279 réponses à ce sujet

[DuffyMJ]

Steelcan wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Even if the Reapers are still there, I fail to see how bad it can be as long as long as the Reapers keeps a hands-off aproach.

That can be argued for Paragon!Shepardlyst, I suppose.  However, if some sort of conflict broke out, would P!Shepardlyst let it persist?  Would P!Shepardlyst allow the galaxy to fall into chaos again?

. RESTART THE CYCLE!!!!!!

Even without a cycle, any kind of intervention by the Shepard Reapers is eliminating the self-determination of living things.

It is the end of the Cosmic Imperative as Javik put it...  There will never be a Krogan-empire under paragon Shepard Repaer.  The Batarian Hegemony will be over under paragon Shepard Reaper.  There will be no obnoxious sensational journalists under renegade Shepard Reaper. 

[Xilizhra]

It is the end of the Cosmic Imperative as Javik put it...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

. But you are forcing them to accept an invalid conclusion

I'm removing their own invalid conclusion, which was based on false information.

. But you are changing who they are, and subsequently everything about them

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, if I kill them all at once or kill them all through that, the end result is the same. Though that may motivate me to do Synthesis.

But Synthesis alters the minds of all individuals at their very core.  The brain of a fused individual is not the same as the brain of an unfused individual.  In fact, if Synthesis creates some sort of collective mind, then the whole concept of individualality may no longer apply at all.

Synthesis is the most existentially dubious of the endings.  However, since there are so few concrete details, it offers the most flexibility in interpretation.  Personally, I have no guarantee that Synthesis doesn't "kill" the entire galaxy, so I can't bring myself to choose it, even if such a utopia is tempting.

In fact, if history and literature have taught me anything, it's that utopias don't exist.  Control and Synthesis both imply utopian endings, and thus I find them immediately suspect.  Destroy doesn't guarantee a perfect galaxy, so to me it feels the most real.

(Oh, and since discussing Synthesis relates to defining identity, you should check out this philosophical problem and the consequences of brain injury on personality.)

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is the end of the Cosmic Imperative as Javik put it...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

. The cosmic imperative is essentially evolution on a grand scale.  Evolution is not a good or bad thing thing, it just is

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Even if the Reapers are still there, I fail to see how bad it can be as long as long as the Reapers keeps a hands-off aproach.

That can be argued for Paragon!Shepardlyst, I suppose.  However, if some sort of conflict broke out, would P!Shepardlyst let it persist?  Would P!Shepardlyst allow the galaxy to fall into chaos again?

Depends on the severity I would guess.

[shepskisaac]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But Synthesis alters the minds of all individuals at their very core.  The brain of a fused individual is not the same as the brain of an unfused individual.  In fact, if Synthesis creates some sort of collective mind, then the whole concept of individualality may no longer apply at all.

Wreav goes to war even in synthesis so it doesn't look like individuality is no longer present.

[Steelcan]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, if I kill them all at once or kill them all through that, the end result is the same. Though that may motivate me to do Synthesis.

But Synthesis alters the minds of all individuals at their very core.  The brain of a fused individual is not the same as the brain of an unfused individual.  In fact, if Synthesis creates some sort of collective mind, then the whole concept of individualality may no longer apply at all.
Synthesis is the most existentially dubious of the endings.  However, since there are so few concrete details, it offers the most flexibility in interpretation.  Personally, I have no guarantee that Synthesis doesn't "kill" the entire galaxy, so I can't bring myself to choose it, even if such a utopia is tempting.
In fact, if history and literature have taught me anything, it's that utopias don't exist.  Control and Synthesis both imply utopian endings, and thus I find them immediately suspect.  Destroy doesn't guarantee a perfect galaxy, so to me it feels the most real.
(Oh, and since discussing Synthesis relates to defining identity, you should check out this philosophical problem and the consequences of brain injury on personality.)

. If you want evidence changes personality then cure the genophage with Wreav, he doesn't try to take over the galaxy

[Steelcan]

IsaacShep wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But Synthesis alters the minds of all individuals at their very core.  The brain of a fused individual is not the same as the brain of an unfused individual.  In fact, if Synthesis creates some sort of collective mind, then the whole concept of individualality may no longer apply at all.

Wreav goes to war even in synthesis so it doesn't look like individuality is no longer present.

. I don't think so, the scene shown is the reconstruction scene

[AdmiralCheez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

It's gussied-up Social Darwinism, which is a naturalistic fallacy and total bullocks.

Javik, you are my squadmate and I love you, but you are a great big bag of dicks.

[DuffyMJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Would you consider the choice of whether or not to do Legion's loyalty mission in Pt. 2 a similar choice? I would personally consider eliminating Geth heretics a genocide because I believe it is religious cleansing.

I rewrote them.

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

Sorry but my identity is defined by my faith, language, intelligence, and way of thinking.  If those are reprogrammed, there is no continuity of identity at all.  You should really rethink what you just wrote, you're talking about continuity of conciousness not identity... Identity is absolutely abused and tortured in the rewrite option.  That is why the heretic decision is such a difficult moral issue in the first place.

Modifié par DuffyMJ, 17 octobre 2012 - 11:21 .

[Steelcan]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

It's gussied-up Social Darwinism, which is a naturalistic fallacy and total bullocks.

Javik, you are my squadmate and I love you, but you are a great big bag of dicks.

. The idea is still valid though, perhaps immoral but still valid

[AdmiralCheez]

Lizardviking wrote...

Depends on the severity I would guess.

But, because we all know how the galaxy works, Shepardlyst will eventuASSUMING CONTROL.

[Steelcan]

DuffyMJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

DuffyMJ wrote...

Is that not eliminating them...? 

Not as living beings. I don't destroy continuity of identity.

Sorry but my identity is defined by my faith, language, intelligence, and way of thinking.  If those are reprogrammed, there is no continuity of identity at all.  You should really rethink what you just wrote, you're talking about continuity of conciousness not identity... Identity is absolutely abused and tortured in the rewrite option.  That is why the heretic decision is such a difficult moral issue in the first place.

. Not for me:bandit:

[fil009]

Depends on EMS how far the galaxy is set back after choosing destroy.

[AdmiralCheez]

Steelcan wrote...

The idea is still valid though, perhaps immoral but still valid.

Nuh-uh.  It implies that "the way things are" is inherently good.

For example, cancer happens naturally all the time.  Should we all get cancer?

[Steelcan]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The idea is still valid though, perhaps immoral but still valid.

Nuh-uh.  It implies that "the way things are" is inherently good.

For example, cancer happens naturally all the time.  Should we all get cancer?

. It's not good or bad, it just is.  Cancer itself has no morality, it just exists due to a malfunction in the life cycle of a cell

[MegaSovereign]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

It's gussied-up Social Darwinism, which is a naturalistic fallacy and total bullocks.

Javik, you are my squadmate and I love you, but you are a great big bag of dicks.

The greatest bag of dicks I've ever bought.

[DuffyMJ]

Xilizhra wrote...

It is the end of the Cosmic Imperative as Javik put it...

Isn't that a good thing? The Cosmic Imperative was a rather vicious and self-serving philosophy.

That's your opinion.  Fortunately, there are not nanites living in my DNA or some kind of odd N7 robo-ghosts floating aroudn in huge space warships with mind control abilities forcing me to agree with you.  I like in that way...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Depends on the severity I would guess.

But, because we all know how the galaxy works, Shepardlyst will eventuASSUMING CONTROL.

As opposed to letting a conflict like the Krogan rebellions go on?

[Steelcan]

Lizardviking wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Depends on the severity I would guess.

But, because we all know how the galaxy works, Shepardlyst will eventuASSUMING CONTROL.

As opposed to letting a conflict like the Krogan rebellions go on?

. Not if Wrex and Eve are alive

[DuffyMJ]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The idea is still valid though, perhaps immoral but still valid.

Nuh-uh.  It implies that "the way things are" is inherently good.

For example, cancer happens naturally all the time.  Should we all get cancer?

You're missing the point, though.  I do not believe in social darwinism presently.  Did I when I worked in a law firm and dealt was exposed to an environment that very much seems to support the idea? Yes.  Do  now in my present job and life situation?  No.  May I go back and later agree with it at another point with more experiences? Sure. Who knows.

The point is, I can believe in it.  Shepard reapers would not allow me to apply the theory of social darwinism should I ever decide to.  The reapers will deter me.  Some folks who may be braver/dumber than I may not be deterred, but they will then be eliminated/indoctrinated by the reapers.  End of story.

[Xilizhra]

DuffyMJ wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The idea is still valid though, perhaps immoral but still valid.

Nuh-uh.  It implies that "the way things are" is inherently good.

For example, cancer happens naturally all the time.  Should we all get cancer?

You're missing the point, though.  I do not believe in social darwinism presently.  Did I when I worked in a law firm and dealt was exposed to an environment that very much seems to support the idea? Yes.  Do  now in my present job and life situation?  No.  May I go back and later agree with it at another point with more experiences? Sure. Who knows.

The point is, I can believe in it.  Shepard reapers would not allow me to apply the theory of social darwinism should I ever decide to.  The reapers will deter me.  Some folks who may be braver/dumber than I may not be deterred, but they will then be eliminated/indoctrinated by the reapers.  End of story.

And if they attempt to do so by harming others, than that is what should happen.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Steelcan wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Depends on the severity I would guess.

But, because we all know how the galaxy works, Shepardlyst will eventuASSUMING CONTROL.

As opposed to letting a conflict like the Krogan rebellions go on?

. Not if Wrex and Eve are alive

I was using an historic example of a conflict that went too far to the point that extreme measures had to be used in order to stop it.

[Steelcan]

Lizardviking wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
Depends on the severity I would guess.

But, because we all know how the galaxy works, Shepardlyst will eventuASSUMING CONTROL.

As opposed to letting a conflict like the Krogan rebellions go on?

. Not if Wrex and Eve are alive

I was using an historic example of a conflict that went too far to the point that extreme measures had to be used in order to stop it.

. Cause the genophage worked out so well?