201 réponses à ce sujet

[Adela]

@Lord Raijin

As berelinde said you don't need the toolkit to "play " the mods you only need it to make them, the ppl who would buy this DLC (if it ever comes to that) will be the ppl who make them, and as for the endorsements and downloads that's just ppl personal preference of the mod for example there are a lot of mods in DA that I don't personally like, and its not about actually making the product. For example if someone makes a custom armor mesh in a 3D application it doesn't take years it takes at least a day if you take a lot of breaks, and in regards of ppl charging for an item , I doubt that the engine license will allow that since it belongs to DICE and im sure they wont allow users to make stuff for commercial use like for example if you get a student version of 3D studio max, it clearly states in the license agreement that ITS NOT TO BE USED FOR COMMERCIAL USE , or for another example the cry engine, also you can play around with it and such but if you want to actually make a game using that particular engine you either make it non profitable or if you want to make it profitable you have to pay for the license

Modifié par ag99, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:12 .

[Realmzmaster]

Lord Raijin wrote...

ag99 wrote...
You also have to take into account, that they will spend EXTRA time to make the toolkit user friendly to all of us, that there takes quite a bit of time and alot of work to do it, so personally I see it as being fair to pay them for the additional work the've put in, to make it possible for us to make mods  as this is not their own engine and its much more complex  then the engine they've used before, as the saying goes "time is money"

It takes a lot of time to create mods that will satisfy the consumers. Look at Skyrim's mod commmunity for an example. Do you think that creating popular mods that gets over 30,000 endorcements and over 1,000,000 unique downloads can happen over night? No. It takes months if not a year to do it. BioWare should want to encourage the Mod writers to expand their creaitivity by giving them the free toolkit to make the game look even better.

I don't want Dragon Age to become another Secondlife... where you must pay to download a mod, or a skin,etc. It will be the downfall.

The majority of PC users do not use mods. Console users cannot use mods. Only a small minority of PC users use mods and even a smaller minority create mods. So basically you are saying Bioware should spend time, money and energy creating a free toolkit for a select few. 
Modders create mods because they want to create mods not because they have to create mods. Modding for most modders is a hobby not a job.

Also remember Bioware is not the only one who gets a say in whether a toolkit gets done. I do believe DICE would have a say.. Bioware would need DICE to help Bioware to create a toolkit. DICE has not done toolkits for its own games. I know of only one mod that has appeared for a Battlefield game using the Frostbite engine.

If Bioware chooses to make a toolkit for free it will need to present a very convincing agrument to EA and DICE for spending any extra resources on it.

A really convincing agrument is to make it dlc and charge a little for it.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:12 .

[Lord Raijin]

Realmzmaster wrote...
The majority of PC users do not use mods. Console users cannot use mods. Only a small minority of PC users use mods and even a smaller minority create mods. So basically you are saying Bioware should spend time, money and energy creating a free toolkit for a select few. 
Modders create mods because they want to create mods not because they have to create mods. Modding for most modders is a hobby not a job.

Also remember Bioware is not the only one who gets a say in whether a toolkit gets done. I do believe DICE would have a say.. Bioware would need DICE to help Bioware to create a toolkit. DICE has not done toolkits for its own games. I know of only one mod that has appeared for a Battlefield game using the Frostbite engine.

If Bioware chooses to make a toolkit for free it will need to present a very convincing agrument to EA and DICE for spending any extra resources on it.

A really convincing agrument is to make it dlc and charge a little for it.

Before we contuine with this debate I want to ask you were are you getting your statistics from? What source? Where did you get the notion that the majority of PC users don't use Mods? As a PC player I am stocked up with mods, especially the ones that fixes the bugs and glitches.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:18 .

[AlanC9]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Before we contuine with this debate I want to ask you were are you getting your statistics from? What source? Where did you get the notion that the majority of PC users don't use Mods?

The download totals from mod hosting sites, perhaps? They're never anything like the total playerbase.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 septembre 2013 - 11:34 .

[MarchWaltz]

Dragon age 2 doesn't offer mod support, and yet there is a nexus page dedicated to it.

I'm confident DAI will have a nexus site as well.

[Deflagratio]

I'm kind of an objectivist when it comes to selecting mods, if any at all. I don't like "Content" mods that add Armors, areas, characters, asset changes or other, what you could call "Artistic interjection" mods. Often my big problem with them, is while isolated they look fantastic, more often than not, they'll stand in an apparent (And painful) contrast with the rest of the game ultimately sucking me out. This is true regardless if the quality of the mod is lower, higher or equal to the quality of vanilla work.

So I myself will stick with "Objective" mods, like graphical updates (As long as they don't change the core art like some do) and unofficial patches.

Another pitfall I have with mods, especially when it comes to modding myself, is once I go down that path, I quickly find 90% of my time is spent modding, 8% of my time is spent testing the mod, and 2% spent realizing I haven't actually played the game in 6months.

Modifié par Deflagratio, 11 septembre 2013 - 12:10 .

[LTD]

Most large and dedicated communities around any game eventually pop out their own cosmetics mods and hairstyle revamps and such scratchings of the surface.People curious about modding prolly don't refer to this stuff when asking questions like ones in OP.

Modifié par LTD, 11 septembre 2013 - 12:38 .

[Lord Raijin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Before we contuine with this debate I want to ask you were are you getting your statistics from? What source? Where did you get the notion that the majority of PC users don't use Mods?

The download totals from mod hosting sites, perhaps? They're never anything like the total playerbase.

 
Yeah and I read from other gaming forums on how console players are considering investing their first gaming PC so they too can experience the total freedom that we PC gamers have with mods. A few of my console playing friends did exactly that.

[Lord Raijin]

MarchWaltz wrote...

Dragon age 2 doesn't offer mod support, and yet there is a nexus page dedicated to it.

I'm confident DAI will have a nexus site as well.

Had BioWare offered mod support for DA2 perhabs the game would've been far better than the orginal quality. One of the most compelling complaints about DA2 was the c/p of dungeons. This problem would've been fixed  had someone been allowed to embrace their creativity by creating a half way decent dungeon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

The download totals from mod hosting sites, perhaps? They're never anything like the total playerbase.

Except for SkyUI, which has what looks like incredible market penetration.

But the whole point of mods is that they're optional.  Each mod is used only by those players who want it.  If every player wanted it, it should have been in the main game in the first place (like SkyUI).

But mods that allow players to play the game differently from how the designers imagined it (like Diversified Follower Armours for DA2, or Detailed Tooltips for DAO) are clearly aimed at a niche audience.  Not all players care about detailed mechanical feedback - but some care about it a whole lot.  Some players even want it not to be there.

To serve all of those groups, the game either needs to have a toggle in it, or that feature needs to be moddable.

Also, we have to consider that not all PC users even know that games can be modded.  Not all PC users have the skills necessary to use mods (sometimes it's easy, but sometimes it's quite difficult).

[Splinter Cell 108]

Realmzmaster wrote...

A really convincing agrument is to make it dlc and charge a little for it.

It's also a stupid idea  that would inevitably hamper modding. You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job. What kind of person is going to pay some company for a hobby that is time intensive, difficult and frustrating at times. If they charge for a toolkit, it will limit how many mods are made and who makes them. A lot of people are not going to want to pay just to make mods and besides if they like modding so much, why waste their time paying for a toolkit for Dragon Age when there are so many other games that do not require payment for a toolkit. 

I still think that this idea of "paying for a toolkit" is ridiculous, it defeats the purpose of modding. Either it should be free or they should not do it at all. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

A really convincing agrument is to make it dlc and charge a little for it.

It's also a stupid idea  that would inevitably hamper modding. You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job. What kind of person is going to pay some company for a hobby that is time intensive, difficult and frustrating at times. If they charge for a toolkit, it will limit how many mods are made and who makes them. A lot of people are not going to want to pay just to make mods and besides if they like modding so much, why waste their time paying for a toolkit for Dragon Age when there are so many other games that do not require payment for a toolkit. 

I still think that this idea of "paying for a toolkit" is ridiculous, it defeats the purpose of modding. Either it should be free or they should not do it at all. 

I think a more appealing offer would be a free toolkit (if they can get their licensing and Frostbite issues cleared away), then give a venue which would be the only place to download mods (possibly through Origin - some type of program that would track that the mod would only work if it was downloaded from a single source), then give the modders the option (if they so choose) to charge for their mods, with Bioware taking a small cut. 

This would give the modders the tools they could use to create high quality content, it could incentivize modders to transition from a hobby to a real source of income (making the quality of mods, including their quality, polish, high functionality/low bug rates and collaborative efforts between multiple modders) and it could, of course, generate revenue for Boware. 

There would be serious logistical obstacles to overcome (much more than I'm making it out to be), but it would solve the problems of toolkits having only the value of fan goodwill, but to also have it make money for Bioware, while stiller img it free to experiment and still have mods available for free distribution, if the modders so desire. 

I think that would be a very effective model if, again, the licensing and technical challenges become less of an issue than what Bioware is dealing with currently today. 

[Realmzmaster]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

A really convincing agrument is to make it dlc and charge a little for it.

It's also a stupid idea  that would inevitably hamper modding. You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job. What kind of person is going to pay some company for a hobby that is time intensive, difficult and frustrating at times. If they charge for a toolkit, it will limit how many mods are made and who makes them. A lot of people are not going to want to pay just to make mods and besides if they like modding so much, why waste their time paying for a toolkit for Dragon Age when there are so many other games that do not require payment for a toolkit. 

I still think that this idea of "paying for a toolkit" is ridiculous, it defeats the purpose of modding. Either it should be free or they should not do it at all. 

Which is why Bioware is considering not doing it if it is going to require to many resources. I simply saying if gamers really want it then they may have to pay for the privilege. If you are really serious about your hobby you buy the tools necessary to pursue it which happens with most if not all hobbies.

[Fast Jimmy]

Which is why Bioware is considering not doing it if it is going to require to many resources. I simply saying if gamers really want it then they may have to pay for the privilege. If you are really serious about your hobby you buy the tools necessary to pursue it which happens with most if not all hobbies.

Yet the problem is that a single software license could cost many times more than the full price of the PC version of the game, and there are likely many such licenses involved with the tools Bioware is using. Unless you are talking about doubling the price of the PC version with a toolkit, it would be pennies on the dollar to Bioware's costs... and even then, it likely wouldn't be enough to completely negate the real deficit.

While I don't disagree with your general premise, I think it winds up being a band-aid on a amputation.

[Firky]

David Gaider wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Interesting. In my (granted, limited) experience, the conversation editor is often the most difficult head to wrestle to the ground in toolkits, while the tilesets and map editors are usually the easiest. For ShadowRun's kit to work the opposite is kind of funny to me. 

Then again... I'm sure you work in a conversation editor like a pro after so many years. So that may be an instance of just being your bread and butter?

Yeah, I'm not certain how difficult a normal person (heh... normal) would find their conversation editor. I just know that I opened it up, loaded one of their conversation files, and started picking out how theirs functions differently from ours. Pretty easy, on the whole, primarily because there are basic functions that conversation editors (good ones, anyhow) would all share.

Crud. I was just finishing off Shadowrun with the intention of looking into its toolset next. This sounds like a worry.

Driftmoon has a relatively straightforward toolset, for others interested. http://www.instantki....com/driftmoon/

[Magdalena11]

berelinde wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

ag99 wrote...
Personally I wouldn't mind paying for it, I mean heck we already pay for DLC's so why would this be any diffrent? Also for all the hard work that BW has put through all their games, I think they damn well deserve the "extra" cash  for a toolkit dlc because its not that easy to program a it to be user friendly

So let me get this straight. When the game gets released It will most likley cost us 60 dollars. When the DLCs gets released it will cost another 10 dollars. Will DA: I get an expansion addition like what DA:O got or will it be like DA2 and have none? That's another 20 dollars if Bioware adds this in.

Thats 90 bucks.

If they damn well deserve the "extra" cash for the tookit dlc then it's fair to say that we damn well deserve the free toolkit for financially supporting the company. Don't you think thats fair?

Toolkits aren't necessary to play mods, only to make them. With that in mind, the only people who would be asked to pay money for a toolkit would be the modders themselves. The time modders devote to the hobby far, far outweighs *any* fee they'd charge for a toolset, to the point that it becomes trivial. People make mods because they enjoy it, or at the very least because they want something done and aren't afraid to do it themselves. Over the years, I've spent thousands of hours making mods for Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate 2 and hundreds of hours making mods for Neverwinter Nights 2. Why would I object to spending $20 for something that will provide that many hours' enjoyment?

So, if BioWare decided that they would only release a toolset if modders would pay for it, I would not hesitate for a moment about buying it.

But I don't think it would come to that. If a toolset cost money to buy or use, some people would want to charge money for the mods they made using it... and that's where it gets messy. If it were a choice between charging money for a toolset or not releasing one at all, the latter is easier and avoids legal headaches.

She isn't lying.  I live with her.  She really does this with mods.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job.

What hobbies are free?  Gaming is a hobby, and we pay for that.  Some hobbies, especially those based on collection, can be quite expensive.

[Splinter Cell 108]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job.

What hobbies are free?  Gaming is a hobby, and we pay for that.  Some hobbies, especially those based on collection, can be quite expensive.

Is gaming as frustrating and annoying(something that seems to be particular with frostbite) as it is to make mods? I think not and I think that if they charged for a toolkit, it would limit modding, are people so desperate that they will PAY for something like a toolkit? This is something that is very wrong with gaming, people are willing to pay for things that are ridiculous. The next thing we need is to have to  pay to make mods. 

Realmzmaster wrote...

Which is why Bioware is considering not doing it if it is going to require to many resources. I simply saying if gamers really want it then they may have to pay for the privilege. If you are really serious about your hobby you buy the tools necessary to pursue it which happens with most if not all hobbies.

I know a lot of people would not be happy with that idea. Paying for a toolkit is mostly unheard of. 

Modifié par Splinter Cell 108, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:45 .

[Realmzmaster]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Which is why Bioware is considering not doing it if it is going to require to many resources. I simply saying if gamers really want it then they may have to pay for the privilege. If you are really serious about your hobby you buy the tools necessary to pursue it which happens with most if not all hobbies.

Yet the problem is that a single software license could cost many times more than the full price of the PC version of the game, and there are likely many such licenses involved with the tools Bioware is using. Unless you are talking about doubling the price of the PC version with a toolkit, it would be pennies on the dollar to Bioware's costs... and even then, it likely wouldn't be enough to completely negate the real deficit.

While I don't disagree with your general premise, I think it winds up being a band-aid on a amputation.

I agree. I do not think a toolkit is in the works. What Bioware may be able to do is give access to the data files. The modders can then use their own tools to create the mod or cobble together a makeshift toolkit from available freeware sources for the community to use. I just do not see Bioware investing resources to make work arounds for the various third-party software being used to provide a user friendly or unfriendly user toolkit.

You know gamers will complain if Bioware released an unfriendly user toolkit and blame EA for it.

[Adela]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job.

What hobbies are free?  Gaming is a hobby, and we pay for that.  Some hobbies, especially those based on collection, can be quite expensive.

Is gaming as frustrating and annoying(something that seems to be particular with frostbite) as it is to make mods? I think not and I think that if they charged for a toolkit, it would limit modding, are people so desperate that they will PAY for something like a toolkit? This is something that is very wrong with gaming, people are willing to pay for things that are ridiculous. The next thing we need is to have to  pay to make mods.

Personally I would pay for something that I enjoy doing and also why is
it so " ridiculous"  to pay someone for their hard work?  Lets say you
have invented something awesome and you spend a creazy amout of time on
it  would you give it for free for all the work you put into it? I dont
think so

Modifié par ag99, 11 septembre 2013 - 02:50 .

[Realmzmaster]

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job.

What hobbies are free?  Gaming is a hobby, and we pay for that.  Some hobbies, especially those based on collection, can be quite expensive.

Is gaming as frustrating and annoying(something that seems to be particular with frostbite) as it is to make mods? I think not and I think that if they charged for a toolkit, it would limit modding, are people so desperate that they will PAY for something like a toolkit? This is something that is very wrong with gaming, people are willing to pay for things that are ridiculous. The next thing we need is to have to  pay to make mods. 

Realmzmaster wrote...

Which is why Bioware is considering not doing it if it is going to require to many resources. I simply saying if gamers really want it then they may have to pay for the privilege. If you are really serious about your hobby you buy the tools necessary to pursue it which happens with most if not all hobbies.

I know a lot of people would not be happy with that idea. Paying for a toolkit is mostly unheard of. 

Gamers and people in general spend money on what they want to do. If a gamer wants to make mods for a particular game and the toolkit provided by the developer is not free the modder has choices. 

Modders can buy the toolkit, use their own tools to create mods, wait for another modder to create tools to mod the game, do not mod the game or mod a game that provides a free toolkit.

A toolkit is an extra that the developer may or may not provide. Most developers will provide them if they can or allow access to the data files if they cannot. Some developers do not provide a toolkit or access to data files.

The developers job is to provide the game anything else is extra and icing on the cake which they can give away for free or charge for it..

[Eveangaline]

I don't know if it will be mod friendly, once it comes out the forums will explode and the mods will have to work overtime.

[addiction21]

Realmzmaster wrote...


The developers job is to provide the game anything else is extra and icing on the cake which they can give away for free or charge for it..

Just felt it needed repeating.

[Firky]

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with paying for a toolset, but surely it would have to have some really serious documentation or support coming along with it.

I managed to make an unpolished standalone campaign module for DA Origins but I had to ask the forum a zillion questions and sort through the wiki. I'm not sure I could buy a toolset and just hope people put the time into creating that stuff.

[Lord Raijin]

ag99 wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Splinter Cell 108 wrote...

You said it yourself, its a hobby not a job.

What hobbies are free?  Gaming is a hobby, and we pay for that.  Some hobbies, especially those based on collection, can be quite expensive.

Is gaming as frustrating and annoying(something that seems to be particular with frostbite) as it is to make mods? I think not and I think that if they charged for a toolkit, it would limit modding, are people so desperate that they will PAY for something like a toolkit? This is something that is very wrong with gaming, people are willing to pay for things that are ridiculous. The next thing we need is to have to  pay to make mods.

Personally I would pay for something that I enjoy doing and also why is
it so " ridiculous"  to pay someone for their hard work?  Lets say you
have invented something awesome and you spend a creazy amout of time on
it  would you give it for free for all the work you put into it? I dont
think so

What would you think if BioWare started charging people to post on their forums? Would you like that idea if they did that? After all don't you enjoy being here? It's one of your hobbies, right?  Why should you be allowed to waste BioWare's precious bandwith by posting here for FREE when you should be giving them money.