330 réponses à ce sujet

[grumpymooselion]

One wonders exactly how any exalted march ever succeeded against an army that had no bones on a social level about used blood magic, or consorting with demons/becoming abominations . . . If you think about it Templars in the modern DA settings have proven themselves utterly ineffective against even the weak Blood Mages and Abominations that didn't have time, resources or instruction needed to develop their power. The current state of affairs seems more like, 'because the writer said so' than because of any manner in which the exalted marches could have possibly succeeded. Yeah, Andraste, I get it . . . but there's considerable question still as to all of that. The reality is we haven't seem someone like Andraste since, so I don't think that applies and Adraste herself has so much question as to what was actually going on there . . .

Okay, so it wasn't just Andraste, we need to remember when she lead the first exalted march the Imperium was severely weakened by the first blight, so that sort of weighs into it. All in all I actually don't find it convincing that she did what she did through any normal means, and that lots of Adraste's story are highly edited to cover up what she really was, not an escaped slave or the wife of the Maker but a Mage of extraordinary power. I don't put a lot of stock in the Maker myth either though, as, even if the Maker is real, I've never found it particularly kind or forgiving in reading up on it, and found that it was more prone to turning its back on Humans and its followers alike . . . than any sort of helping of its followers. Wife of the Maker? Nah. Powerful mage, but still a flawed human being who exaggerations and lies surround? Definitely. Certainly more convincing than the Maker turned back to Humanity (and then turned away from them again when 'some' people burned her) because she sang.

So, okay, it makes a little sense, multiple disasters befalling the Imperium at once, and a very powerful mage taking advantage of the turmoil to cut a swath through them? That makes sense. But a bunch of bumbling fanatics addicted to lyrium that can't even handle apprentice blood mages doing the same thing? Never going to buy that.

[Solmanian]

You do understand that there isn't anything that indicates Andraste ever did anything supernatural? Yeah everyone thinks she's awesomesauce, but you can't claim she was "god-emperor" style most powerfull mage in history when she never actually did any spells... It's only said that her campaign against tevinter was successful thanks to a string of natural disasters. The only person ever claiming she was a mage was an appostate who lived centuries after she died.

it's ok to believe those natural disasters were coincindences and not divine intervention/retribution, but jumping to witchcraft is a really big leap. Even if it was magical occurences, there's really nothing to prove that it was Andraste casting those spells, it could be a sympathising mage.

If you're wondering what makes me so sure she wasn't a mage? Statistics. If theoritacly the mage ratio in the population is something like 1 in 1000, than there's a 99.9% that Andraste was yet aother religious nutjob that uses the "god told me to" line as an excuse (you know, like leliana?).

If you told me Flemeth was the one that caused those seemingly natural disaster, it would still be baseless speculation, but atleast it would be plausible: she had the means and was in the neighbourhood. It still superficial evidence, but at least plausible.

[kumquats]

I will support the Dwarfs. Don't know on which side they are yet, but they have my full support.
On which side are the Dwarfs anyway?

[grumpymooselion]

Solmanian wrote...

You do understand that there isn't anything that indicates Andraste ever did anything supernatural? Yeah everyone thinks she's awesomesauce, but you can't claim she was "god-emperor" style most powerfull mage in history when she never actually did any spells...

Everything I said was out of one of the two games, actually, from the characters and lore bits you could read up on. The bit about Andraste being a Mage is literally out of DA:O.

It's only said that her campaign against tevinter was successful thanks to a string of natural disasters.

That was one account. There are actually three full accounts, and two more slight variations on two of those three views of what happened. I'm not sure why you only seem familiar with one of them, but if you don't feel like playing through the games again, all the information is available online.

when she never actually did any spells...

That you know of.

If there was a record that she did . . . how long do you think the very anti-Mage sentiment would let that record survive? What do you think they'd do the people that spoke of what she actually was? Would they be silenced by force or fear or a combination of both? Of course, if she were a Mage, and her people were very anti-mage they'd never let it be known, and they themselves likely would seen anything magical she did as something else given their idealizaed vision of her.

She works better as a non-mage martyr for them.

And really, why wouldn't I believe an apostate mage's view of her, over that of the Templars and Chantry whose organizations are rife with deceit and lies, with fanaticism in place of true faith and strict doctrine in place of any actual knowledge.

[DragonAgeLegend]

Maybe Tevinter magisters? I'm REALLY hoping Tevinter becomes involved in the rebellion and somehow declare war with Orlais. That would be amazing to see.

[BouncyFrag]

It depends if they get their crap together and can at least go 30 minutes before turning into an abomination.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Elves might step in, Tevinter imperium. Orleais might step in too but only for their own agenda.
Grey Wardens are 50/50, they have magi too, but they have few mages.

[HolyAvenger]

BouncyFrag wrote...

It depends if they get their crap together and can at least go 30 minutes before turning into an abomination.

 

Pretty much this. 

[CoffeeHolic93]

HolyAvenger wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

It depends if they get their crap together and can at least go 30 minutes before turning into an abomination.

 

Pretty much this. 

+1 I don't have a lot of sympathy after DAII

[Chiramu]

Terrorize69 wrote...

HeriocGreyWarden wrote...

Are you retarded,OP?Seekers want peace,they are not on the templar side.

Wrong.

With the dissolution of the Circle of Magi, Lord Seeker Lambert declared the Nevarran Accord
null and void in 9:40 Dragon. By separating the Seekers of Truth and
the Templar Order from Chantry authority, Lambert claims sole
responsibility for managing the mage situation in Thedas. Following this
dissolution, a templar host marches on the newly independent mages
gathered at the fortress of Andoral's Reach, effectively starting the Mage-Templar War.

Only some Seekers remained loyal to the Chantry, Aka Cass's group. Most left to fight the war. Be careful who you call retarded, even more so when your wrong. It sorta backfires.

I wish Lambert was written with less of a villain in mind for his character. He was turning out quite well and then Gaider just decided to paint him all black. I don't like what happened with the writing of his character arc, I think it could've been a lot better than how it was published.

Anyway, what do the mages expect to gain from fighting at that place anyway? Like Lambert said, camp out the front and starve them out.

Modifié par Chiramu, 10 avril 2013 - 11:45 .

[Solmanian]

Janan Pacha wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

You do understand that there isn't anything that indicates Andraste ever did anything supernatural? Yeah everyone thinks she's awesomesauce, but you can't claim she was "god-emperor" style most powerfull mage in history when she never actually did any spells...

Everything I said was out of one of the two games, actually, from the characters and lore bits you could read up on. The bit about Andraste being a Mage is literally out of DA:O.

It's reminded as an opinion of a single appostate mage, one dissmissed by mages and non-mages alike...

It's only said that her campaign against tevinter was successful thanks to a string of natural disasters.

That was one account. There are actually three full accounts, and two more slight variations on two of those three views of what happened. I'm not sure why you only seem familiar with one of them, but if you don't feel like playing through the games again, all the information is available online.

The account I'm relying on is Andraste's entry in the dragon age wiki that is based on her codex entry, which is a s close to canon as you get. If you have other accounts which you think are of equal validity or more, present them.

when she never actually did any spells...

That you know of.

If there was a record that she did . . . how long do you think the very anti-Mage sentiment would let that record survive? What do you think they'd do the people that spoke of what she actually was? Would they be silenced by force or fear or a combination of both? Of course, if she were a Mage, and her people were very anti-mage they'd never let it be known, and they themselves likely would seen anything magical she did as something else given their idealizaed vision of her.

She works better as a non-mage martyr for them.

And really, why wouldn't I believe an apostate mage's view of her, over that of the Templars and Chantry whose organizations are rife with deceit and lies, with fanaticism in place of true faith and strict doctrine in place of any actual knowledge.

"That you know of"? How is that different than the salem witches trials? "We didn't see her cast spells, and have noone claiming that she cast spells, but she could've"? I could claim that you caused the tsunami that hit japan; you don't have a motive, and there isn't any indication of you having the ability to do that, magical or otherwise. But hey, you can't prove you didn't! You don't have proof of you not causing "natural" disasters, than you must be guilty!

As I said, considering mages ratio in the population, 99.9% is considered beyond reasonable doubt in any court. You can't just claim something is the most likely scenario just because you'd like it to be; you whole speculation relies on a 1 in a thousand chance for her to even qualify to the minimal requirement: for andraste being a mage, let alone the most powerfull one in history. She's just as likely to be an alien.
I noticed you conveniently ignored the "Flemeth scenario", which is a hundred times more likely...

[Beerfish]

I support da mages, from a rope hangin from a tree. Me sister in law Beatrice, a fine woman she was. Life was hard on the farm so she went an got a position as a skullery maid in da Redcliffe castle. She says 'Can ya imagine dat, me a poor farm girl working for the Redcliffe royalty and fine people they are, kind as can be and it pays so handsomely!'

An den a mage got involved, demons and alike and she was killed in a most orrible fashion. They wouldn't even let me brother see da body it was so bad. No sir, we all know them mages are trouble and we all agreed in our village that we'd string em up if they ever came around here.

I spit on their graves I do, i hope the Templars kill em all or keep em in chains.

[Androme]

I think most factions that are not directly involved in the war will be seeking to stop the conflict before it results in tearing the veil completely apart or something horrible like that, I can imagine the Warden (if alive) and Hawke (by this point, despite choosing a side in DA2) will be working towards ending the conflict by whatever means neccecary.

[eye basher]

The mages and the templar are just pawns on someones gameboard someone is hiding behind the scenes taking advantage of this little war and is probably thereason why the inquisition is getting involved.

[DarthLaxian]

hm...

who will help the mages?

well, we have:

1. Tevinther (they will - behind the scenes, not openly, they do not want the templars attention or the chantry's)

2. Some Templars that know that how they went about killing and supressing mages

3. some dwarfs (magic can help them against the darkspawn in return)

4. local lords who want power

5. elfs in return for help

...

greeting Lax

[Sutamina]

the families of those mages
the people who want certain services only mages can provide like healing

[Lord Raijin]

I will support the mages

[Laughing_Man]

Necro'ing threads without adding anything meaningfull to them, is a surefire way to get them locked.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Justinia wouldn't give the mages freedom from the Chantry, her "help" is poisonous. Would she be willing to do so to bring peace? I suppose we'll see in the next game, unless she dies at the beginning.

If mages won't accept Chantry oversight, then their existance is poisonous and their life is forefit.

[TEWR]

I support diplomatic resolution first as the Inquisitor, ideals second.

If diplomacy fails, ideals thrive.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Janan Pacha wrote...

One wonders exactly how any exalted march ever succeeded against an army that had no bones on a social level about used blood magic, or consorting with demons/becoming abominations . . . If you think about it Templars in the modern DA settings have proven themselves utterly ineffective against even the weak Blood Mages and Abominations that didn't have time, resources or instruction needed to develop their power.

Not really.

Temaplrs are the msot effective foil to mages - both normal and blood mages.
The difference is that for a normal mages, they can stop him entirely from casting spells by depleting his mana.
A blood mage can resort to using blood to pwoer his spells.
But templars still have high magic resistance and can still hurt a blood mage with their abiltities.

And abominations are lore-wise monsters thet are FAR more powerfull than those you see in-game.
Compunded with the fact that the circle in Ferelden was overrun with them, but the temaplrs still sealed them in and were about to purge the tower, I cannot see the templar faliure there.

[Medhia Nox]

@Janan Pacha: Higher blood magic is self-destructive.. see: Avernus

It calls demons - demons are immune to it (and evidently think it's HELLarious stuff - get it, because demons are from... never mind.)

======

I do not support either faction.

I support the Inquisition.

Any mage who want to put aside their rebellion to join the Inquisition is welcomed to.

[Xilizhra]

@Janan Pacha: Higher blood magic is self-destructive.. see: Avernus

It calls demons - demons are immune to it (and evidently think it's HELLarious stuff - get it, because demons are from... never mind.)

If you use it to deliberately summon demons, sure. Sometimes. Other times, mages have a pretty firm grip on demons; Quentin and Danarius, for instance, were able to summon several without being attacked themselves. It also seems to be much safer to bind demons to corpses than it is to let them run freely, as we've never seen undead attack those who've animated them (of course, the Animate Dead spell casts a doubting light on that being blood magic to begin with, but it seems to be used that way).

[Boycott Bioware]

It have been a year isn't it? It feel like just yesterday...

[dragonflight288]

I'll take it situation by situation in Inquisition. If I feel the mages are more in the right, I'll support them. If I feel the templars in the Chantry are more in the right, I'll support them. If I think they're both idiots, I'll call for diplomacy, in which case all that means is I'll likely conscript everyone on both sides and force them to follow my rules.