223 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

MichaelStuart wrote...

If you had complete control over the camera while paused, then yes it would be tedious.
What I'm suggesting is that we would only be only be allow to see what the character could realistically see. So you can move the camera left and right, but not all the way round and see what's behind a character.

If the characters don't all face the same direction, again, we can look all around.

Moreover, what the character can see is not the sum total of that of which the character is aware.  Things he just saw and haven't had time to move yet: he knows those things are there.  Things he can hear: he knows those things are there.  The third-person camera isn't designed to simulate what the character can see; the third-person camera is designed to simulate what the character can perceive.

Plus, a movable camera is necessary to simulate depth perception.  Since we're using 2D displays, we need to be able to move the camera to be able to perceive depth.

[Rawgrim]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Both games have problems with the combat. Put two or three mages in a DAO party and the game became a cakewalk on Nightmare level. DAO on the PC allowed for a pet per ranger. Given that the gamer could spec three rangers if the warden was a rogue the party effectively went from 4 to 7 on the PC with 5 on the console. Again you could roll through the game on Nightmare.
Also in DAO the gamer could make the rogue extremely hard to hit by Lothering.
Mage combat in DAO is frustrating because the staff is not used for melee combat. The mage keeps trying to shot bolts from the staff instead of using it to pound the enemy. DA2 at least took a step in the right direction in that regard.

DA2 had problems with the waves and paradropping enemy, but that was addressed in the dlc. The speed of DA2 is at least more realistic than DAO. It may be too fast ( as many have stated), but DAO is too slow. DAO combat is slower than BG and NWN (which are no speed demons).

I do not get the reference to Japanese/anime. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc have faster pace combat than DA2 and are not compared to Japanese/anime.
So I do not see where that comparison comes from.

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

[MichaelStuart]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

If you had complete control over the camera while paused, then yes it would be tedious.
What I'm suggesting is that we would only be only be allow to see what the character could realistically see. So you can move the camera left and right, but not all the way round and see what's behind a character.

If the characters don't all face the same direction, again, we can look all around.

Moreover, what the character can see is not the sum total of that of which the character is aware.  Things he just saw and haven't had time to move yet: he knows those things are there.  Things he can hear: he knows those things are there.  The third-person camera isn't designed to simulate what the character can see; the third-person camera is designed to simulate what the character can perceive.

Plus, a movable camera is necessary to simulate depth perception.  Since we're using 2D displays, we need to be able to move the camera to be able to perceive depth.

If different characters are looking in different directions, that fine, because you have to make sure that they are looking in different directions. Its add meaning to party formation and position.

Its true that a person can use their hearing to guess whats behind them, but then their is treating a character like they're Daredevil and letting them know clearly whats behind them. 
Third-person already gives the character enough perception, be letting you see a small area of ground behind you.

We will still beable to move the camera, just not all the way round.
To see behind, you have to turn the character and risk enemies moving behind you.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MichaelStuart wrote...

To see behind, you have to turn the character and risk enemies moving behind you.

With party-wide move-to-point commands, I don't see how that would make things difficult.

That said, I tend to attack everything from extreme range anyway (if my characters take any damage, I consider the encounter a failure), so my enemies are typically all way out in front of me.

[Shadow Fox]

Rawgrim wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Both games have problems with the combat. Put two or three mages in a DAO party and the game became a cakewalk on Nightmare level. DAO on the PC allowed for a pet per ranger. Given that the gamer could spec three rangers if the warden was a rogue the party effectively went from 4 to 7 on the PC with 5 on the console. Again you could roll through the game on Nightmare.
Also in DAO the gamer could make the rogue extremely hard to hit by Lothering.
Mage combat in DAO is frustrating because the staff is not used for melee combat. The mage keeps trying to shot bolts from the staff instead of using it to pound the enemy. DA2 at least took a step in the right direction in that regard.

DA2 had problems with the waves and paradropping enemy, but that was addressed in the dlc. The speed of DA2 is at least more realistic than DAO. It may be too fast ( as many have stated), but DAO is too slow. DAO combat is slower than BG and NWN (which are no speed demons).

I do not get the reference to Japanese/anime. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc have faster pace combat than DA2 and are not compared to Japanese/anime.
So I do not see where that comparison comes from.

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

And if you think all Japanese games are button mashers you frankly haven't played many japanese games.

And really how do the elves look like anything from Pokemon?

[MichaelStuart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I never found neither Dragon Age game hard on Nightmare, just long and repetitive.
I believe that once a strategy to beat a enemy is found, the enemy should die quickly, regardless of difficultly level.
The actual difficultly should come from having to figure out the strategy, never for how much damage a enemy can take.
Because of this I find games like Assassins Creed more tactical than Dragon Age.

LOLWUT.

Seriously, what? Assassin's Creed: 1. Enable "Block" 2. When enemy attacks, hit "Counter" button. Instakill. 3. If you're feeling gutsy, continue attacking: when you get a kill, if your next attack is uninterrupted, it's also an instakill. And on, and on. BUT 4. If an enemy starts to attack, quickly hit the "Counter" button to prevent them from landing a blow.

There, I just showed you have to beat every Assassin's Creed game without taking any damage (Outside of ranged attackers, which you simply run towards to make them melee)

Assassin's Creed is the inverse of tactical. I enjoy it greatly, but that's actually a well-known flaw of the game.

You actual fight people?
I was referring to the tactics needed to do a stealth kill.

Also, Dragon Age: 1. Move out of "area of effect" 2. kill "Mages" 3. kill "Grunts" 4. Heal 5. gang up on "Boss"
There, I just showed you how to win every combat in Dragon Age.

Modifié par MichaelStuart, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .

[Rawgrim]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Both games have problems with the combat. Put two or three mages in a DAO party and the game became a cakewalk on Nightmare level. DAO on the PC allowed for a pet per ranger. Given that the gamer could spec three rangers if the warden was a rogue the party effectively went from 4 to 7 on the PC with 5 on the console. Again you could roll through the game on Nightmare.
Also in DAO the gamer could make the rogue extremely hard to hit by Lothering.
Mage combat in DAO is frustrating because the staff is not used for melee combat. The mage keeps trying to shot bolts from the staff instead of using it to pound the enemy. DA2 at least took a step in the right direction in that regard.

DA2 had problems with the waves and paradropping enemy, but that was addressed in the dlc. The speed of DA2 is at least more realistic than DAO. It may be too fast ( as many have stated), but DAO is too slow. DAO combat is slower than BG and NWN (which are no speed demons).

I do not get the reference to Japanese/anime. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc have faster pace combat than DA2 and are not compared to Japanese/anime.
So I do not see where that comparison comes from.

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

And if you think all Japanese games are button mashers you frankly haven't played many japanese games.

And really how do the elves look like anything from Pokemon?

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

[Realmzmaster]

Rawgrim wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Both games have problems with the combat. Put two or three mages in a DAO party and the game became a cakewalk on Nightmare level. DAO on the PC allowed for a pet per ranger. Given that the gamer could spec three rangers if the warden was a rogue the party effectively went from 4 to 7 on the PC with 5 on the console. Again you could roll through the game on Nightmare.
Also in DAO the gamer could make the rogue extremely hard to hit by Lothering.
Mage combat in DAO is frustrating because the staff is not used for melee combat. The mage keeps trying to shot bolts from the staff instead of using it to pound the enemy. DA2 at least took a step in the right direction in that regard.

DA2 had problems with the waves and paradropping enemy, but that was addressed in the dlc. The speed of DA2 is at least more realistic than DAO. It may be too fast ( as many have stated), but DAO is too slow. DAO combat is slower than BG and NWN (which are no speed demons).

I do not get the reference to Japanese/anime. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc have faster pace combat than DA2 and are not compared to Japanese/anime.
So I do not see where that comparison comes from.

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

Sorry I do not button mash. I play on a PC. Blood and body parts? You mean like the decapitations in DAO? Which are equally unrealistic. Also in my playthrough of the Last Remnant I did not see enenies spawning all over. My son's jrpgs do not have that function either. In fact many of the jprgs I have seen do not. Oversized weapons? Same size as the ones in DAO in terms of length ( the width may differ), but then there is Ageless (with its messy kills), The Mother's Chosen, Ser Alvard's Sword and Vigilance from Awakening.
Cartoonish attacks like Frightening Visage, Scattershot, Bursting Arrow Whirlwind, Punisher.

I agree with you but that all started before DA2.

[Rawgrim]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Both games have problems with the combat. Put two or three mages in a DAO party and the game became a cakewalk on Nightmare level. DAO on the PC allowed for a pet per ranger. Given that the gamer could spec three rangers if the warden was a rogue the party effectively went from 4 to 7 on the PC with 5 on the console. Again you could roll through the game on Nightmare.
Also in DAO the gamer could make the rogue extremely hard to hit by Lothering.
Mage combat in DAO is frustrating because the staff is not used for melee combat. The mage keeps trying to shot bolts from the staff instead of using it to pound the enemy. DA2 at least took a step in the right direction in that regard.

DA2 had problems with the waves and paradropping enemy, but that was addressed in the dlc. The speed of DA2 is at least more realistic than DAO. It may be too fast ( as many have stated), but DAO is too slow. DAO combat is slower than BG and NWN (which are no speed demons).

I do not get the reference to Japanese/anime. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc have faster pace combat than DA2 and are not compared to Japanese/anime.
So I do not see where that comparison comes from.

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

Sorry I do not button mash. I play on a PC. Blood and body parts? You mean like the decapitations in DAO? Which are equally unrealistic. Also in my playthrough of the Last Remnant I did not see enenies spawning all over. My son's jrpgs do not have that function either. In fact many of the jprgs I have seen do not. Oversized weapons? Same size as the ones in DAO in terms of length ( the width may differ), but then there is Ageless (with its messy kills), The Mother's Chosen, Ser Alvard's Sword and Vigilance from Awakening.
Cartoonish attacks like Frightening Visage, Scattershot, Bursting Arrow Whirlwind, Punisher.

I agree with you but that all started before DA2.

I agree too. It started with Awakening. Still. A decapitation is more belivable than someone exploding from a poke with a dagger. And Hawke "skateboarding" across the battlefield, from a stand-still position, and cutting 5 people in half with one stroke.

[Sylvius the Mad]

If there is a basis for the "Japan" complaint, I'd say its the art direction and the extreme jumping (which, to me, seems to have been drawn from 2D fighting games).

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

And how many JRPGs have you played?

[Neria Rose]

Definitely very much preferred the combat in DAO.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

And how many JRPGs have you played?

3 or 4.

[Maria Caliban]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

... no. 90% of fantasy doesn't have elves. Most fantasy doesn't have button mashing because, you know, books, oral storytelling, and movies lack buttons. Likewise, enemies do not 'spawn all over' in most fantasy stories.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 19 octobre 2012 - 11:48 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Rawgrim wrote...

I agree too. It started with Awakening. Still. A decapitation is more belivable than someone exploding from a poke with a dagger. And Hawke "skateboarding" across the battlefield, from a stand-still position, and cutting 5 people in half with one stroke.

All Hands On Deck is certainly less credible an ability than anything we saw in DAO.

[Plaintiff]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I agree too. It started with Awakening. Still. A decapitation is more belivable than someone exploding from a poke with a dagger. And Hawke "skateboarding" across the battlefield, from a stand-still position, and cutting 5 people in half with one stroke.

All Hands On Deck is certainly less credible an ability than anything we saw in DAO.

Less credible than summoning animals out of thin air?

Less credible than paralyzing enemies with your singing voice?

Really?

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I agree too. It started with Awakening. Still. A decapitation is more belivable than someone exploding from a poke with a dagger. And Hawke "skateboarding" across the battlefield, from a stand-still position, and cutting 5 people in half with one stroke.

All Hands On Deck is certainly less credible an ability than anything we saw in DAO.

Less credible than summoning animals out of thin air?

Less credible than paralyzing enemies with your singing voice?

Really?

You forgot roaring to stun people around you.

[Shadow Fox]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

... no. 90% of fantasy doesn't have elves. Most fantasy doesn't have button mashing because, you know, books, oral storytelling, and movies lack buttons. Likewise, enemies do not 'spawn all over' in most fantasy stories.

Oversized weapons,unrealistic attacks and excessive gore are pretty much staples of fantasy  You'll notice I adressed the elves and mashing comments by themselves.

[Shadow Fox]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

And how many JRPGs have you played?

3 or 4.

Thought so.

[Rawgrim]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

... no. 90% of fantasy doesn't have elves. Most fantasy doesn't have button mashing because, you know, books, oral storytelling, and movies lack buttons. Likewise, enemies do not 'spawn all over' in most fantasy stories.

Oversized weapons,unrealistic attacks and excessive gore are pretty much staples of fantasy  You'll notice I adressed the elves and mashing comments by themselves.

Well, I listed up about 50 games that don`t have any of that. I could do a list of famous fantasy books for you too, if that would convince you.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

And how many JRPGs have you played?

3 or 4.

Then it seems to me that this is largely a case of Complaining about Shows You Don't Watch.

You may find DA:O's combat more believable than DA2's, but it's not actually any more realistic. You would be extremely hard-pressed to find any game (movie, tv show, any media product, really) that accurately simulates medieval combat, because accurate medieval combat is not fun to play or watch.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I wrote "pokemon". And no. i did not describe 90 percent of the fantasy material at all. The BG games didn`t have any oversized weapons or combat movements, neither did Might and Magic 1-9, Ultima 1-9, Planescape Torment, Icewind Dale, Wizardry 1-8, Betrayal at Krondor, any of the other Forgotten Realms games (about 20), the Fallout series, The Elder Scrolls series. None of these. But i am sure over 90 percent of jrpgs have them.

And how many JRPGs have you played?

3 or 4.

Then it seems to me that this is largely a case of Complaining about Shows You Don't Watch.

You may find DA:O's combat more believable than DA2's, but it's not actually any more realistic. You would be extremely hard-pressed to find any game (movie, tv show, any media product, really) that accurately simulates medieval combat, because accurate medieval combat is not fun to play or watch.

The combat itself looked more belivable in DA:O. Allthough some ofthe abilities certainly didn`t. And I listed up games that don`t have cartoony action and oversized weapons, for the other fellow.  He said 90 percent of fantasy had that. I just pointed out  that "most" fantasy games don`t have that at all.

As for realistic medieval combat...No idea. Game of Thrones has combat that looks rather belivable. The Braveheart movie kind of had the same stuff too.

[Shadow Fox]

Rawgrim wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

The oversized weapons, cartoonish attacks, elves looking like they are copied and pasted out of "pokemon". Button mashing like there is no tomorrow. Blood and bodyparts all over. Enemies just spawning all over.

Thats where it comes from.

You just decribed 90% of fantasy materials and legends.

... no. 90% of fantasy doesn't have elves. Most fantasy doesn't have button mashing because, you know, books, oral storytelling, and movies lack buttons. Likewise, enemies do not 'spawn all over' in most fantasy stories.

Oversized weapons,unrealistic attacks and excessive gore are pretty much staples of fantasy  You'll notice I adressed the elves and mashing comments by themselves.

Well, I listed up about 50 games that don`t have any of that. I could do a list of famous fantasy books for you too, if that would convince you.

Just 50? Thanks for agreeing with me and I really find that hard to believe that none of those games feature top tier epic weapons at all. And I'm sure for everyone there is a Conan or a Stormbringer

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...
The combat itself looked more belivable in DA:O. Allthough some ofthe abilities certainly didn`t. And I listed up games that don`t have cartoony action and oversized weapons, for the other fellow.  He said 90 percent of fantasy had that. I just pointed out  that "most" fantasy games don`t have that at all.

As for realistic medieval combat...No idea. Game of Thrones has combat that looks rather belivable. The Braveheart movie kind of had the same stuff too.

No, I'm afraid Game of Thrones is also completely bunk. It's "believable" because it's in line with what movies and tv have been showing us for decades, but what they've been showing us isn't accurate and never has been.

Most of this article deals with guns, but check out entry number four: http://www.cracked.c...-to-movies.html.

I did see your list, and all I have to say is that it would be pretty tricky to show 'oversized' anything when you're working with the limited graphical capabilities that most of those games had to make do with.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .