279 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

And since when did we start give a damn about the Reaper's civil rights?

Oops, forgot we weren't talking about Synthesis!

Then again, Reapers can't turn off their indoctrination.  Plus, you're still controlling the masses, this time through threat of force and complete centralization of power.

And who says Shepard will keep maintaining power? I would argue that having Shepard's memories and morals would give the new catalyst a much more flexible viewpoint, so if the galaxy is better running by itself, it will leave.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not mind control much less mass. And grabbing the Reapers to make them seek peace isn't an atrocity at all.

Mixed up Control and Synthesis.  See response to Lizardviking.

Bonus question: What if it weren't a Reaper invasion, and something more like the turians or the asari were the aggressors?  Assume conventional victory is not possible and that the Crucible is the only option.

I would do the exact same thing, except even moreso because I'd be certain that not all of the aggressors were evil.

[DuffyMJ]

ghost9191 wrote...

the reapers are what they are, no guarantee synthesis would change that or control. so do they really deserve to continue on, what if they start again , or don't stop, only option that stops the reaper threat is destroy

still hate it , genocide and all , that is of course if it destroys the geth, i want my damn proof =0
but hard choices need to be made.

but both control and synthesis have you have shepard making a deal with the devil , which also both have shepard committing suicide so s/he cannot continue the fight if it does not work. Synthesis and control the races will not be able to fight back , same as refuse if the reapers do not stop. destroy is the only option that takes the reapers out of the equation and allows the races to rebuild on their own


and i do feel synthesis does more dmg than destroy , you hit the apex of evolution , where the hell do you go from there . even though that isn't really possible but whatever , if so then stagnation anyone

I agree.

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too.  In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself.  In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light.  In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

[ghost9191]

@Xilizhra

which is all well and good, the whole equalized peace. but in the end that is not possible with control. the reapers will always be more advanced, will be the ones that will enforce that peace. to have a race rise to be equals of th ereapers would put that peace at risk so would have to ensure that would not happen. even if that means keeping that at a certain level of tech, which they have been doing

or something like that. that is just how i see control working. but just me.

[xsdob]

So?

[Xilizhra]

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

And who says Shepard will keep maintaining power? I would argue that having Shepard's memories and morals would give the new catalyst a much more flexible viewpoint, so if the galaxy is better running by itself, it will leave.

Unfortunately, the Shepardlyst's speech implies that the Reapers aren't going anywhere.  Claiming that the Shepardlyst would just make them leave enters the realm of headcanon.  I have nothing against headcanon personally, since using it is the only way for me to feel comfortable with any ending at all.  However, as soon as headcanon enters the picture, what happens in-game is no longer relevant.

When I examine the various EC endings solely on what each presents, I still prefer Destruction (but by a very narrow margin).  The galaxy is free to determine its own fate without Reaper influence, and I find the cutscenes to be much less creepy.  With headcanon, Destruction wins hands-down, since I remove the genocidal element.

Similarly, you may prefer Control as it is presented in-game, and you might like it better when your headcanon sends the Reapers off to Andromeda or whatever.

[DuffyMJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

Right, which is how you enter audience with a lord. Enter, kneel, stand again... Oh yeah and then evaporate into oblivion!

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

. Or you can stand strong, blasting as you go

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

. Or you can stand strong, blasting as you go

Stand strong for genocide? I think not.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's not mind control much less mass. And grabbing the Reapers to make them seek peace isn't an atrocity at all.

Mixed up Control and Synthesis.  See response to Lizardviking.

Bonus question: What if it weren't a Reaper invasion, and something more like the turians or the asari were the aggressors?  Assume conventional victory is not possible and that the Crucible is the only option.

I would do the exact same thing, except even moreso because I'd be certain that not all of the aggressors were evil.

. There is no reason to assume that some reapers are nice.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

And who says Shepard will keep maintaining power? I would argue that having Shepard's memories and morals would give the new catalyst a much more flexible viewpoint, so if the galaxy is better running by itself, it will leave.

Unfortunately, the Shepardlyst's speech implies that the Reapers aren't going anywhere.  Claiming that the Shepardlyst would just make them leave enters the realm of headcanon.  I have nothing against headcanon personally, since using it is the only way for me to feel comfortable with any ending at all.  However, as soon as headcanon enters the picture, what happens in-game is no longer relevant.

When I examine the various EC endings solely on what each presents, I still prefer Destruction (but by a very narrow margin).  The galaxy is free to determine its own fate without Reaper influence, and I find the cutscenes to be much less creepy.  With headcanon, Destruction wins hands-down, since I remove the genocidal element.

Similarly, you may prefer Control as it is presented in-game, and you might like it better when your headcanon sends the Reapers off to Andromeda or whatever.

Even if the Reapers are still there, I fail to see how bad it can be as long as long as the Reapers keeps a hands-off aproach.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

. Or you can stand strong, blasting as you go

Stand strong for genocide? I think not.

. It's not genocide, it's winning the war, it had to be done, besides I'm not kneeling for slavery.

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would do the exact same thing, except even moreso because I'd be certain that not all of the aggressors were evil.

In my perspective, a sentient being that no longer has any control over its own mind is dead anyway.  Becoming an indoctrinated puppet is probably similar to being braindead (in fact, long-term indoctrination results in brain death, iirc).

After all, the difference between a sapient creature and a tool is that the sapient creature can self-determinate on some level, independent of outside influence, hence why we consider EDI and Legion to be more "alive" than the Collectors.

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I would do the exact same thing, except even moreso because I'd be certain that not all of the aggressors were evil.

In my perspective, a sentient being that no longer has any control over its own mind is dead anyway.  Becoming an indoctrinated puppet is probably similar to being braindead (in fact, long-term indoctrination results in brain death, iirc).

After all, the difference between a sapient creature and a tool is that the sapient creature can self-determinate on some level, independent of outside influence, hence why we consider EDI and Legion to be more "alive" than the Collectors.

Well, if I kill them all at once or kill them all through that, the end result is the same. Though that may motivate me to do Synthesis.

[DuffyMJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Frankly, the body language says a lot to me too. In control, it's as though Shepard is bowing/kneeling and surrendering himself. In Synthesis, he's throwing his gun down and running, giving in to hope, jumping into the light. In destroy, he's standing tall and boss as hell fighting to the death.

Only briefly; she stands up again at the end.

. Or you can stand strong, blasting as you go

Stand strong for genocide? I think not.

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

[Xilizhra]

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Even if the Reapers are still there, I fail to see how bad it can be as long as long as the Reapers keeps a hands-off aproach.

That can be argued for Paragon!Shepardlyst, I suppose.  However, if some sort of conflict broke out, would P!Shepardlyst let it persist?  Would P!Shepardlyst allow the galaxy to fall into chaos again?

[AlanC9]

Maxster_ wrote...

As for Germany, don't forget, if Germany couldn't get resources from out of the borders, there would be mass starvation and inability to restore to prewar economic and population state.

Indeed. But that's a hole that Germany dug itself into before WWI. Britain did the same, even more so. Cheap frieght made this possible.

But is that the case for clusters in the ME universe? There's no evidence of it. Freight costs in the ME universe seem to be relatively high. There's no evidence of food imports for garden worlds, and energy seems to be almost universally harvested in-system rather then brought in by starship.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[DuffyMJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

[Steelcan]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Even if the Reapers are still there, I fail to see how bad it can be as long as long as the Reapers keeps a hands-off aproach.

That can be argued for Paragon!Shepardlyst, I suppose.  However, if some sort of conflict broke out, would P!Shepardlyst let it persist?  Would P!Shepardlyst allow the galaxy to fall into chaos again?

. RESTART THE CYCLE!!!!!!

[Xilizhra]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

. But you are forcing them to accept an invalid conclusion

[ghost9191]

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

genocide as well     for the most part

the geth ( if they are destroyed in destroy) are a sacrifice , which will be seen as such. casualty of war

still genocide but meaning behind said genocide

sucks as a choice but that is if they are destroyed.

Modifié par ghost9191, 17 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

. But you are forcing them to accept an invalid conclusion

I'm removing their own invalid conclusion, which was based on false information.