, bro.

[AdmiralCheez]

Eterna5 wrote...

And how exactly would conflict continue in Control? What Reason do organics have to attack seemingly passive Reapers who are helping them rebuild?

Uhhh, they're Reapers?  You expect everybody to just get over it and accept their new overlords?

Will there be conflict? Maybe, but it would quickly be squashed.

Enjoy the squashing.

[_aLucidMind_]

Eterna5 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Strange that there are no rebellions in the ending. Likely because I'm not having the Reapers swooping overhead to enforce the Law all the time; they're an emergency force only.

Pssh, please.  You're only seeing the immediate aftermath, and most of the slides are independent of your final decision anyway.  Synthesis is the only way to end conflict for sure.

And how exactly would conflict continue in Control? What Reason do organics have to attack seemingly passive Reapers who are helping them rebuild?

Will there be conflict? Maybe, but it would quickly be squashed. 

The reason is simple; humans are irrational and idiotic by nature. Some idiot will certainly attack, and it certainly doesn't help that you humans are all racists =p

[Xilizhra]

And that was laziness on Bioware's part (but hey, free DLC). But seriously, name five characters that would be totally okay with the Reapers ruling the galaxy.

The old Reapers' plans are no more, because those were all the work of the original Catalyst, who is now gone. Although I don't plan to "rule," it wouldn't be a question of whether they'd be all right with the Reapers in charge, but with me in charge. If they're rational, they'll accept it; if not, it's not my concern, though I hope they do accept it.

So even if Destroy had no drawbacks, you'd pick Control? U creepy, bro.

Destroy is a drawback, namely the death of all the Reapers. I'd prefer to avoid it; the geth genocide just bolsters my arguments.

[Eterna]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

And how exactly would conflict continue in Control? What Reason do organics have to attack seemingly passive Reapers who are helping them rebuild?

Uhhh, they're Reapers?  You expect everybody to just get over it and accept their new overlords?

Of course not. But you're trying to tell me that Organic races are going to drive themselves to extinction out of principal. Ridiculous. Especially considering the Epilogues slides completely debunk your assertion. 

The reason is simple; humans are irrational and idiotic by nature. Some idiot will certainly attack, and it certainly doesn't help that you humans are all racists =p

Think of the Shepalyst as the Government and the Reapers as the police Force. Do common civillians attack the Police because they enforce the law? Do common people begrudge the Police because they prevent you from commiting murder?

 Why then would people oppose a force that enforces peace?

Modifié par Eterna5, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:31 .

[CosmicGnosis]

It's threads like these that suggest that the Extended Cut didn't clarify a damn thing.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 octobre 2012 - 03:38 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

The old Reapers' plans are no more, because those were all the work of the original Catalyst, who is now gone. Although I don't plan to "rule," it wouldn't be a question of whether they'd be all right with the Reapers in charge, but with me in charge. If they're rational, they'll accept it; if not, it's not my concern, though I hope they do accept it.

Shepard is dead.  You admit that you don't care whether or not your subjects are willing.  You may believe you are in the right, but so does every other dictator, and you (or rather a synthetic copy of you) have more power than all of those dictators combined.

At least in Synthesis the new meta-organism can make its own choices without fear of being crushed from on high.

Destroy is a drawback, namely the death of all the Reapers. I'd prefer to avoid it; the geth genocide just bolsters my arguments.

So you'd risk the free galaxy on behalf of the Reapers, whom you enslave anyway?  Okay, whatever.

[Eterna]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Its threads like these that suggest that the Extended Cut didn't clarify a damn thing.

No the EC clarified things perfectly. The problem is that people refuse to take things at face value and twist what they see to suit there viewpoints. They purposely ignore what's there and instead choose to promote their own assumption as fact. 

[Xilizhra]

Shepard is dead. You admit that you don't care whether or not your subjects are willing. You may believe you are in the right, but so does every other dictator, and you (or rather a synthetic copy of you) have more power than all of those dictators combined.

You're talking about separate issues. If they don't want me there as the Catalyst regardless of the Reapers' own nature, because they just dislike me having that power period, then that's a completely different issue. However, given that the Council isn't really a democracy either, I don't think the waves caused would be that big.

So you'd risk the free galaxy on behalf of the Reapers, whom you enslave anyway? Okay, whatever.

I'd prefer Synthesis over Control if it was better explained. And I've taken plenty of risks before in my Paragoning time.