330 réponses à ce sujet

[Todd23]

Terrorize69 wrote...

The dales will be the last of the Orlesians concerns if Orlais is engulfed in the flames of civil war. Should the Dalish help the mages and help put an end to that and aid in bringing peace, for the mages and in turn the Divine. The dales could be considered as a reward.

The Dwarves will be forced to aid the Templars or be destroyed, they will want the lyrium after all. Although that works both ways, the mages could offer help in the exchange for theirs.

I don't think we have to worry about the Dwarves being attacked.  They're powerful, united (more-or-less), and play an impotant role in terms of being the first defense against the darkspawn.  Templars aren't born, they're made.  If they want any kind of support, they'd leave one of the few remaining dwarven home-lands alone.

[TobiTobsen]

No matter who fights for either side, everybody will lose when the Qunari decide to clean up the rubble.

Fighting a civil war and without the Chantry to unify them this time, how are they going to fight the war machine that nearly conquered them before and only pulled back when fanatics decided that butchering "heathen" civilians was the way to go?

[Sable Rhapsody]

TobiTobsen wrote...

No matter who fights for either side, everybody will lose when the Qunari decide to clean up the rubble.

Fighting a civil war and without the Chantry to unify them this time, how are they going to fight the war machine that nearly conquered them before and only pulled back when fanatics decided that butchering "heathen" civilians was the way to go?

Flemeth 

In all seriousness, a full-scale qunari war would be an awesome backdrop for a subsequent DA game.

[KiwiQuiche]

I'll support Mages. They've been treated as horrible people and locked up all their life simply for being born. They deserve freedom and hell, I've always been a fan of the Underdogs.

However I won't hesistate to kill those who are are trying to start sh!t, such as killing innocents as blood sacrifices and whatnot. (I'm not anti-Blood Mage though, just the loony ones ****** me off.)

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Xil has already addressed this on the previous page.

Hahrel? The storyteller?
I don't remember any indication he held some sort of power in the clan.

Also, I think the beliefs of the Dalish play a role in why they make certain decisions, which is why I think they are important. The Dalish aren't the same as the Andrastian societies we have encountered. Merrill points out that the clan takes care of widows and orphans in her discussion with Sebastian. A specific group isn't needed to look out for them (which is what differs the Dalish from Andrastian society), because they would be looked after among the Dalish. As Merrill notes to Sebastian, "Who in the Dalish would just be part of the clan, like everyone else. I just don't get it."

Which is admirable, certainly, but it is not related to the matter of equality between mages and mundanes amongst the Dalish.
If a mundane is not electable to the position of Keeper and there is no way for them to influence his or her decisions other than disobeying them or leaving, there is no equality.

As Merrill points out, the clan takes care of each other. Mages aren't Magisters among the Dalish; we have mages like the Keeper and the First who govern the clan, and mages like Aneirin the Healer who aren't in leadership positions. There are people with different responsibilities among the clan, and their primary goal seems to be survival since Andrastian society condemns them for being "heathens."

that the clan takes care of each other is admirable. However, that is irrelevant to the previous question.
What do you want is equality? Or are you saying there is nothing wrong with mage supremacy if they don't opress mundanes?

Abominations transpire as a result of the Chantry controlled Circles, both outside and inside the Circle Tower.

No, abominations transpire as a result of demons possessing mages. It happened long before there was Chantry and, if it is ever destroyed, it will continuew happening.

Yet the lore reads, "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

The existence of Rivaini witches who are free doesn't mean there aren't mages who are controlled in Rivain. Either by the Qunari or the Chantry.

And I ask again: According to the devs, rivains see abominations as natural disasters. However, abominations are not natural disasters. They are caused by sentient beings who are killable.
So, if a city is destroyed by an abomination, do the rivains just shrug it off and pick a up the pieces? And you actually believe this is preferable to an Andrastian Society where mages can't destroy entire cities because of the measures in place?

I believe it's possible for there to be equality among mages and non-mages. I would certainly seek to establish that outcome in Inquisition, if it's an option.

Are you going to answer the question or not?

You tell me that equality between mages and mundanes is possible. I am
raising problems of such a society and would like your views on why you
believe they can be resolved.
Stop thinking on terms of brutal
opression. Due to their abilities, it is only natural mages will have
more opportunity in life than mundanes. That doesn't mean mundanes are
being opressed, it simply means they become second class citizens,
confined to a certain level of employment or wealth.
Do you believe this won't happen? If so, why?

Through investigation.

Blood magic leaves no marks; if the mage is smart, he didn't leave any marks either. The woman's mind was altered and she doesn't remember she was ever raped.
What investigation could possible lead to the just punishment of this mage rapist?

And since blood magic could have been used to stop Vaughan from raping Shianni, I can see the benefit in mind controlling certain people, especially when it can be used to stop rapists from raping their potential victims, or preventing darkspawn from eating people and violating women.

Well now, this is interesting.
What uses of blood magic are you suggesting? How would it have prevented Vaughan from raping Shianni?

Simply because you think equality between mages and non-mages is impossible doesn't make it so.

True. What makes it so is human nature.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:22 .

[LobselVith8]

TCBC_Freak wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It instigates a discussion because you continue to make factually inaccurate claims. Arlathan fell because Tevinter enslaved them; the Dales fell because (according to the Dalish version) the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, they kicked out the missionaries, and the Chantry sent templars into the Dales as a response.

Arlanthan fell to mages... funny. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie] 

Hmmm... I wonder if people would have the same views if elves forced humans to live in Towers because of the behavior and history of humanity? Like Lanaya says, "A poet once wrote of them, before the fall of the Dales: 'Like Dragons they fly, glory upon wings. Like dragons they savage, fearsome pretty things'." The destruction of the kingdom of Arlathan, the alleged role in starting the Blights, the conquests of the Orlesian Empire; simply replace "mages" with "humans" and you have a plethora of reasons why the elves could condemn humanity as a whole. However, I think a fair number of people would say you can't condemn all humans simply because of the actions of some.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

And then they were freed by what became the Chantry and the Templar... Ironic. (I'm being sarcastic, don't take me too serious here)

Everyone always forgets Shartan.

TCBC_Freak wrote...

But the Dales didn't fall to the Templar alone, it was an exhaulted march, all of Thedas united against them. You can't blame the Tempalr anymore than you could blame, say, Starkhaven, who I'm sure sent soldiers too. The Templars were one part of the army, not the whole army.

If the war started because the templars invaded the sovereign territory of the Dales simply because the elves refused to convert to the Chantry, then you can blame the Chantry and the templars for starting the war with the Dales.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So in other words, you think that there would be no force strong enough to stop the elves from launching a campaign of conquest and ethnic cleansing.

It could be a peace term that requires the Orlesians to withdraw.

The Dales have been Orlesian territory for, what, 700 years?  We're talking about dozens of generations of people who have lived there.  It would be like trying to return upstate New York to the Iroquois. 

Besides if the Orlesian Empire falls entirely, they won't be able to withdraw from anything, they'll have ceased to exist.  You'd have to treat with their successors.  Who, I should think, won't be eager to give up whatever scraps they managed to hold on to.

Well, if you refuse that, the problem is finding a piece of desirable territory that the humans haven't taken over already, allowing the Dalish to settle there, and ensuring that no one tries to take it. Which makes me wonder if they might benefit from an alliance with an independent Circle, which may have enough power to enforce this kind of thing... hmmm...

Have the Tevinters resettled Arlathan?  I got the impression that it was mostly still wilderness.

Any powerful human faction could potentially be a great benefactor of the Dalish, assuming the Dalish even want a powerful human benefactor in the first place... which they don't.  But even if they did, I doubt they'd be inclined to side with one like the Mage Rebellion that has to write all it's lofty promises on post-dated checks as it were.

The thing is, the Dalish could potentially resettle in a land currently occupied by humans, or even take such a land as a homeland.  But their doing so would successfully be reliant on the Dalish being able to show ethnic and religious tolerance.  And the Dalish just don't have the organization or unity to make something like that happen even if they wanted to... which they don't.

Modifié par General User, 17 octobre 2012 - 08:25 .

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Because it inevitably descends into elves living beneath humans. Except in Tevinter, where elf magisters serve alongside human ones.

Curiously, this is exactly why I believe equality between mundanes and mages is impossible.

Still, I don't see any inevitability regarding equality between humans and elves. The elves have just been unwilling to try.

[Xilizhra]

Still, I don't see any inevitability regarding equality between humans and elves. The elves have just been unwilling to try.

And the humans have outright destroyed any and all attempts.

The thing is, the Dalish could potentially resettle in a land currently occupied by humans, or even take such a land as a homeland. But their doing so would successfully be reliant on the Dalish being able to show ethnic and religious tolerance. And the Dalish just don't have the organization or unity to make something like that happen even if they wanted to... which they don't.

Also, the presence of humans tends to kind of kill elves, so they have little incentive to do so. And really, I think the Dalish would be willing to show religious tolerance if the Chantry was, which it's not.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

The Siblinghood of Admittedly Sometimes Questionably Upright Tailors Of Thedas And Points Beyond.

Because Mage Pants.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean if the elves of the Dales capitulated to the templars, abandoned their religious views, and converted to the Chantry of Andraste?

No, I mean if the elves had allowed human diplomats, merchants and missionaries inside their borders.
Show respect to the human culture and demand respect of your as well.

You mean the Dales didn't interact much with the nation that was created through invading their neighbors? Since Drakon established the Orleisan Empire by conquest through declaring Exalted Marches on neighboring nations, I can see why the elves would be distrustful of Orlais. Their continued history of conquest - as we see when they invaded Nevarra after "helping" them during the Third Blight, and Ferelden prior to the Fifth Blight - illustrates that much hasn't changed about Orlais.

All true. But do you think that the smart thing to do when your neighbor is an extremely powerful nation with tendencies towards expansionism is do everything in your power to ****** it off?
Dplomacy, trade and missionarism might not have been enough to prevent the war but it would have certainly helped. Treating orlesians as if they are plague is just going to breed hostility.

According to the Orlesian version of events.

The elves don't deny they attacked Red Crossing. They just claim the Chantry sent Templars first.
Which might even be true but not only were the people of Red Crossing not the Chantry, there is also no account from any side of the Templars attacking dalish villages.
Thus, why I believe the elves took the theatre of war to the next level.

[thats1evildude]

The best hope for a new elven homeland is to topple the Tevinter Imperium from within — a new nation built on the rubble of their former oppressors.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
And the humans have outright destroyed any and all attempts.

That would require the elves attempting which they haven't.
How can the humans destroy something that never existed?

Also, the presence of humans tends to kind of kill elves, so they have little incentive to do so.

That's silly. Even if there was any basis of truth to this claim, which I doubt, it is far more important to create a homeland that lasts than attempt to recreate some lost "immortality" and end up extinct.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Still, I don't see any inevitability regarding equality between humans and elves. The elves have just been unwilling to try.

And the humans have outright destroyed any and all attempts.

The thing is, the Dalish could potentially resettle in a land currently occupied by humans, or even take such a land as a homeland. But their doing so would successfully be reliant on the Dalish being able to show ethnic and religious tolerance. And the Dalish just don't have the organization or unity to make something like that happen even if they wanted to... which they don't.

Also, the presence of humans tends to kind of kill elves, so they have little incentive to do so. And really, I think the Dalish would be willing to show religious tolerance if the Chantry was, which it's not.

The entire culture of the Dalish is based on apartheid, intolerance and chasing half remembered myths and legends.  Given the chance, whey would persecute humans and Andrastians no matter what the Chantry, or anyone else for that matter, does or does not do.

[Zkyire]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

I don't mean PC and his/her companions. I mean factions.

The Templars have both the Order and also most of the Seekers of Truth. While Mages just have the former Circles.

Against an elite anti-mage fighting force (Seekers), how will the mages counter this? That makes them seem overwelmed.

I would advocate blood magic, since templars can nullify the ordinary abilities of a mage otherwise. And we know that the Circle mages have performed well historically, from their actions in defending the Andrastian nations during the Blights, and against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches.

The historical record for the New Exalted Marches noted: "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

Terrorize69 wrote...

I guess Demons will take advantage but they attack all partys, mages and non mages alike.

So who else will step in for the mages?

The Tevinter prehaps?

I think the Qunari have Tevinter occupied as it is, and I doubt most Magisters care about the plight of the mages outside the Imperium. I would try to establish an alliance with the Dalish clans, perhaps offering them back the Dales if we achieve victory.

If the mages start turning to blood magic en masse, then the entire population will turn against them for cavorting with demons.

The mages need popular support (that being, they need to seem like the oppressed) to win the hearts and minds of the public. Without that, they're dead.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Xil has already addressed this on the previous page.[/quote]

Hahrel? The storyteller?
I don't remember any indication he held some sort of power in the clan. [/quote]

The story of the Dalish Warden's parents explains that the Keepers aren't the absolute authority over the clan.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I think the beliefs of the Dalish play a role in why they make certain decisions, which is why I think they are important. The Dalish aren't the same as the Andrastian societies we have encountered. Merrill points out that the clan takes care of widows and orphans in her discussion with Sebastian. A specific group isn't needed to look out for them (which is what differs the Dalish from Andrastian society), because they would be looked after among the Dalish. As Merrill notes to Sebastian, "Who in the Dalish would just be part of the clan, like everyone else. I just don't get it."[/quote]

Which is admirable, certainly, but it is not related to the matter of equality between mages and mundanes amongst the Dalish.
If a mundane is not electable to the position of Keeper and there is no way for them to influence his or her decisions other than disobeying them or leaving, there is no equality. [/quote]

Except mundanes do have a say, as the story of the Dalish Warden's parents reveals.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As Merrill points out, the clan takes care of each other. Mages aren't Magisters among the Dalish; we have mages like the Keeper and the First who govern the clan, and mages like Aneirin the Healer who aren't in leadership positions. There are people with different responsibilities among the clan, and their primary goal seems to be survival since Andrastian society condemns them for being "heathens."[/quote]

that the clan takes care of each other is admirable. However, that is irrelevant to the previous question.
What do you want is equality? Or are you saying there is nothing wrong with mage supremacy if they don't opress mundanes? [/quote]

You seem to confuse the Keepers of the clans with Kings and Queens; they aren't the same thing.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Abominations transpire as a result of the Chantry controlled Circles, both outside and inside the Circle Tower.[/quote]

No, abominations transpire as a result of demons possessing mages. It happened long before there was Chantry and, if it is ever destroyed, it will continuew happening. [/quote]

Considering Uldred became an abomination because he was opposing the Chantry controlled Circle, and mages have become abominations because of the templars hunting them down (which is the summary for the abomination codex), I think it's safe to say that my original statement is accurate.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet the lore reads, "Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off." [/quote]

The existence of Rivaini witches who are free doesn't mean there aren't mages who are controlled in Rivain. Either by the Qunari or the Chantry.

And I ask again: According to the devs, rivains see abominations as natural disasters. However, abominations are not natural disasters. They are caused by sentient beings who are killable.
So, if a city is destroyed by an abomination, do the rivains just shrug it off and pick a up the pieces? And you actually believe this is preferable to an Andrastian Society where mages can't destroy entire cities because of the measures in place? [/quote]

It means they don't vilify all mages and all magic because something bad transpired, like Andrastian society does. Considering innocent mages are murdered in Andrastian society because people are so indocturinated to blame them for anything that goes wrong, I don't see Andrastian society as preferable.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I believe it's possible for there to be equality among mages and non-mages. I would certainly seek to establish that outcome in Inquisition, if it's an option.[/quote]

Are you going to answer the question or not?

You tell me that equality between mages and mundanes is possible. I am
raising problems of such a society and would like your views on why you
believe they can be resolved.
Stop thinking on terms of brutal
opression. Due to their abilities, it is only natural mages will have
more opportunity in life than mundanes. That doesn't mean mundanes are
being opressed, it simply means they become second class citizens,
confined to a certain level of employment or wealth.
Do you believe this won't happen? If so, why? [/quote]

I already answered the question: I believe equality is possible between mages and non-mages. Being a mage doesn't automatically make a person great at every single task imaginable. Certain people are skilled as leaders, diplomats, artisans, and a myraid of other occupations. Different people will be needed for certain roles. I don't see non-mages being second class citizens simply because mages excel at magic.

And perhaps society can try to focus on dealing with the threat of the darkspawn instead of letting them build up their numbers, and dealing with them during the next Blight, when they threaten all of Thedas again. Warriors, rogues, and mages fighting darkspawn, and widdling their numbers to try to prevent another Blight.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Through investigation.[/quote]

Blood magic leaves no marks; if the mage is smart, he didn't leave any marks either. The woman's mind was altered and she doesn't remember she was ever raped.
What investigation could possible lead to the just punishment of this mage rapist? [/quote]

A proficient blood mage who could see that memories have been altered by blood magic.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

And since blood magic could have been used to stop Vaughan from raping Shianni, I can see the benefit in mind controlling certain people, especially when it can be used to stop rapists from raping their potential victims, or preventing darkspawn from eating people and violating women.[/quote]

Well now, this is interesting.
What uses of blood magic are you suggesting? How would it have prevented Vaughan from raping Shianni? [/quote]

Mind control to stop Vaughan.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Simply because you think equality between mages and non-mages is impossible doesn't make it so. [/quote]

True. What makes it so is human nature.[/quote]

Yet it was a human mage who sought to establish a kingdom where mages and non-mages lived together.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet it was a human mage who sought to establish a kingdom where mages and non-mages lived together.

Would you stop going on about that loser Aldenon? The man was a failure. He disappeared into obscurity when the Chantry started whipping his ass and his legacy consists of hand-offs only fit to be passed on to better heroes. You wouldn't even know he existed if it weren't for a DLC pack. That's how useless he was; he doesn't even warrant mentioning except in downloadable content that only a small portion of the fanbase will even see. 

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean if the elves of the Dales capitulated to the templars, abandoned their religious views, and converted to the Chantry of Andraste?

No, I mean if the elves had allowed human diplomats, merchants and missionaries inside their borders.
Show respect to the human culture and demand respect of your as well.

The elves don't have to allow missionaries into their homeland when none of them believe in the Maker or in Andrastian mythology. And the elves don't have to allow anyone inside their borders if they want to be left alone, especially when Orlais is conquering it's neighbors in the name of religion; blaming the elves for humanity trying to force their religion down their throats is absurd.

If Inquisition allows the protagonist to help the elves reclaim their homeland, I think it would be worthwhile to help atone for the loss of the Dales because of Orlesian imperialism.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean the Dales didn't interact much with the nation that was created through invading their neighbors? Since Drakon established the Orleisan Empire by conquest through declaring Exalted Marches on neighboring nations, I can see why the elves would be distrustful of Orlais. Their continued history of conquest - as we see when they invaded Nevarra after "helping" them during the Third Blight, and Ferelden prior to the Fifth Blight - illustrates that much hasn't changed about Orlais.

All true. But do you think that the smart thing to do when your neighbor is an extremely powerful nation with tendencies towards expansionism is do everything in your power to ****** it off?
Dplomacy, trade and missionarism might not have been enough to prevent the war but it would have certainly helped. Treating orlesians as if they are plague is just going to breed hostility.

You realize that Ferelden was invaded, right? And that, despite the agreements between Ferelden and Orlais, the possibility of invasion has arisen again? Your arguments are disproven by the history and conduct of Orlais over the centuries.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the Orlesian version of events.

The elves don't deny they attacked Red Crossing. They just claim the Chantry sent Templars first.
Which might even be true but not only were the people of Red Crossing not the Chantry, there is also no account from any side of the Templars attacking dalish villages.
Thus, why I believe the elves took the theatre of war to the next level.

Or the Dalish attacked the templars if they were stationed at Red Crossing, and the claims by Orlais were greatly exaggerated to vilify the "heathens." You never know.

[Xilizhra]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yet it was a human mage who sought to establish a kingdom where mages and non-mages lived together.

Would you stop going on about that loser Aldenon? The man was a failure. He disappeared into obscurity when the Chantry started whipping his ass and his legacy consists of hand-offs only fit to be passed on to better heroes. You wouldn't even know he existed if it weren't for a DLC pack. That's how useless he was; he doesn't even warrant mentioning except in downloadable content that only a small portion of the fanbase will even see. 

Temporary failure. If DA3 is made well, we'll have a chance to use the same idea more succesfully.

[thats1evildude]

Xilizhra wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Would you stop going on about that loser Aldenon? The man was a failure. He disappeared into obscurity when the Chantry started whipping his ass and his legacy consists of hand-offs only fit to be passed on to better heroes. You wouldn't even know he existed if it weren't for a DLC pack. That's how useless he was; he doesn't even warrant mentioning except in downloadable content that only a small portion of the fanbase will even see. 

Temporary failure. If DA3 is made well, we'll have a chance to use the same idea more succesfully.

The operative word there being "failure." He failed to convince Calenhad to reject the Chantry and he failed to defeat the templars. He isn't even mentioned in the main legend of Calenhad. At best he's a historical footnote.

Mages should spit at the mention of his name for being as useless as ****** on a boar.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:25 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The story of the Dalish Warden's parents explains that the Keepers aren't the absolute authority over the clan.

If I recall it correctly, the Keeper of a clan disaproved of the match and forbid it. Thus, they ran away to another clan together.
So, basically, the Keeper had made a decision and there was no one the Dalish Warden's parents could appeal to so, they had to run away.

You seem to confuse the Keepers of the clans with Kings and Queens; they aren't the same thing.

They have supreme authority in all decisions and only mages are electable.
Mundane elfs might not be opressed in the most generaly accepted meaning of the term but they are certainly not equals.

Considering Uldred became an abomination because he was opposing the Chantry controlled Circle, and mages have become abominations because of the templars hunting them down (which is the summary for the abomination codex), I think it's safe to say that my original statement is accurate.

And then there are other mages who are possessed simply because they don't know how to deal with demons or because they understimate them. Your statement takes only a small percentage of a certain occurence and claims it is true for all cases.

It means they don't vilify all mages and all magic because something bad transpired, like Andrastian society does. Considering innocent mages are murdered in Andrastian society because people are so indocturinated to blame them for anything that goes wrong, I don't see Andrastian society as preferable.

No, you prefer the society where people are indocrinated to viewing abominations as natural disasters when they are clearly the conscious acts of sentient beings that can be avoided.
Much better.

I already answered the question: I believe equality is possible between mages and non-mages. Being a mage doesn't automatically make a person great at every single task imaginable. Certain people are skilled as leaders, diplomats, artisans, and a myraid of other occupations. Different people will be needed for certain roles. I don't see non-mages being second class citizens simply because mages excel at magic.

No, you didn't. Now you did.
Magic excells at everything and everything the average mundane can do, the average mage can do it much better and faster. There might be charismatic mundanes genious who will raise above mages but these will be extremely rare.
If mages are freed, it is inevitable that mundanes become second class citizens.

And perhaps society can try to focus on dealing with the threat of the darkspawn instead of letting them build up their numbers, and dealing with them during the next Blight, when they threaten all of Thedas again. Warriors, rogues, and mages fighting darkspawn, and widdling their numbers to try to prevent another Blight.

Irrelevant.

A proficient blood mage who could see that memories have been altered by blood magic.

But we've been specifically told that it is impossible to know if someone has been influenced by blood magic.

Mind control to stop Vaughan.

Yeah, I got that.
But how? Vaughan was able to abuse the elves not because there weren't any mages nearby to stop him but because of his status.
And even if Vaughan wasn't a noble, why would blood magic be more effective at stopping him than a normal guard with a sword?

Yet it was a human mage who sought to establish a kingdom where mages and non-mages lived together.

Which was doomed to fail.

Modifié par MisterJB, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:16 .

[Villiamus]

It is the Moral and Just thing to do is to side with the Mages. No mage sought the power they have and the vast majority do not seek political power. The Tevinter Imperium is not automatically the result of mage freedom. Furthermore it is human nature for the Oppressed to Fight their Oppressors by continuing to force mages into the Circles they are guaranteeing the continued rebellion from the mages.

Modifié par Villiamus, 17 octobre 2012 - 09:07 .

[LobselVith8]

Zkyire wrote...

If the mages start turning to blood magic en masse, then the entire population will turn against them for cavorting with demons.

The mages need popular support (that being, they need to seem like the oppressed) to win the hearts and minds of the public. Without that, they're dead. 

Good idea to get this discussion back on topic. I think the Templar v. Mage discussion has been beaten to death a hundred times over already.

Blood magic is seen as abhorrent in Andrastian society, but so is ordinary magic. Magic is already vilified in Andrastian society, so mages will already be villains in the eyes of many Andrastians. The issue I see is that templars can nullify the abilities of a mage unless it's blood magic. It's a matter of using a school of magic that permits mages to fight against the templars without their abilities shutting down their powers. I'd condone blood magic use in Inquisition, although I wouldn't force everyone to use it.

Doubt the Dalish would blood magic en mass, but I imagine some apostates might.