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[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

The Dalish arn't stupid  

I beg to differ. Arlathan fell because of their isolationism. The Dales fell because of their isolationism. And they insist on isolating themselves.
I know that chances are this will just instigate yet another argument but elves in general just are not very smart.

It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
You just can't give up the human supremacy shtick, can you? Get over it, Bioware will never make it work out.

Oh, I don't know. I've already wiped out two elven clans.

[TCBC_Freak]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

The Dalish arn't stupid  

I beg to differ. Arlathan fell because of their isolationism. The Dales fell because of their isolationism. And they insist on isolating themselves.
I know that chances are this will just instigate yet another argument but elves in general just are not very smart.

It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

Arlanthan fell to mages... funny. And then they were freed by what became the Chantry and the Templar... Ironic. (I'm being sarcastic, don't take me too serious here)

But the Dales didn't fall to the Templar alone, it was an exhaulted march, all of Thedas united against them. You can't blame the Tempalr anymore than you could blame, say, Starkhaven, who I'm sure sent soldiers too. The Templars were one part of the army, not the whole army.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
You just can't give up the human supremacy shtick, can you? Get over it, Bioware will never make it work out.

Oh, I don't know. I've already wiped out two elven clans.

The fact that you're an incompetent lunatic doesn't make your ideas any better.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

Both of which could have been avoided if the elves had been more willing to live alongside humans rather than avoid them as if they are the plague.
Tevinter could have been guided towards a gentler path. As for Orlais, if you refuse all attempts at civilized discourse; diplomacy and trade are peacekeeping tools, not acts of agression; don't be surprised if hostility is born instead.
And the elves clearly took the theatre of war to a different level when they butchered the town of Red Crossing.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

What the mages would ask for is for Dalish soldiers to fight and die on their behalf. If I were a Dalish Keeper, I'd want something serious on the table before I even considered any such thing. What does the Mage Rebellion have to offer?

The fall of Chantry power, perhaps the fall of Orlais if the circumstances are right, and the return of the Dales.

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odds.  It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

And a return of the Dales?  First of all, the Mage Rebellion doesn't control the Dales.  They can't promise something they don't even have.  And second, and correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the Dales (at least the portions that were worth having in the first place) been resettled by the Orlesians?

Modifié par General User, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:33 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
The fact that you're an incompetent lunatic doesn't make your ideas any better.

Really, petty insults? Are we going down that path?

[ImperatorMortis]

I will, though I hope to find a solution where almost everyone wins.

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that you're an incompetent lunatic doesn't make your ideas any better.

Haha.. Nice. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:31 .

[Xilizhra]

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odd's. It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

The templars have been rather problematic themselves, and as I said, this war might have a chance to topple Orlais from its position of power.

Really, petty insults? Are we going down that path?

Plenty of insults have already been thrown at video game characters in this thread. Unless you, personally, killed off two clans and not your characters, I hardly see how anything has changed.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odd's. It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

The templars have been rather problematic themselves, and as I said, this war might have a chance to topple Orlais from its position of power.

And the Fall of Orlais helps the Dalish... how?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odd's. It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

The templars have been rather problematic themselves, and as I said, this war might have a chance to topple Orlais from its position of power.

And the Fall of Orlais helps the Dalish... how?

It might lose control over the Dales, allowing the Dalish to return there.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Plenty of insults have already been thrown at video game characters in this thread. Unless you, personally, killed off two clans and not your characters, I hardly see how anything has changed.

At least be honest in your agression. You insulted me, not my characters.

[TCBC_Freak]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odd's. It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

The templars have been rather problematic themselves, and as I said, this war might have a chance to topple Orlais from its position of power.

And the Fall of Orlais helps the Dalish... how?

Is this really becoming about the Dalish?

Can we go back to fighting about mages vs. Templar please??

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Differing worldviews not withstanding, the Chantry and the Dalish haven't really been at odd's. It's the secular, temporal, and mercantile powers that be in Thedas that the Dalish keep getting into fights with.

The templars have been rather problematic themselves, and as I said, this war might have a chance to topple Orlais from its position of power.

And the Fall of Orlais helps the Dalish... how?

It might lose control over the Dales, allowing the Dalish to return there.

So in other words, you think that there would be no force strong enough to stop the elves from launching a campaign of conquest and ethnic cleansing.

Besides I wouldn't be so sure the Dalish could pull it off even if they were depraved enough to want to.  Should Orlais fall, whatever warlord or potentate that ends up in control of the Dales isn't going to give up without a fight.  And the Dalish aren't exactly unified.

Modifié par General User, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:46 .

[Xilizhra]

At least be honest in your agression. You insulted me, not my characters.

Your words were "I've already wiped out two elven clans." I was only being consistent with your wording.

So in other words, you think that there would be no force strong enough to stop the elves from launching a campaign of conquest and ethnic cleansing.

It could be a peace term that requires the Orlesians to withdraw.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

So in other words, you think that there would be no force strong enough to stop the elves from launching a campaign of conquest and ethnic cleansing.

It could be a peace term that requires the Orlesians to withdraw.

The Dales have been Orlesian territory for, what, 700 years?  We're talking about dozens of generations of people who have lived there.  It would be like trying to return upstate New York to the Iroquois. 

Besides if the Orlesian Empire falls entirely, they won't be able to withdraw from anything, they'll have ceased to exist.  You'd have to treat with their successors.  Who, I should think, won't be eager to give up whatever scraps they managed to hold on to.

Modifié par General User, 17 octobre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Todd23]

Tevinter would definitely see the long term advantage of the mages winning... as well as the possible risks of the Inquisition's success. But with all the chaos The Qun must have plans... they are against both factions. The real wild card are the Dwarves. With the Templars and the Mages no longer being apart of the Chantry. Who-ever can get the gold to monopolize on the business with the Dwarves will have a great advantage.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish believe that the Arlathan elves were all mages, that they were immortal, and that contact with humanity changed this. You're dismissing their history in order to vilify them. [/quote]

I don't see how their "history" is relevant here, you're avoiding the question.
Maybe once all elves were mages and immortal, maybe not. Now, they certainly aren't.

So, just asnwer me these two questions. Can a mundane elf become a Keeper? Does any elf have a way to influence the decisions of the Keepers beyond outright disobeying them or leaving the clan? [/quote]

Xil has already addressed this on the previous page.

Also, I think the beliefs of the Dalish play a role in why they make certain decisions, which is why I think they are important. The Dalish aren't the same as the Andrastian societies we have encountered. Merrill points out that the clan takes care of widows and orphans in her discussion with Sebastian. A specific group isn't needed to look out for them (which is what differs the Dalish from Andrastian society), because they would be looked after among the Dalish. As Merrill notes to Sebastian, "Who in the Dalish would just be part of the clan, like everyone else. I just don't get it."

I'm curious to see how the Dalish clans will react to the Templar-Mage War. I think some clans might be potential allies.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

If the answer is no, to either, then there is no equality between mages and mundanes amongst the dalish. Maybe their way of life works for them, I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it is not equality. [/quote]

As Merrill points out, the clan takes care of each other. Mages aren't Magisters among the Dalish; we have mages like the Keeper and the First who govern the clan, and mages like Aneirin the Healer who aren't in leadership positions. There are people with different responsibilities among the clan, and their primary goal seems to be survival since Andrastian society condemns them for being "heathens."

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The developers have addressed that the Chasind and the Rivaini don't "control their mages," and that they don't vilify mages or magic because of abominations, because they see them as "natural disasters." They don't have the same mindset as Andrastians, who are taught to hate magic and mages by the Chantry. Reason enough for me to side against the Chantry and the Order of Templars in Inquisition. [/quote]

But abominations are not natural disasters. Does this mean that if an hedge witch is possessed and destroys a town, rivains just shrug their shoulders and pick up the pieces? And you think this is preferable to a society where mages can't just destroy a town if they had a bad day and were possessed because they are kept in a luxurious tower?

And there is Qunari and Andrastian presence both in Rivain. So, obviously, there is some control of mages there. [/quote]

Abominations transpire as a result of the Chantry controlled Circles, both outside and inside the Circle Tower. I don't see it as the solution, which is why I'm opposed to the Chantry and the templars with The Warden and the Champion; this will continue with the Inquisitor.

Yet the lore reads, "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since there are already societies where mages are living alongside non-mages, without brutally oppressing them, there is already a precedent for this. I'm not certain what the point is to this discussion, because you don't share my views on mages and magic. We aren't going to reach a consensus on this issue. [/quote]

You tell me that equality between mages and mundanes is possible. I am raising problems of such a society and would like your views on why you believe they can be resolved.
Stop thinking on terms of brutal opression. Due to their abilities, it is only natural mages will have more opportunity in life than mundanes. That doesn't mean mundanes are being opressed, it simply means they become second class citizens, confined to a certain level of employment or wealth.
Do you believe this won't happen? If so, why? [/quote]

I believe it's possible for there to be equality among mages and non-mages. I would certainly seek to establish that outcome in Inquisition, if it's an option.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

We can capture that blood mage with the aid of another blood mage. [/quote]

How do we know that rape ever happened? The woman won't press charges because her memory was altered and blood magic leaves no traces. [/quote]

Through investigation.

And since blood magic could have been used to stop Vaughan from raping Shianni, I can see the benefit in mind controlling certain people, especially when it can be used to stop rapists from raping their potential victims, or preventing darkspawn from eating people and violating women.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Claiming your opinions are facts doesn't make them so. [/quote]

True. The fact that they are facts is what makes them factual. [/quote]

Simply because you think equality between mages and non-mages is impossible doesn't make it so.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:11 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So in other words, you think that there would be no force strong enough to stop the elves from launching a campaign of conquest and ethnic cleansing.

It could be a peace term that requires the Orlesians to withdraw.

The Dales have been Orlesian territory for, what, 700 years?  We're talking about dozens of generations of people who have lived there.  It would be like trying to return upstate New York to the Iroquois. 

Besides if the Orlesian Empire falls entirely, they won't be able to withdraw from anything, they'll have ceased to exist.  You'd have to treat with their successors.  Who, I should think, won't be eager to give up whatever scraps they managed to hold on to.

Well, if you refuse that, the problem is finding a piece of desirable territory that the humans haven't taken over already, allowing the Dalish to settle there, and ensuring that no one tries to take it. Which makes me wonder if they might benefit from an alliance with an independent Circle, which may have enough power to enforce this kind of thing... hmmm...

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if you refuse that, the problem is finding a piece of desirable territory that the humans haven't taken over already, allowing the Dalish to settle there, and ensuring that no one tries to take it. Which makes me wonder if they might benefit from an alliance with an independent Circle, which may have enough power to enforce this kind of thing... hmmm...

How about, instead of forming their own society, elves actually try to live alongside humans for once?

[Terrorize69]

The dales will be the last of the Orlesians concerns if Orlais is engulfed in the flames of civil war. Should the Dalish help the mages and help put an end to that and aid in bringing peace, for the mages and in turn the Divine. The dales could be considered as a reward.

The Dwarves will be forced to aid the Templars or be destroyed, they will want the lyrium after all. Although that works both ways, the mages could offer help in the exchange for theirs.

[Todd23]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

The Dalish arn't stupid  

I beg to differ. Arlathan fell because of their isolationism. The Dales fell because of their isolationism. And they insist on isolating themselves.
I know that chances are this will just instigate yet another argument but elves in general just are not very smart.

It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

Arlanthan fell to mages... funny. And then they were freed by what became the Chantry and the Templar... Ironic. (I'm being sarcastic, don't take me too serious here)

But the Dales didn't fall to the Templar alone, it was an exhaulted march, all of Thedas united against them. You can't blame the Tempalr anymore than you could blame, say, Starkhaven, who I'm sure sent soldiers too. The Templars were one part of the army, not the whole army.

Isolation had a part in it.  But that's because being neer humans is... unhealthy for them.  And humans are like fire.  They seek to dominate the land around them and expand their territory, even at the expense of it's previous inhabitants.  If the elves wish to be free, what they need is power.  Power to keep the humans at bay while they isolate themselves (third time's the charm).  They can get this by bringing in more magic into their mits.  Such as by offering succer to any elven mages seeking a way out of the war.  Though this could bring in some problems with the Inquisitors (if they could have avoided it in the first place).

[TCBC_Freak]

Fully on topic. This is how I think most nations will break down at the start of the game. Then we pick a side and go into the undecided nations to try and get them on our side (which may be easier in some and impossible in others because even though they are "undecided," they know who they lean towards), and then beat the ones on the other side.

Orlais - Templar
Anderfels - Undecided (this would give us access to a Grey Warden squadmate once they side with us maybe??)
Tevinter - Mages
Antiva - Undecided
Rivain - Undecided
Navarra - Templar
Cumberland - Mages
Kirkwall - Undecided (because it's at the "center of it all," neither side has a full hold yet)
Starkhaven - Templar
Ferelden - Mages
Orzamma - Mages
Kal-Sharok - Templar (I like the idea of the dwarf cities picking different sides)
Dalish - Undecided (maybe one clan with the Mages)

Modifié par TCBC_Freak, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:12 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if you refuse that, the problem is finding a piece of desirable territory that the humans haven't taken over already, allowing the Dalish to settle there, and ensuring that no one tries to take it. Which makes me wonder if they might benefit from an alliance with an independent Circle, which may have enough power to enforce this kind of thing... hmmm...

How about, instead of forming their own society, elves actually try to live alongside humans for once?

Because it inevitably descends into elves living beneath humans. Except in Tevinter, where elf magisters serve alongside human ones.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

Both of which could have been avoided if the elves had been more willing to live alongside humans rather than avoid them as if they are the plague.

You mean if the elves of the Dales capitulated to the templars, abandoned their religious views, and converted to the Chantry of Andraste?

MisterJB wrote...

Tevinter could have been guided towards a gentler path.

Considering Tevinter enslaved humans as well, I don't agree.

MisterJB wrote...

As for Orlais, if you refuse all attempts at civilized discourse; diplomacy and trade are peacekeeping tools, not acts of agression; don't be surprised if hostility is born instead.

You mean the Dales didn't interact much with the nation that was created through invading their neighbors? Since Drakon established the Orleisan Empire by conquest through declaring Exalted Marches on neighboring nations, I can see why the elves would be distrustful of Orlais. Their continued history of conquest - as we see when they invaded Nevarra after "helping" them during the Third Blight, and Ferelden prior to the Fifth Blight - illustrates that much hasn't changed about Orlais.

MisterJB wrote...

And the elves clearly took the theatre of war to a different level when they butchered the town of Red Crossing.

According to the Orlesian version of events.