330 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Separating mages from society at large while still treating them humanely is quite possible.

Maybe, but not with templars. Or the Chantry.

Neither of which equals mindless thugs.

Well, not literally mindless; they're not darkspawn. But disinclined to question or to possess morals based around much other than divine rule of mages.

[marshalleck]

Xilizhra wrote...

The templars spell out the recruitment of mindless jackbooted thugs in their own codex entry. They specifically look for people of zealous faith without much of an inclination to morality or questioning.

The common foot soldiers perhaps, but it can't be the entire organization. Leadership incapable of independently reasoning through ambiguous situations doesn't result in said organization existing for nearly a millennia.

The point remains however, almost every time we see a mage go bad, it's because of some external factor and not their own doing. If Bioware want to deliver a "mature dark fantasy" experience they could stop pulling their punches, creating comic book villains who are Evil due to demonic possession or mad with power. They could give us a villain who is just a rotten, opportunistic, unempathic human being--you know, kind of like the scum and ****s of real life. There are plenty of flaws and foibles in the human character. Demonic possession and blood magic aren't the only way to make a mage antagonistic and unsympathetic.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 octobre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Terrorize69]

Except you have no way of knowing who will be born with magic powers untill they are tested or show signs, mages will never be in only one place, magic will always find its way into a Templar society.

[Terrorize69]

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

[Xilizhra]

The common foot soldiers perhaps, but it can't be the entire organization. Leadership incapable of independently reasoning through ambiguous situations doesn't result in said organization existing for almost two millennia.

True, the leadership consists of thoughtfully ruthless killers like Lambert, as well as unstable lunatics-to-be like Meredith and banally meticulous mini-tyrants like Greagoir. But as of now, the templar of rank we've seen with the most capacity for independent thought, Evangeline, expressed it by leaving the Order.

The point remains however, almost every time we see a mage go bad, it's because of some external factor and not their own doing. If Bioware want to deliver a "mature dark fantasy" experience they could stop pulling their punches, creating comic book villains who are Evil due to demonic possession or mad with power. They could give us a villain who is just a rotten, opportunistic, unempathic human being--there are plenty of flaws and foibles in the human character. Demonic possession and blood magic aren't the only way to make a mage antagonistic and unsympathetic.

Blood magic isn't inherently insanity-inducing, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. In any case, we've already had plenty of villains who fit your description, like Rendon Howe.

[KENNY4753]

Terrorize69 wrote...

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

Good Question. I would think there would be a mix of elves on each side but it seems more likely they would go with the mages or run and join the Dalish

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Maybe, but not with templars. Or the Chantry.

Sure it is. Mages were separated from mundanes while still being treated humanely for over 900 years.

Well, not literally mindless; they're not darkspawn. But disinclined to question or to possess morals based around much other than divine rule of mages.

"Divine Rule" is mentioned...once by one templar. Most templars join because they realize the dangers mages represent.
This supposed "lack of morals" is because templars need to be capable to drag a child out of its home if need be. There is little room for bleeding hearts.

[LobselVith8]

Terrorize69 wrote...

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

People who don't worship the Maker are viewed as "heathens," like the Dalish elves and the Dwarves. I think some of the Dalish could be persuaded with the promise of getting back the Dales. Anders does say that he thinks that the Alienage elves should fight with the mages for their rights.

[General User]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Justinia has, up until now, been a major advocate for mage imprisonment. Will this change? We'll see.

Separating mages from society at large while still treating them humanely is quite possible.

Quite so.  Divine Justinia understands that the nature and dangers of magic means that, in the interest of the public good, mages simply cannot be allowed the same freedoms and privilages that others enjoy.  Yet, at the same time, she recognizes that mages are people and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.   She see's (correctly) that the Chantry's role is to make sure that both these purposes are served.  As indeed the Chantry is the only organization in Thedas capable of doing so on an international scale.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

No, they aren't. City elves worship the Maker and have the freedom to join any public organization, whether it be the city guard, the clerics or the templars. It just doesn't happen very often because there is still much racial hatred between humans and elves.

[Xilizhra]

Sure it is. Mages were separated from mundanes while still being treated humanely for over 900 years.

That's because your definition of "humane" is very far from accurate.

"Divine Rule" is mentioned...once by one templar. Most templars join because they realize the dangers mages represent.
This supposed "lack of morals" is because templars need to be capable to drag a child out of its home if need be. There is little room for bleeding hearts.

Divine right is mentioned by Cullen, the alleged poster boy of templar reasonableness. As for the other thing... well, it's just another reason the Order needs to be eradicated. I'll accept surrenders, but nothing of this atrocity must survive.

As indeed the Chantry is the only organization in Thedas capable of doing so on an international scale.

Then a new organization will have to be founded, because I will never allow the Chantry to repeat its crimes.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:04 .

[brushyourteeth]

MisterJB wrote...

"Divine Rule" is mentioned...once by one templar. Most templars join because they realize the dangers mages represent.
This supposed "lack of morals" is because templars need to be capable to drag a child out of its home if need be. There is little room for bleeding hearts.

I have to disagree. A decent, humane introduction into the Chantry system can mean the difference between that person becoming a respectable member of society in a specialized role or something much darker. It can mean the difference between a Wynne (who was treated kindly by one of her Templars - he gave her candy and lifted her on his shoulders for a better view) and a Cole (who was handled rougly, locked in a dark cell where rats ate away at him, and left to die).

Rhys says it as well - (paraphrased) what if mages had been there at the tower to welcome Cole and explain his new life?

[Terrorize69]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

People who don't worship the Maker are viewed as "heathens," like the Dalish elves and the Dwarves. I think some of the Dalish could be persuaded with the promise of getting back the Dales. Anders does say that he thinks that the Alienage elves should fight with the mages for their rights.

Yep, basically.

Mages are more, understanding? About those that don't worship the maker, mostly cause they are scorned for the gifts the maker gives them. Circle Mages could be elven and human alike and get on well.

Logically, we can be led to belief elves that for the best part would side with mages. Templars threaten Dalish Keepers, I think we can rule out them supporting those that would kill or imprison their leaders.

Oh and...

Justinia V is a Tevinter agent, just saying. *hums*

[marshalleck]

Xilizhra wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently insanity-inducing, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. In any case, we've already had plenty of villains who fit your description, like Rendon Howe.

Rendon Howe is a perfect example, except he wasn't a mage. People like Rendon Howe can and have been taken down when the peasantry is pushed far enough. You don't need a specialized military order to bring them back in line when they get out of hand.

What happens when you have someone like Rendon Howe, who has magical ability? Rendon was bad enough; imagine if he could conjure fireballs at will. A character such as this would demonstrate the specific utility of Templars, and why their order came to be in the first place. Not just because the writers want some big meanies to take away all the mages' fun.

All we get to supposedly demonstrate the "danger" of mages is people who have been trod on and abused by Templar stormtroopers, who finally snap and start boiling people's blood and summoning demons. It really removes the situation from an unfortunately gritty and ugly depiction of a realistic conflict (in so much as humans can naturally come into conflict), and takes it to the realm of fanciful comic books and revenge fantasies. 

I guess my point is this: show the Templars actually accomplishing something for the common good, and maybe then they will have more sympathetic voices on the forums.

Modifié par marshalleck, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:10 .

[MisterJB]

brushyourteeth wrote...
I have to disagree. A decent, humane introduction into the Chantry system can mean the difference between that person becoming a respectable member of society in a specialized role or something much darker. It can mean the difference between a Wynne (who was treated kindly by one of her Templars - he gave her candy and lifted her on his shoulders for a better view) and a Cole (who was handled rougly, locked in a dark cell where rats ate away at him, and left to die).

Rhys says it as well - (paraphrased) what if mages had been there at the tower to welcome Cole and explain his new life?

I am 100% in favor of taking both mages and templars to the houses of newly discovered mages; sitting with their parents and attempt to explain why their child must be taken for the common good.
Naturally, if despite all this, the family still refuses to let the mage go, obviously s/he must be forced to go.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:08 .

[KENNY4753]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Justinia V is a Tevinter agent, just saying. *hums*

I always suspected her of being a mage and actually the real mastermind behing the mage-templar war.

[AresKeith]

Templars are never good, just ask Assassins Creed lol

I support the mages

[Xilizhra]

All we get to supposedly demonstrate the "danger" of mages is people who have been trod on and abused by Templar stormtroopers, who finally snap and start boiling people's blood and summoning demons. It really removes the situation from an unfortunately gritty and ugly depiction of a realistic conflict, and takes it to the realm of fanciful comic books and revenge fantasies.

What, it's not realistic for rebellions to turn ugly because the oppressed are pushed too far? And for that to be a theme in the current story? I fail to see how.

I guess my point is this: show the Templars actually accomplishing something for the common good, and maybe then they will have more sympathetic voices on the forums.

I think it's trying to make a point that the templars are actually doing very little to help the common good. Where you see an omission of bad writing, I believe it's quite deliberate.
In any case, there still are mages like that too: the Tevinter magisters. Caladrius and Danarius both qualify; Hadriana had abuse issues so you might not count her. Then there are some more minor ones like Danzig and Fell Orden.

[TK514]

While the Templars may have taken their roles to an unpleasant extreme, the reasoning behind segregating mages remains sound. Mage cirles are basically leper colonies. And just as you wouldn't allow a leper to roam freely amongst an uninfected populace in the 17th century, you wouldn't allow a mage, who is one bad day away from losing control and killing a town, to wander freely. This is particularly true of young untrained mages, though not exclusive to them. Connor and Uldred, both from DA:O, are excellent examples of why the Circle exists. Could the Templars have been less oppressive? Sure. But at the same time, they have to be willing to do what is necessary should the worst come to pass.

However, that's off topic. I can imagine the Qunari agreeing with the Templars, while the Tevinter Imperium 'supports' the Mage Uprising. I see Starkhaven supporting the Chantry specifically, rather than taking a side. Ferelden will depend on how the crown sorted itself out in DA:O, while the Wardens, Dalish and Dwarves will remain neutral. I see Kirkwall supporting the Templars, thanks to Anders (and to a lesser extent Orsino). Antiva will support whoever pays the Crows the most.

I doubt the mages are completely without potential allies, but, given centuries of fear from general society, they should have a much harder time winning over organized support from larger power groups or the common man.

[Rinshikai10]

General User wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Justinia has, up until now, been a major advocate for mage imprisonment. Will this change? We'll see.

Separating mages from society at large while still treating them humanely is quite possible.

Quite so.  Divine Justinia understands that the nature and dangers of magic means that, in the interest of the public good, mages simply cannot be allowed the same freedoms and privilages that others enjoy.  Yet, at the same time, she recognizes that mages are people and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.   She see's (correctly) that the Chantry's role is to make sure that both these purposes are served.  As indeed the Chantry is the only organization in Thedas capable of doing so on an international scale.

Aren't the Grey Wardens more widespeard then the Chantry? I know that they are focused on the Darkspawn, but after Awawkening they appear to be showing others that they are capable of governing arlings, nations, or possibly Cicles without allowing faith to rule them.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
That's because your definition of "humane" is very far from accurate.

Every person has a different definition of what is good or evil. And yours is no better than any other.

Divine right is mentioned by Cullen, the alleged poster boy of templar reasonableness. As for the other thing... well, it's just another reason the Order needs to be eradicated. I'll accept surrenders, but nothing of this atrocity must survive.

Personally, I much prefer Greagoir.
So, only the attrocities commited by mages must survive, then?

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

And on topic, what about city elves? They desire freedom and the right to be treated as equals just like mages do, would they throw their lot in with mages?

Templars wouldn't take them, they are heathens in the eyes of the Order.

No, they aren't. City elves worship the Maker and have the freedom to join any public organization, whether it be the city guard, the clerics or the templars. It just doesn't happen very often because there is still much racial hatred between humans and elves.

Though overall treatment varies kingdom to kingdom, city elves are
universally held as second-class citizens. Elves are unable to join most
legal organizations like the Chantry, and the law often shows a blind
eye to their woes.

Having been heavily discriminated by humans for so long, most city elves
try to hold onto their remaining heritage. Artifacts from Arlathan
like the vhenadahl (literally, "tree of the People") and an abiding deep
pride in their close-knit communities bolster city elves trying to make
ends meet in an otherwise hostile world.

This. And I've yet to see a elf in the city that isn't a begger or a servant. Or one that worships the Maker. The only reason most citys have them is cheap labour.

[Xilizhra]

Every person has a different definition of what is good or evil. And yours is no better than any other.

Yes, and?

Personally, I much prefer Greagoir.
So, only the attrocities commited by mages must survive, then?

You misunderstand; the entire Templar Order is an atrocity that must be eradicated.