330 réponses à ce sujet

[Terrorize69]

Nizaris1 wrote...

Responding to the OP, i think the Mages will have many factions, and they all stand alone except few that are allied with Tevinter. Some Mages will take action to unite all Mages, but they also have to face others who have their own interests.

It is like Muslims nowadays, we are not united, we have many factions, some are sponsored by some country, some are sponsored by some sects, some are living on their own, some are seeking for unity, some don't want to unite....some are extremist, some are liberals, some are moderate...don't think all Muslims are the same, we aren't.

That is how Mages in DA3 i suspect.

The only thing that can unite them is the same goal, same interest, and same motivation. There must be someone doing like The Warden and Alistair doing during the Blight to unite the land against the Blight. A Messiah....or  The Chosen One...

I can see why you see that .

But with the mages being hunted down in an all out war, can the mages avoid to be so divided? They would stand no chance against a combined force of Templars and Seekers otherwise.

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It isn't accurate among the Dalish (as the Dalish Origin attests to), in the kingdom of Rivain, or in the morally bankrupt society of Haven. In other words, it's factually inaccurate. 

Are you agreeing with JB or Lobse?

Cause it looks like you are with JB. The Dalish are ruled by Keepers, mages who decide their everyday life, who hunts, where they go and when they go there, even leaving people behind or cursing folks.

The notion that the Keepers are dictators is contradicted by the history of the Dalish Warden's parents. And people can leave the clan whenever they want, as we know from Zevran's mother, Velanna, Feynriel's mother, and Merrill. The Keeper governs the clan.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

And the leader of Haven was a mage too.

Kolgrim isn't a mage. He has no magical abilities; he's a warrior.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Don't know enough about Rivian to see how mages fit into it.

Rivain is a kingdom with free mages. According to the lore: "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

TCBC_Freak wrote...

And on another issue, David said that Blood Magic always corrupts, not like the darkspawn taint, but it always leads to it. So if the lead writer says that Blood Magic always leads to this then the whole mage order agreeing to use it would give me pause before choosing a side.

Gaider has been known to make mistakes; he's the same writer who said that there were no insane mages in Kirkwall, and who claimed atheism didn't exist in Thedas, remember? Merrill disproves the idea that blood magic "always corrupts" because she handled magic proficiently for several years. Blood magic isn't the dark side of the Force, it's a school of magic where mages use blood instead of mana. The lore reads, "They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn't limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

I stand behind the idea that blood magic is a valid option to deal with templars in the Templar-Mage War.

It's funny cause I lean more towards the mage side, not the Templar. So I'm you, mostly, I just see the other sides view  as having gorund to stand on. That doesn't make them right, I just see their logic.

Other than that I only have a comment about Haven. The leader is the old guy in the chantry in the village who's name I forget, Kolgrim is the protecter of "Andraste" and leader of their warriors not their leader as a cult. But that makes little difference in the grand scheme of things.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

[amggrunt]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

They don't really exist on the organizational level except in Tevinter, and the qunari are worse, so attacking Tevinter would be a rather bad mistake.

Freedom for mages means submission for mundanes. 

Factually inaccurate.

Factually accurate.

Like how the created will always destroy their creators?

[Terrorize69]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I hope that DA3 will let us as the Inquisitor find the right way to handle this issue, or let us repeat one of these two flawed systems.

Seems most likely lol, hmm forming a second imperium and enslaving all templars lol.

[Terrorize69]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

Magic makes the impossible, possible. And as you have tried to point out, the natural, unnatural. (Or vise versa *shrug*)

The Templars and Seekers all out war will count the Dalish as their foes, more so then usual. The mages and the dalish, the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

The Dalish wouldn't be able to withstand a onslaught from the Templars if they turned their eyes on them, not if the Dalish stood alone. The Dalish have tried to hard to survive and keep their culture, I dont think pride will stop them allying with mages if it meant they could continue to survive.

Also.. maybe Flemeth will be the mages greatest ally.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:37 .

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The facts are we've only seen two types of records. Mages free and Mages under the Circle. We can look at the history in the DA world and see both. Mages with unchecked freedom lead to Tevnter and slavery for all non-mages, elves and humans. Mages under the Circle became subject to abuse and that has lead to civil war.

Actually, there are free mages in the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven, and they aren't emulating the Imperium. There are shamans among the Avvar and the Chasind, the Keepers govern the clans but don't hold absolute authority, the seers are respected among the Rivaini, and Kolgrim is the mundane leader of the people of Haven.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

We know from history (and those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it) that unchecked mages will take power. We also know from history that the Circle under the Templar is not the way to fix the issue either.

Except for the kingdom of Rivain and Haven, two societies where free mages are living alongside non-mages. In addition to the other non-Andrastian societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, we see that they aren't trying to create another Imperium.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

We can go back and forth about who's right all day, but in the end we know two facts. Mages cannot be kept unchecked and the Circle is not the answer. Lets agree on that, as fact, because it is what has been proven by history. And then maybe we can have a rational discussion.

I wish people would stop being disingenuous in claiming that free mages = Tevinter because it's factually inaccurate, and disproven by the myraid of societies where free mages aren't trying to emulate the imperium.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I hope that DA3 will let us as the Inquisitor find the right way to handle this issue, or let us repeat one of these two flawed systems.

If the Inquisition allows the protagonist to side with the mages, I'm going to fight for mage autonomy.

[TK514]

Terrorize69 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
In the right hands a knife can kill as many as a mage could. Espically since rouge can apprenately go invis and backstab everyone.

Not a case of being allowed, people with magic don't get the choice. People with knifes and swords have the choice.

A knife can never cause the same amount of destruction as magic. Explain to me how a knife could create something like the darkspawn.

I'm also pretty sure that holding a knife doesn't leave you open to demonic possession and all that entails.

I hear those lyrium swords can be pretty wild. Just saying.

And had someone disarmed her, she'd have been powerless.  How do you disarm a mage?  You make them Tranquil.  Are you advocating making all mages Tranquil?  After all, that's certainly a viable alternative to the Circle system.

Sure, right after we chop everyones hands off, so no more lyrium swords can be used.

The difference is still choice, an innocent infant doesn't choose to be born with magic. A sword wielding looney chooses to pick up arms and trains to kill.

That's absurd.  Almost as absurd as comparing swords to magic, or assuming that a unique blade is an accurate representation for all blades ever made.  Every mage has the potential to become an abomination.  Not every sword can become made of red lyrium.  Perhaps you would also like to suggest that a marble statue is the same as a red lyrium one?

But I digress.

The easiest way to prevent someone from doing harm with a sword is to take the sword away.

Since you insist that swords = magic, the easiest way to prevent someone from doing harm with magic is to take the magic away.

So you advocate tranquility.

You are correct that infants don't get a choice on if they are going to be born with magic or not.  Which is why the Circle exists.  They are segregated because the responsible alternatives are to make them tranquil or kill them outright.

As for those who consider that mages who need to be controlled are an aberation, think on this:

Two belief systems so vastly different as to be mutually exclusive and mutually antagonistic, two socieites that have virtually nothing in common, came to the exact same conclusion about those with magic ability.

In fact, the entire reason the Chantry, and the realms who follow it, exist the way they are today is because mages went uncontrolled.  For the people of Thedas, mages requiring strict control isn't a theoretical thought exercise, it is historical fact.  The remains of the Tevinter Imperium stand as a constant reminder of that fact.

You might argue what form that control should take, but the necessity of the control is inescapable.

Modifié par TK514, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

[TCBC_Freak]

Terrorize69 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

Magic makes the impossible, possible. And as you have tried to point out, the natural, unnatural. (Or vise versa *shrug*)

The Templars and Seekers all out war will count the Dalish as their foes, more so then usual. The mages and the dalish, the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

The Dalish wouldn't be able to withstand a onslaught from the Templars if they turned their eyes on them, not if the Dalish stood alone. The Dalish have tried to hard to survive and keep their culture, I dont think pride will stop them allying with mages if it meant they could continue to survive.

Also.. maybe Flemeth will be the mages greatest ally.

The Dalish joining the mages in this would be ironic.

The elves side with Andraste against the mages (Tevinter), Now they side with mages against Andraste (the Chantry).

[Terrorize69]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

Magic makes the impossible, possible. And as you have tried to point out, the natural, unnatural. (Or vise versa *shrug*)

The Templars and Seekers all out war will count the Dalish as their foes, more so then usual. The mages and the dalish, the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

The Dalish wouldn't be able to withstand a onslaught from the Templars if they turned their eyes on them, not if the Dalish stood alone. The Dalish have tried to hard to survive and keep their culture, I dont think pride will stop them allying with mages if it meant they could continue to survive.

Also.. maybe Flemeth will be the mages greatest ally.

The Dalish joining the mages in this would be ironic.

The elves side with Andraste against the mages (Tevinter), Now they side with mages against Andraste (the Chantry).

Plot twists are awesome .

But the Dalish and the elves have hardly faired well from the support they gave.

[TCBC_Freak]

TK514 wrote...
That's absurd.  Almost as absurd as comparing swords to magic, or assuming that a unique blade is an accurate representation for all blades ever made.  Every mage has the potential to become an abomination.  Not every sword can become made of red lyrium.  Perhaps you would also like to suggest that a marble statue is the same as a red lyrium one?

But I digress.

The easiest way to prevent someone from doing harm with a sword is to take the sword away.

Since you insist that swords = magic, the easiest way to prevent someone from doing harm with magic is to take the magic away.

So you advocate tranquility.

You are correct that infants don't get a choice on if they are going to be born with magic or not.  Which is why the Circle exists.  They are segregated because the responsible alternatives are to make them tranquil or kill them outright.

As for those who consider that mages who need to be controlled are an aberation, think on this:

Two belief systems so vastly different as to be mutually exclusive and mutually antagonistic, two socieites that have virtually nothing in common, came to the exact same conclusion about those with magic ability.

In fact, the entire reason the Chantry, and the realms who follow it, exist the way they are today is because mages went uncontrolled.  For the people of Thedas, mages requiring strict control isn't a theoretical thought exercise, it is historical fact.  The remains of the Tevinter Imperium stand as a constant reminder of that fact.

You might argue what form that control should take, but the necessity of the control is inescapable.

Are you talking about the Chant and the Qun in the bit I highlighted? Beause that's where my mind went. Two groups, so different that the very ideas they are built on leads to war have reached the same conclusion about one thing... magic must be carefully watched.

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

Magic makes the impossible, possible. And as you have tried to point out, the natural, unnatural. (Or vise versa *shrug*)

The Templars and Seekers all out war will count the Dalish as their foes, more so then usual. The mages and the dalish, the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

The Dalish wouldn't be able to withstand a onslaught from the Templars if they turned their eyes on them, not if the Dalish stood alone. The Dalish have tried to hard to survive and keep their culture, I dont think pride will stop them allying with mages if it meant they could continue to survive.

Also.. maybe Flemeth will be the mages greatest ally.

The Dalish joining the mages in this would be ironic.

The elves side with Andraste against the mages (Tevinter), Now they side with mages against Andraste (the Chantry).

Plot twists are awesome .

But the Dalish and the elves have hardly faired well from the support they gave.

To be fair, the Dalish did (and continue to) flush any goodwill anyone might be inclined to send their way down the drain.

The Dalish don't have a horse in this race.  I think they'd side with whoever offers them more. 

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

This contradicts the story of the Dalish Warden's parents. Furthermore, people can leave the clan of their own volition, as we see with Velanna and Merrill. No one is forced to live there under the threat of execution, like the Circle mages are in the Chantry controlled Circles. [/quote]

No, it doesn't. The fact that there are greater freedoms in dalish "society" than there are in the imperium is irrelevant.
Can a mundane elf become Keeper? No? Do elves any sort of representative that helps the Keeper make decisions and keeps him in check? No?
Then there is no equality between mages and mundanes among the Dalish. [/quote]

The Dalish believe that the Arlathan elves were all mages, that they were immortal, and that contact with humanity changed this. You're dismissing their history in order to vilify them.

Hopefully, we'll get the opportunity to encounter the Dalish in Inquisition. I'd like to have the Inquisitor establish an alliance with one or more clans. I think Dalish warriors, archers, and mages would be an asset to the mages who are fighting for their autonomy.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We know there are mages living alongside non-mages. People aren't oppressed simply because there are free mages in their society. [/quote]

From where do we know that? I've already told you, we have heard of qunari, templars and hedge witches in Rivain.
Which is more prevalent? Do these witches kill mundanes and other rivains don't do anything because their culture teaches them to revere them? [/quote]

The developers have addressed that the Chasind and the Rivaini don't "control their mages," and that they don't vilify mages or magic because of abominations, because they see them as "natural disasters." They don't have the same mindset as Andrastians, who are taught to hate magic and mages by the Chantry. Reason enough for me to side against the Chantry and the Order of Templars in Inquisition.

Perhaps the Mages Collective might participate in the Templar-Mage War. I wonder what their members think about the Chantry of Andraste.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since non-Andrastian societies with free mages aren't emulating the Imperium, I don't see the point to this line of thought. [/quote]

If you want equality between mages and mundanes, then these questions must be answered.
Mages have abilities that mundanes can't match. That is a simple fact. And, of course, these abilities make them more desirable for employment and the such.
In a society where mages are completely free, how do we prevent them from turning mundanes into second class citizens? [/quote]

Since there are already societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, without brutally oppressing them, there is already a precedent for this. I'm not certain what the point is to this discussion, because you don't share my views on mages and magic. We aren't going to reach a consensus on this issue.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

By having mages as part of law enforcement? [/quote]

If a blood mage decides to rape a woman and then make her forget it ever happened, which is possible, how do we capture that mage?
She won't press charges because she won't remember and blood magic leaves no traces. [/quote]

We can capture that blood mage with the aid of another blood mage.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is an opinion I don't share. And I think this is getting off-topic.[/quote]

Not an opinion, fact. [/quote]

Claiming your opinions are facts doesn't make them so.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

And we all know that you can't mention mages or templars in the forums without rehashing the old debates.[/quote]

Coming from you, that's hilarious.

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

The facts are we've only seen two types of records. Mages free and Mages under the Circle. We can look at the history in the DA world and see both. Mages with unchecked freedom lead to Tevnter and slavery for all non-mages, elves and humans. Mages under the Circle became subject to abuse and that has lead to civil war.

Actually, there are free mages in the Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even the morally bankrupt society of Haven, and they aren't emulating the Imperium. There are shamans among the Avvar and the Chasind, the Keepers govern the clans but don't hold absolute authority, the seers are respected among the Rivaini, and Kolgrim is the mundane leader of the people of Haven.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

We know from history (and those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it) that unchecked mages will take power. We also know from history that the Circle under the Templar is not the way to fix the issue either.

Except for the kingdom of Rivain and Haven, two societies where free mages are living alongside non-mages. In addition to the other non-Andrastian societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, we see that they aren't trying to create another Imperium.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

We can go back and forth about who's right all day, but in the end we know two facts. Mages cannot be kept unchecked and the Circle is not the answer. Lets agree on that, as fact, because it is what has been proven by history. And then maybe we can have a rational discussion.

I wish people would stop being disingenuous in claiming that free mages = Tevinter because it's factually inaccurate, and disproven by the myraid of societies where free mages aren't trying to emulate the imperium.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

I hope that DA3 will let us as the Inquisitor find the right way to handle this issue, or let us repeat one of these two flawed systems.

If the Inquisition allows the protagonist to side with the mages, I'm going to fight for mage autonomy.

But the truth is that even those, "free mages" are under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Should they go too far the Templar would act. They aren't really free. They know that even if the Templar hasn't moved against them just because they are mages (such as the Dalish, the Templar tend to let them police themslves because they have better things to do) that if they gave them cause none of those groups could openly oppose the Templar alone should they come in force.

[Terrorize69]

General User wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You like a relgious faction but not their god?

I believe the Chantry has had an extremely positive effect on Thedas as a whole so, I support them.
Meanwhile, the Maker has abandoned His children because they didn't worship Him enough.

Back on topic, would be great if by siding with the mages, the elves and humans would one day co-exist as equals. That would be a nice happy ending to see, a grand elf/human city with mages, non-mages, elfs and humans all living peacefully as equals.

You might as well ask for global peace on Earth as well as an universal vaccine that creates food. It would be nice but it is still impossible.

Magic makes the impossible, possible. And as you have tried to point out, the natural, unnatural. (Or vise versa *shrug*)

The Templars and Seekers all out war will count the Dalish as their foes, more so then usual. The mages and the dalish, the enemy or my enemy is my friend.

The Dalish wouldn't be able to withstand a onslaught from the Templars if they turned their eyes on them, not if the Dalish stood alone. The Dalish have tried to hard to survive and keep their culture, I dont think pride will stop them allying with mages if it meant they could continue to survive.

Also.. maybe Flemeth will be the mages greatest ally.

The Dalish joining the mages in this would be ironic.

The elves side with Andraste against the mages (Tevinter), Now they side with mages against Andraste (the Chantry).

Plot twists are awesome .

But the Dalish and the elves have hardly faired well from the support they gave.

To be fair, the Dalish did (and continue to) flush any goodwill anyone might be inclined to send their way down the drain.

The Dalish don't have a horse in this race.  I think they'd side with whoever offers them more. 

Templars would imprison/kill their Keepers and Firsts without a
seconds thought, siding with the Templars would mean giving up their
history, beliefs and culture.

Mages would not ask such a sacrifice.

The Dalish arn't stupid (No one dare mention Merrill ) they know they won't survive the war should attention shift to them, they hate Humans true enough,
but the Keepers role is to save what it can and preserve the past.
Which could lead them to the decision that supporting mages will help
them stay true to that role.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 17 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

But the truth is that even those, "free mages" are under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Should they go too far the Templar would act. They aren't really free. They know that even if the Templar hasn't moved against them just because they are mages (such as the Dalish, the Templar tend to let them police themslves because they have better things to do) that if they gave them cause none of those groups could openly oppose the Templar alone should they come in force. 

They aren't under the "watchful eye" of the Chantry, they are living outside of the reach of the Chantry and the templars. The Chasind and the Avvar don't live in Andrastian society, they live outside it and worship their own gods. The Dalish are nomadic because the templars hunt them down, as Merrill points out to Hawke.

[Abraham_uk]

Will we get the option to side with the Mages in Dragon Age 3.

Or will we quite simply be railroaded to choosing the Templar faction, being restricted to using either Warriors and rogues?

Becuase if it's the latter I quite simply refuse to play.


I want to support the mages whilst playing as a mage!

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TCBC_Freak wrote...

But the truth is that even those, "free mages" are under the watchful eye of the Chantry. Should they go too far the Templar would act. They aren't really free. They know that even if the Templar hasn't moved against them just because they are mages (such as the Dalish, the Templar tend to let them police themslves because they have better things to do) that if they gave them cause none of those groups could openly oppose the Templar alone should they come in force. 

They aren't under the "watchful eye" of the Chantry, they are living outside of the reach of the Chantry and the templars. The Chasind and the Avvar don't live in Andrastian society, they live outside it and worship their own gods. The Dalish are nomadic because the templars hunt them down, as Merrill points out to Hawke.

That's my point. The Dalish travel partly because they fear the Templar. The Chasind and Avvar are "Barbarian wandering tribes in the wilds," partly because they fear the Templar. If a Keeper decided to sieze some land, even deep in the southern wilds the Templar would act. If a Chasind mage decided to do the same, the Templar would act. True the Templar arn't physically watching them, but they would act, if they felt like there was a real threat, which means that these "free" mages are smart enough to know, keep away from the Templar and don't be stupid and try to seize power. The idea of the Templar is keeping even these free mages in check.

And again. I am more on the mages side in all this. The Circle is wrong, not every mage needs to be assumed to be evil. I just agree with all the First Enchanters we've meet, they must be watched for their own protection as well as everyone elses. There is a balance that can be found, but pretending that magic isn't by its nature dangerous is not helping the disscussion.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish believe that the Arlathan elves were all mages, that they were immortal, and that contact with humanity changed this. You're dismissing their history in order to vilify them.

I don't see how their "history" is relevant here, you're avoiding the question.
Maybe once all elves were mages and immortal, maybe not. Now, they certainly aren't.

So, just asnwer me these two questions. Can a mundane elf become a Keeper? Does any elf have a way to influence the decisions of the Keepers beyond outright disobeying them or leaving the clan?
If the answer is no, to either, then there is no equality between mages and mundanes amongst the dalish. Maybe their way of life works for them, I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it is not equality.

Hopefully, we'll get the opportunity to encounter the Dalish in Inquisition. I'd like to have the Inquisitor establish an alliance with one or more clans. I think Dalish warriors, archers, and mages would be an asset to the mages who are fighting for their autonomy.

The more power to you.

The developers have addressed that the Chasind and the Rivaini don't "control their mages," and that they don't vilify mages or magic because of abominations, because they see them as "natural disasters." They don't have the same mindset as Andrastians, who are taught to hate magic and mages by the Chantry. Reason enough for me to side against the Chantry and the Order of Templars in Inquisition.

But abominations are not natural disasters. Does this mean that if an hedge witch is possessed and destroys a town, rivains just shrug their shoulders and pick up the pieces? And you think this is preferable to a society where mages can't just destroy a town if they had a bad day and were possessed because they are kept in a luxurious tower?

And there is Qunari and Andrastian presence both in Rivain. So, obviously, there is some control of mages there.

Perhaps the Mages Collective might participate in the Templar-Mage War. I wonder what their members think about the Chantry of Andraste.

Are these directed at me? Because I don't care how you play your game.

Since there are already societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, without brutally oppressing them, there is already a precedent for this. I'm not certain what the point is to this discussion, because you don't share my views on mages and magic. We aren't going to reach a consensus on this issue.

You tell me that equality between mages and mundanes is possible. I am raising problems of such a society and would like your views on why you believe they can be resolved.
Stop thinking on terms of brutal opression. Due to their abilities, it is only natural mages will have more opportunity in life than mundanes. That doesn't mean mundanes are being opressed, it simply means they become second class citizens, confined to a certain level of employment or wealth.
Do you believe this won't happen? If so, why?

We can capture that blood mage with the aid of another blood mage.

How do we know that rape ever happened? The woman won't press charges because her memory was altered and blood magic leaves no traces.

Claiming your opinions are facts doesn't make them so.

True. The fact that they are facts is what makes them factual.

Coming from you, that's hilarious.

I meant no offence. I was speaking of "you" in general terms. Such as "We all know templars and mages can't be mentioned without the old debates being reashed."

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:09 .

[General User]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Templars would imprison/kill their Keepers and Firsts without a seconds thought, siding with the Templars would mean giving up their history, beliefs and culture.

Well, obviously that isn't true.  In the past, and even though they've had every right to, the Templar Order has not only given a second thought to going after Dalish mages but decided against it entirely.

Terrorize69 wrote...

Mages would not ask such a sacrifice.

What the mages would ask for is for Dalish soldiers to fight and die on their behalf.  If I were a Dalish Keeper, I'd want something serious on the table before I even considered any such thing.  What does the Mage Rebellion have to offer?

Terrorize69 wrote...
The Dalish arn't stupid (No one dare mention Merrill ) they know they won't survive the war should attention shift to them, they hate Humans true enough, but the Keepers role is to save what it can and preserve the past.

Which could lead them to the decision that supporting mages will help them stay true to that role.

If they Dalish really wanted to save and preserve their past, I should think they'd want to get a far away as physically possible from the armies of crazy humans tearing Thedas apart.  Especially when the fight these humans are in has virutally nothing to do with them in the first place.

Modifié par General User, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Xilizhra]

So, just asnwer me these two questions. Can a mundane elf become a Keeper? Does any elf have a way to influence the decisions of the Keepers beyond outright disobeying them or leaving the clan?
If the answer is no, to either, then there is no equality between mages and mundanes amongst the dalish. Maybe their way of life works for them, I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it is not equality.

The position of hahren, which seems to be more or less the mundane equivalent of Keeper, and they seem to work together.

What the mages would ask for is for Dalish soldiers to fight and die on their behalf. If I were a Dalish Keeper, I'd want something serious on the table before I even considered any such thing. What does the Mage Rebellion have to offer?

The fall of Chantry power, perhaps the fall of Orlais if the circumstances are right, and the return of the Dales.

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

They aren't under the "watchful eye" of the Chantry, they are living outside of the reach of the Chantry and the templars. The Chasind and the Avvar don't live in Andrastian society, they live outside it and worship their own gods. The Dalish are nomadic because the templars hunt them down, as Merrill points out to Hawke.

That's my point. The Dalish travel partly because they fear the Templar. The Chasind and Avvar are "Barbarian wandering tribes in the wilds," partly because they fear the Templar. If a Keeper decided to sieze some land, even deep in the southern wilds the Templar would act. If a Chasind mage decided to do the same, the Templar would act. True the Templar arn't physically watching them, but they would act, if they felt like there was a real threat, which means that these "free" mages are smart enough to know, keep away from the Templar and don't be stupid and try to seize power. The idea of the Templar is keeping even these free mages in check.

And again. I am more on the mages side in all this. The Circle is wrong, not every mage needs to be assumed to be evil. I just agree with all the First Enchanters we've meet, they must be watched for their own protection as well as everyone elses. There is a balance that can be found, but pretending that magic isn't by its nature dangerous is not helping the disscussion.

Actually, First Enchanter Irving thanks the Hero of Ferelden for the Magi Boon, thanking him for freeing the mages from "their shackles."

Furthermore, people don't pretend that magic isn't dangerous; people on both sides agree that mages should be properly instructed on the use of their abilities, but some of us argue that putting mages under the absolute authority of a religious regime that vilifies them is lunacy. That's precisely the reason why I have no inclination to side with the Chantry or the Order of Templars.

[MisterJB]

Terrorize69 wrote...
The Dalish arn't stupid

I beg to differ. Arlathan fell because of their isolationism. The Dales fell because of their isolationism. And they insist on isolating themselves.
I know that chances are this will just instigate yet another argument but elves in general just are not very smart.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
The Dalish arn't stupid

I beg to differ. Arlathan fell because of their isolationism. The Dales fell because of their isolationism. And they insist on isolating themselves.
I know that chances are this will just instigate yet another argument but elves in general just are not very smart.

You just can't give up the human supremacy shtick, can you? Get over it, Bioware will never make it work out.