201 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Absolutely more so if I actualy like the game and want to mod or use mods for it. I still feel its a nice gift and no developer is obligated to provide free of charge or it should be held against them if there is no toolkit or they choose to charge for it.

Ok. Where does the distinction begin between whether or not something is "free" then? Since your response validates my impression that it's part of the value of the product, and as such it makes it easier for you to buy it (i.e. it's not free.  It's just another feature)

If I do not pay for it it is free. I have been sitting here watching the final of Burn Notice and now the Pats vs Jets game and staring at this reply for over an hour. I dont know how else to say it or if theres something else you want to know.

Yes there is a inherent value for me knowing there is a toolkit available for a game because I am aware of what it can add but it does not make it easier to buy the game. I am buying the game first and if I do not know if I will even like the game. Even if I like the game I still do not know if there will be any mods I will be interested in. It is totally unknown to me so I approach the game and the game alone.

I feel like I only muddied the water.

[Allan Schumacher]

If I do not pay for it it is free. I have been sitting here watching the final of Burn Notice and now the Pats vs Jets game and staring at this reply for over an hour. I dont know how else to say it or if theres something else you want to know.

Well, to start waxing philosophically:

Are sidequests free? Joinable companions (or at least the optional ones)? Is Mass Effect's multiplayer free, but only to someone that doesn't buy the game with the explicit intent of playing the multiplayer?


I ask because games that end up scoring big with supporting mods, like Half-Life and Skyrim, tend to have much greater shelf lives at higher price points.

Would as many people still be okay paying $60 for Skyrim if the game definitively did not have a modding community?

[Demx]

JCAP wrote...

Siradix wrote...

I'm curious, does Dice get a say about a toolset for DAI?

I think so, they're the ones who created the engine.

So wouldn't that mean no toolset? Dice confirmed no modding support for BF4; if DAI were to have a toolset, it sounds like it would be easier to mod BF4 with it.

[TuringPoint]

Will it be module friendly or modification friendly? That is the question.

[Raging Nug]

This has been an engaging read for me.
Big thanks to Allan and David for their continued responses.

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Absolutely more so if I actualy like the game and want to mod or use mods for it. I still feel its a nice gift and no developer is obligated to provide free of charge or it should be held against them if there is no toolkit or they choose to charge for it.

Ok. Where does the distinction begin between whether or not something is "free" then? Since your response validates my impression that it's part of the value of the product, and as such it makes it easier for you to buy it (i.e. it's not free.  It's just another feature)

____________

"Free" is a quick "value evaluation" generalization that many of us use "off the cuff."
The concept "Free" really only comes to into existence when we agree to pay X dollars for something, AND past that "something" we agreed to pay X dollars for -  there is an extra feature that IS added  - that we didn't expect or want or need.

So i think that is a salient point:  the toolkit should be viewn as a "feature."

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I ask because games that end up scoring big with supporting mods, like Half-Life and Skyrim, tend to have much greater shelf lives at higher price points.

Would as many people still be okay paying $60 for Skyrim if the game definitively did not have a modding community?

_______________

Ahhhh the holy grail for those interested in marketing:  "...much greater shelf lives at higher price points.":)

Speaking as someone with a "deep deep interest" on this topic, Skyrim would still have done exceptionally well WITHOUT modding.   Why?  It was the rage - just like Twilight was for another fan base.
BUT modding, certainly helped push it to new heights and maiantin rage factor.
How much?
Without better quality statistics we are only left to speculate with a wide range of error.

Seriously, and I mean seriously, Bioware and EA NEED to get a handle on the fan base they've rounded up and how to monetize it.  I will predict ...Bioware and Bestheda offerings must be packaged/marketed much differently.
It comes down to Introvert leaning vs extravert leaning.  The difference is day and night.
But I fear, the executives won't get it and be left chasing their tails alot of the time and I don't like what that means for the future of Bioware Personna Games.

I have said too much already.
Cheers!

[Allan Schumacher]

Skyrim would still have done exceptionally well WITHOUT modding. Why? It was the rage

I actually agree with this. Half-Life as well, to some extent. Half-Life, to me, is a better example of a modding success story however, but I'll concede that Skyrim probably sells a decent amount of PC copies simply because people know that there will be some mods that come with it.

Whether or not that number is significant, however, I can only speculate on too

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

...but I'll concede that Skyrim probably sells a decent amount of PC copies simply because people know that there will be some mods that come with it.

Whether or not that number is significant, however, I can only speculate on too

__________________________________
So would it be prudent to forecast that the BSNers would have less "ummmpff" and volume about DAI's features that they didn't like - if they were provided with a toolkit to customize more to their taste?
Instead many would be busy modding?!
Hehe...ya i know - some of us mod-lovers are incorrigible.
Forgive us;).

[Lord Raijin]

I haven't played Skyrim since Bethesda announced that they're no longer releasing DLCs or anything else relating to Skyrim. I've been too busy playing Dragon Age lately

I've notice that theirs been some pretty badass mods still being released to this very same day. I've actually downloaded some of them a day ago, and been thinking about getting back into the Skyrim world because of these mods.

So it's just simple. To get more sells you encourage people to make mods from your game by providing them with a toolset

[Allan Schumacher]

So would it be prudent to forecast that the BSNers would have less "ummmpff" and volume about DAI's features that they didn't like - if they were provided with a toolkit to customize more to their taste?
Instead many would be busy modding?!

Well, contrary to what many do think, BioWare (a company that has released two games with toolsets) *does* recognize the types of benefits that can come with the availability of said toolset. We also recognize the costs associated with it.

It's non-trivial, and there's a lot of extra challenges and dependencies that we make use of that complicate things, unfortunately.

I mean, on the plus side, some of the third party stuff that was in earlier Frostbite builds is now being done by in house EA tools (since that evolution still has advantages to us), so it may become more feasible.  I wouldn't bet on it for DAI, unfortunately.

It probably didn't help that our release of the DA Toolset wasn't without its issues as well, which helps solidify concerns and potential costs.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 13 septembre 2013 - 07:25 .

[zMataxa]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

So would it be prudent to forecast that the BSNers would have less "ummmpff" and volume about DAI's features that they didn't like - if they were provided with a toolkit to customize more to their taste?
Instead many would be busy modding?!

Well, contrary to what many do think, BioWare (a company that has released two games with toolsets) *does* recognize the types of benefits that can come with the availability of said toolset. We also recognize the costs associated with it.

It's non-trivial, and there's a lot of extra challenges and dependencies that we make use of that complicate things, unfortunately.

I mean, on the plus side, some of the third party stuff that was in earlier Frostbite builds is now being done by in house EA tools (since that evolution still has advantages to us), so it may become more feasible.  I wouldn't bet on it for DAI, unfortunately.

It probably didn't help that our release of the DA Toolset wasn't without its issues as well, which helps solidify concerns and potential costs.

__________________

I appreciate the explanantion and insight.
Thank you.
If offers some hope (not expectation) for a toolkit.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Whether or not that number is significant, however, I can only speculate on too

I can't imagine it wasn't significant, but it might not have been enough to warrant the toolset on its own.

I suspect the availability of SkyUI had a large impact on the word-of-mouth among PC users.  Initial reaction to the PC UI was pretty bad, but those complaints largely vanished, and I suspect they vanished because the UI was fixable with a mod.

[Lord Raijin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Would as many people still be okay paying $60 for Skyrim if the game definitively did not have a modding community?

I would have a problem paying 60 dollars for Skyrim if the game did not include access to a modding community. I would probably wait for a while until the game goes on sale for half the price, if not a bit lesser.

IMO Skyrim looks and feels like crap without mods.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mods do dramatically improve the game. In fact, any major game that openly supports modding tends to be significantly improved by those mods.

Moreover, when I look at the recent games I have really enjoyed, the big budget ones have all been improved by mods. Just like Skyrim, I think DAO would be a lesser game without mods. I don't think I'd like DAO nearly as much as I do without some of those mods. Learning to play DAO was made much easier by the Detailed Tooltips mod. No Follower Auto-Level vastly improved replayability by letting me assign every talent for every party member.

I get that there are some aspects of game design which either improve the game or make the process of building the game easier while at the same time effectively preventing modding, but it's sometimes hard to believe that those benefits outweigh the benefits of modding.

[jsharper555]

I assume it won't be. Having said that the ability to mod it, at least to the level of DA2, will probably be the determining factor in whether or not I buy it. Even if they jack it up as terribly as they did ME3 modding is fun enough to make up for it.

Modifié par jsharper555, 22 octobre 2013 - 03:11 .

[The_11thDoctor]

Id like the ability to mod it on PS4. Seeing how the next gen consoles qre basically coded and made like pcs in the first place, we should get some mod tools or at least a level editor. Think Infamous 2 type of level editor. We're getting 500 gb HD right off the back with the ability to share videos via a button and stream via a service and youtube. Why not have a perfect game with the ability to add even more fun to the game? Imagine if you will, DAI for a strange reason doesnt get CO-OP or MP, which would be another missed opportunity, but they give us a level editor to have people come up with maps one can take their party thru as a challenge, or have teams online go thru your maps? Surely Bioware wouldnt object to making just enough tools to create player generated levels from existing areas in the game? That would be 1000% better dlc or pdlc or a patch than useless dlc weapons and cosmetic armor or day 1 dlc for extra missions cut from the main game to be sold separately... Not that Bioware would do this in DAI...

[squidney2k1]

Not going to happen.

They'll spout off some stuff about Frostbite 3 being too strenuous to work with to release mod-tools, but the bottom line is that Bioware does not want users creating content that could potentially disrupt their "import" system into the next game. After the freakout over Dragon Age: Origins, it shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doesn't matter what engine they use anymore: in-house, Unreal 3, Frostbite 3.....no more mod tools because of the development direction of "trilogies." Everyone can keep hoping, but you'll just keep being disappointed over and over.

[Kelwing]

squidney2k1 wrote...

Not going to happen.

They'll spout off some stuff about Frostbite 3 being too strenuous to work with to release mod-tools, but the bottom line is that Bioware does not want users creating content that could potentially disrupt their "import" system into the next game. After the freakout over Dragon Age: Origins, it shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doesn't matter what engine they use anymore: in-house, Unreal 3, Frostbite 3.....no more mod tools because of the development direction of "trilogies." Everyone can keep hoping, but you'll just keep being disappointed over and over.

Now you know that will stop nobody. With a will there is a way.

[Angrywolves]

Not that impressed with the DA2 mods.YES some computer savvy player will hack it, but the mods produced will likely be marginal at best.

[KC_Prototype]

They said the new engine complicates things so it's unlikely. I'm going to be on the PS4 so it won't necessarily affect me until they let us have mods.

[addiction21]

squidney2k1 wrote...

Not going to happen.

They'll spout off some stuff about Frostbite 3 being too strenuous to work with to release mod-tools, but the bottom line is that Bioware does not want users creating content that could potentially disrupt their "import" system into the next game. After the freakout over Dragon Age: Origins, it shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doesn't matter what engine they use anymore: in-house, Unreal 3, Frostbite 3.....no more mod tools because of the development direction of "trilogies." Everyone can keep hoping, but you'll just keep being disappointed over and over.

How would it disrupt imports? If people get upset that there is separate content made by independent modders that doesn't get carried over the its not BIoWares fault.

I also have never seen such a complaint until you.

"Trilogies" what? Dragon Age is not a Trilogy.

Did someone get coal in their stocking today and drink too much?

[TKavatar]

EA doesn't want anyone getting their hands on their precious Frostbite, simple as that.

However anything can be modded, given time and patience. We just have to wait a bit that's all.

[addiction21]

TKavatar wrote...

EA doesn't want anyone getting their hands on their precious Frostbite, simple as that.

And that's a bad thing why?

TKavatar wrote...

However anything can be modded, given time and patience. We just have to wait a bit that's all.

Which cant compare with what can be made with a actual tool kit.

[ghostzodd]

squidney2k1 wrote...

Not going to happen.

They'll spout off some stuff about Frostbite 3 being too strenuous to work with to release mod-tools, but the bottom line is that Bioware does not want users creating content that could potentially disrupt their "import" system into the next game. After the freakout over Dragon Age: Origins, it shouldn't surprise anyone.

Doesn't matter what engine they use anymore: in-house, Unreal 3, Frostbite 3.....no more mod tools because of the development direction of "trilogies." Everyone can keep hoping, but you'll just keep being disappointed over and over.

"Why let the modding community do it, when we can sell it to you?"
*yours truly, EA*.