330 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Still the Chantrys beliefs, no evidence over then a religous view that blames magic for the darkspawn, maybe lyrium swords corrupted Tevinter Templars and made them into darkspawn.

There, that is now the non-Chantry view on Darkspawn . Its all the swords fault!

Ok, I'm going to do this slowly.

The darkspawn challenge everything we know about nature and evolution. Unlike humans or elves or dwarves or kossith, it's impossible for the darkspawn to have developed naturally.
Therefore, the existance of the darkspawn challenge nature and reality itself. There is, however, one power capable of ignoring the laws of nature and shaping reality. That is magic.
Therefore, regardless of the position of the chantry, magic had to have been at the root of the darkspawn.

Lyrium is still magic, BTW, and the Templar Order didn't exist before the creation of the Chantry which happened after the First Blight.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They don't really exist on the organizational level except in Tevinter, and the qunari are worse, so attacking Tevinter would be a rather bad mistake.

Freedom for mages means submission for mundanes. 

Factually inaccurate.

[Terrorize69]

TK514 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
In the right hands a knife can kill as many as a mage could. Espically since rouge can apprenately go invis and backstab everyone.

Not a case of being allowed, people with magic don't get the choice. People with knifes and swords have the choice.

A knife can never cause the same amount of destruction as magic. Explain to me how a knife could create something like the darkspawn.

I'm also pretty sure that holding a knife doesn't leave you open to demonic possession and all that entails.

I hear those lyrium swords can be pretty wild. Just saying.

And had someone disarmed her, she'd have been powerless.  How do you disarm a mage?  You make them Tranquil.  Are you advocating making all mages Tranquil?  After all, that's certainly a viable alternative to the Circle system.

Sure, right after we chop everyones hands off, so no more lyrium swords can be used.

The difference is still choice, an innocent infant doesn't choose to be born with magic. A sword wielding looney chooses to pick up arms and trains to kill.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They don't really exist on the organizational level except in Tevinter, and the qunari are worse, so attacking Tevinter would be a rather bad mistake.

Freedom for mages means submission for mundanes. 

Factually inaccurate.

Factually accurate.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Still the Chantrys beliefs, no evidence over then a religous view that blames magic for the darkspawn, maybe lyrium swords corrupted Tevinter Templars and made them into darkspawn.

There, that is now the non-Chantry view on Darkspawn . Its all the swords fault!

Ok, I'm going to do this slowly.

The darkspawn challenge everything we know about nature and evolution. Unlike humans or elves or dwarves or kossith, it's impossible for the darkspawn to have developed naturally.
Therefore, the existance of the darkspawn challenge nature and reality itself. There is, however, one power capable of ignoring the laws of nature and shaping reality. That is magic.
Therefore, regardless of the position of the chantry, magic had to have been at the root of the darkspawn.

Lyrium is still magic, BTW, and the Templar Order didn't exist before the creation of the Chantry which happened after the First Blight.

Like gods and magic developed naturally right? No.

If a force like magic can occur naturally, so can the darkspawn.

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I'll have to make that call when it's time. Historically I side with the Mages, but if they've fallen into blood magic when the game kicks off, I may have to side with the Templar. I'll have to wait and see. It also depends on my PC, his background and such.

Grey Warden mages have used blood magic; Merrill uses blood magic; apostates have used blood magic with the express purpose of using a specific school of magic that can't be nullified by the templars. I think it's a valid option for the mages to use since they are going to be fighting the templars.

[Xilizhra]

The darkspawn challenge everything we know about nature and evolution. Unlike humans or elves or dwarves or kossith, it's impossible for the darkspawn to have developed naturally.
Therefore, the existance of the darkspawn challenge nature and reality itself. There is, however, one power capable of ignoring the laws of nature and shaping reality. That is magic.
Therefore, regardless of the position of the chantry, magic had to have been at the root of the darkspawn.

Magic, in the DA universe, is natural. It's literally growing through the earth, in the form of lyrium. There's no natural/supernatural divide, really.

[marshalleck]

Terrorize69 wrote...

If a force like magic can occur naturally, so can the darkspawn.

Ergo, they're of magical origin. 

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Like gods and magic developed naturally right? No.

If a force like magic can occur naturally, so can the darkspawn.

Therefore, the origin of the darkspawn must be as magical as that of...well, magic.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Freedom for mages means submission for mundanes. 

Factually inaccurate. 

Factually accurate. 

It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Like gods and magic developed naturally right? No.

If a force like magic can occur naturally, so can the darkspawn.

Therefore, the origin of the darkspawn must be as magical as that of...well, magic.

Thus, natural.

Beeeeesides, sex is natural right? IF the chantry is right, then its humans having sex that gave birth to the darkspawn.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate.

The Dalish, where only mages are allowed to ascend to a leadership position and where the power of a Keeper is not in check to the point of being able to take decisions that are, obviously, harmful to the clan as a whole despite the wishes of said clan.
We don't know enough about the inner workings of Rivain or Haven. From Rivain, we hear talks of Qunari, Circle Towers and witches who willing let herselves be possessed. The one thing all of those have in common is that we don't know how their society works.

Tell me, how do you suggest we prevent mundanes from becoming second class citizens when mages have abilities that are so tremendously useful to any profession?
How do we prevent crimes from mages who can slit their wrists and force anyone to do anything and have them forget about it?

Equality between mages and mundanes is a pipe dream.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:11 .

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Thus, natural.

Beeeeesides, sex is natural right? IF the chantry is right, then its humans having sex that gave birth to the darkspawn.

Magic is, by its very nature, unnatural. So are the darkspawn.

No, if the chantry is right, it was a society created by mages that gave birth to the darkspawn. Had magic never existed, neither would the darkspawn.

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Freedom for mages means submission for mundanes. 

Factually inaccurate. 

Factually accurate. 

It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate.

Are you agreeing with JB or Lobse?

Cause it looks like you are with JB. The Dalish are ruled by Keepers, mages who decide their everyday life, who hunts, where they go and when they go there, even leaving people behind or cursing folks. And the leader of Haven was a mage too. Don't know enough about Rivian to see how mages fit into it.


And on another issue, David said that Blood Magic always corrupts, not like the darkspawn taint, but it always leads to it. So if the lead writer says that Blood Magic always leads to this then the whole mage order agreeing to use it would give me pause before choosing a side.

[Xilizhra]

Magic is, by its very nature, unnatural. So are the darkspawn.

No it's not.

No, if the chantry is right, it was a society created by mages that gave birth to the darkspawn. Had magic never existed, neither would the darkspawn.

If the Chantry is right, there's no way magic couldn't have existed, as the Maker is magical by nature.

And on another issue, David said that Blood Magic always corrupts, not like the darkspawn taint, but it always leads to it.

Source required.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:13 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate.

The Dalish, where only mages are allowed to ascend to a leadership position and where the power of a Keeper is not in check to the point of being able to take decisions that are, obviously, harmful to the clan as a whole despite the wishes of said clan.

This contradicts the story of the Dalish Warden's parents. Furthermore, people can leave the clan of their own volition, as we see with Velanna and Merrill. No one is forced to live there under the threat of execution, like the Circle mages are in the Chantry controlled Circles.

MisterJB wrote...

We don't know enough about the inner workings of Rivain or Haven. From Rivain, we hear talks of Qunari, Circle Towers and witches who willing let herselves be possessed. The one thing all of those have in commond is that we don't know how their society works.

We know there are mages living alongside non-mages. People aren't oppressed simply because there are free mages in their society.

MisterJB wrote...

Tell me, how do you suggest we prevent mundanes from becoming second class citizens when mages have abilities that are so tremendously useful to any profession?

Since non-Andrastian societies with free mages aren't emulating the Imperium, I don't see the point to this line of thought.

MisterJB wrote...

How do we prevent crimes from mages who can slit their wrists and force anyone to do anything and have them forger about it?

By having mages as part of law enforcement?

MisterJB wrote...

Equality between mages and mundanes is a pipe dream.

Which is an opinion I don't share. And I think this is getting off-topic.

[N147]

I will be as I have always been, neutral.

Modifié par Revenant24, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
If the Chantry is right, there's no way magic couldn't have existed, as the Maker is magical by nature.

I like the Chantry. Not the Maker.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
If the Chantry is right, there's no way magic couldn't have existed, as the Maker is magical by nature.

I like the Chantry. Not the Maker.

You like a relgious faction but not their god?

Anyways.. Humans are more unnatural then Darkspawn, IF Humans created the darkspawn, then what does that say about them?

A species that gave birth to that must be unnatural by nature the cake is a lie.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

[deuce985]

Tevinter Imperium, hopefully. And then they'll rise again. Unified under one banner.

Mages of Thedas will be their sword and they'll use them to rise to an empire once more.

Modifié par deuce985, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate. 

Are you agreeing with JB or Lobse?

Cause it looks like you are with JB. The Dalish are ruled by Keepers, mages who decide their everyday life, who hunts, where they go and when they go there, even leaving people behind or cursing folks.

The notion that the Keepers are dictators is contradicted by the history of the Dalish Warden's parents. And people can leave the clan whenever they want, as we know from Zevran's mother, Velanna, Feynriel's mother, and Merrill. The Keeper governs the clan.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

And the leader of Haven was a mage too.

Kolgrim isn't a mage. He has no magical abilities; he's a warrior.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Don't know enough about Rivian to see how mages fit into it.

Rivain is a kingdom with free mages. According to the lore: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

TCBC_Freak wrote...

And on another issue, David said that Blood Magic always corrupts, not like the darkspawn taint, but it always leads to it. So if the lead writer says that Blood Magic always leads to this then the whole mage order agreeing to use it would give me pause before choosing a side.

Gaider has been known to make mistakes; he's the same writer who said that there were no insane mages in Kirkwall, and who claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas, remember? Merrill disproves the idea that blood magic "always corrupts" because she handled magic proficiently for several years. Blood magic isn't the dark side of the Force, it's a school of magic where mages use blood instead of mana. The lore reads, "They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

I stand behind the idea that blood magic is a valid option to deal with templars in the Templar-Mage War.

[KingRoxas]

 "Sees the name of the thread"
Click

"See Xilizhra/LobselVith8 vs MisterJB"

Modifié par Kingroxas, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:31 .

[TCBC_Freak]

The facts are we've only seen two types of records. Mages free and Mages under the Circle. We can look at the history in the DA world and see both. Mages with unchecked freedom lead to Tevnter and slavery for all non-mages, elves and humans. Mages under the Circle became subject to abuse and that has lead to civil war.

We know from history (and those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it) that unchecked mages will take power. We also know from history that the Circle under the Templar is not the way to fix the issue either.

We can go back and forth about who's right all day, but in the end we know two facts. Mages cannot be kept unchecked and the Circle is not the answer. Lets agree on that, as fact, because it is what has been proven by history. And then maybe we can have a rational discussion.

I hope that DA3 will let us as the Inquisitor find the right way to handle this issue, or let us repeat one of these two flawed systems.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
This contradicts the story of the Dalish Warden's parents. Furthermore, people can leave the clan of their own volition, as we see with Velanna and Merrill. No one is forced to live there under the threat of execution, like the Circle mages are in the Chantry controlled Circles.

No, it doesn't. The fact that there are greater freedoms in dalish "society" than there are in the imperium is irrelevant.
Can a mundane elf become Keeper? No? Do elves any sort of representative that helps the Keeper make decisions and keeps him in check? No?
Then there is no equality between mages and mundanes among the Dalish.

We know there are mages living alongside non-mages. People aren't oppressed simply because there are free mages in their society.

From where do we know that? I've already told you, we have heard of qunari, templars and hedge witches in Rivain.
Which is more prevalent? Do these witches kill mundanes and other rivains don't do anything because their culture teaches them to revere them?

Since non-Andrastian societies with free mages aren't emulating the Imperium, I don't see the point to this line of thought.

If you want equality between mages and mundanes, then these questions must be answered.
Mages have abilities that mundanes can't match. That is a simple fact. And, of course, these abilities make them more desirable for employment and the such.
In a society where mages are completely free, how do we prevent them from turning mundanes into second class citizens?

By having mages as part of law enforcement?

If a blood mage decides to rape a woman and then make her forget it ever happened, which is possible, how do we capture that mage?
She won't press charges because she won't remember and blood magic leaves no traces.

Which is an opinion I don't share. And I think this is getting off-topic.

Not an opinion, fact.
And we all know that you can't mention mages or templars in the forums without rehashing the old debates.