47 réponses à ce sujet

[Alexis Valentine]

I've just finished battling Loghain and, although I didn't want him dead, I knew that if I let him live Alistair would leave. So I said he would die, but then said "I can't do it." - But then Alistair did. I felt quite bad for Loghain and Anora - is Loghain really that evil? Did I miss out on a great companion? Not sure if my decision was right...

Now I don't know whether to let Anora or Alistair have the throne...

[Default137]

If you take him with you, you learn Cailan was the person who came up with the plan for Ostagar, was the one who refused to wait for reinforcements, and who blindly charged in, and that Loghain couldn't have changed the outcome no matter what he did.



He's actually got quite a few really good lines, and brings up quite a few very interesting points if you have him in your party, so I suggest taking him with you on a later character, just to get his side of the story, although, with all this said, yes he is an immoral paranoid bastard.

[Skellimancer]

Killing Loghain solves nothing, he is much more use alive.

[ConnorIsHere]

I knew he would be strong, but the bastard must die for his actions. He tried to have me assassinated, let elf slavery go on and load of other **** he needed to die to be realistic about things

[Skellimancer]

ConnorIsHere wrote...

I knew he would be strong, but the bastard must die for his actions. He tried to have me assassinated, let elf slavery go on and load of other **** he needed to die to be realistic about things

Nobody is perfect.

[ConnorIsHere]

Not everyone is an evil bastard like him though. Die Loghain!

[MyKingdomCold]

I agree. He needed to die. He spends the game spreading lies about you and having a bounty on your head. Would he spare me if he won the duel?

[Default137]

LostScout wrote...

Default137 wrote...

If you take him with you, you learn Cailan was the person who came up with the plan for Ostagar, was the one who refused to wait for reinforcements, and who blindly charged in, and that Loghain couldn't have changed the outcome no matter what he did.

He's actually got quite a few really good lines, and brings up quite a few very interesting points if you have him in your party, so I suggest taking him with you on a later character, just to get his side of the story, although, with all this said, yes he is an immoral paranoid bastard.

I disagree completely, Loghain is a self serving liar.  I was at the planning meeting.  Cailan wanted to wait for the Orlesians and their Grey Wardens.  If you look at the troops Loghain had with him, every one of them was heavy infantry.  A charge in the flank with a formation of heavy infantry would have been devastating.  Loghain betrayed Cailan because he didn't want Orlesians in Ferelden.  And in that same planning meeting, Cailan makes it very clear it is Loghain's plan.  The only part Loghain is right about is that Cailan insisted on being in the center with the Gray Wardens.

*shrugs*

This ends up being a debate of who said what, and who we believe.

Loghain has very little to lie near the end of the game, he was a Gray Warden, had learned he was going to be the guy who kills the Archdemon, and knew he was going to die, he was being grilled by Wrynne as to why he did what he did at Ostagar, and basically said that it was never his plan to begin with, it was Cailans, and that he only decided to leave because he saw that even if he had charged, Cailan would have died, and he would have suffered tremendous losses, and was worried that the survivors would not be able to hold back Orlais if it were to attack.

Cailan at the start presents himself as an idiot searching for glory, trying to get people to want to help him, if you listen to the guards at their tents, you learn that Loghain and Cailan had been argueing about the battle plan for days now, further adding to the suggestion that the plan is in fact Cailans. Add in how annoyed Loghain was about the plan itself, and yeah, if I was a great General making up some plans, I don't think I would be so pissed at my own plan.

[MyKingdomCold]

I wouldn't have had that big of a problem with him if he didn't spend the entire game trying to cover up what he did.

[Truncated Flea]

I wouldn't say it's a wrong decision, since any way you want to play your character is viable. When I spared him though I did find that having him in my party changed my perception of him, and made him a more interesting character for me. So I'd say it's worth doing once, just to see whether you consider it worth it or whether you still think Loghain deserves nothing other than a swift beheading at the first opportunity.

[robertthebard]

Let's take a good look at the City Elves, since everyone wants to get hung up on the slavery thing. The condition of the Denerim Alienage isn't an overnight thing. Elves in the alienage have been less than slaves for a long time. While I do believe that Loghain is a right bastard, the only thing he changed in the alienage is who's doing the slavery. Based on Vaughn's attitude, either in the actual origin, or in the dungeon of his own estate under Howe, the only good thing I can see Howe ever doing, that's all that changed, he's no longer pulling women out for his and his mate's pleasure at will. He's no longer beating them for something to do, or killing them like some Orlesian lap dog. Now, instead, it's Tevinter. These conditions are allowed to continue under Cailin, and probably under Maric as well.



The only time people care about the plight of the City Elves is when they can say "Loghain sold them as slaves". I'm sure Shianni can really tell the difference, at least they aren't raping her this time, eh? Yes, Loghain is a right bastard, but Cailin, Anora and possibly Maric were no better where the Alienage was concerned.



Regarding the battle plan, turn on subtitles. It's a lot easier to understand what's going on there that way. The strategy for Ostagar was Loghain's plan. The part he protested, aside from at least looking like he was trying to keep Cailin off the front lines was entrusting the Wardens to light the beacon. I've read here that he conspired with the darkspawn to take the tower, but I'm not sure I buy that. I think he was more against it because he actually wanted all the Wardens on the field.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Imo, yes it was a wrong decision. Listening to a whiny brat who has the audacity to claim he is a Grey Warden is a mistake. If Alistair deserved respect, or better yet commanded respect, I might not have thought about sparing Loghain (even then, I would have probably spared him).

[ItsTakenStopAsking]

I can't blame Loghain for some of the actions he took, he wanted a Ferelden that was completely united and independent overall, despite the path he took.



For those who judge him by his actions, one of Flemeths lines ultimately kept me from killing him in the end which was immediately after Alistair says "I don't know, the throne? he's the father of the queen, though i can't see how he'll get away with murder" to which she replies somethig along the lines of "You speak as if he would be the first king to gain his throne that way. Grow up boy!"



It's the human variable of bhelen versus harrowmont, bhelen employs ruthless tactics and leads the dwarves to prosperity, whereas harrowmont is a benevolent ruler who almost takes the dwarves backwards in history and accomplishes little. Would loghain be a better king than Cailan? who knows, but i'm fairly certain he wouldn't be on the front lines to crush his forces morale should he fall.

[ejoslin]

LostScout wrote...

Yes, Loghain is really that evil, but that doesn't mean his daughter doesn't love him. I feel bad for the families of all the soldiers at Ostagar who died because he decided to stage a coup and get rid of Cailan. I feel bad for the elves who were enslaved or killed because of Loghain. Anora thinks she is a great queen, but the Alienage in Denerim is a cesspool, right in her capital city. Sons of nobles are raping and murdering citizens, other nobles are slaughtering the families of Teryns while their troops are out supporting the king. Alistair at least has a sense of decency. Make him king this time. Next time, go with Loghain, it's worth seeing the different endings.

Well, to shed a different light on the Cousland massacre, many lords wanted Bryce Cousland as king, even over Cailin.  It was part of the coup, for if Bryce Cousland had lived, Loghain could not have stepped in the way he had.  And Alistair is always king in name only, though better things happen.  However, the string puller will either be Eamon, Anora, or the PC.  King Alistair is more interested in sneaking out of the castle to party with lower classes and go off adventuring on his own.

[sesheta255]

I have a big problem with letting Loghain go through the joining after everything he did. He's been in cahoots with Howe from the start (much to my human nobles disgust), the Couslands were too powerful and would have been a threat to his grab for power, just as Eamon was. He had always planned on taking control, probably from the first time that Cailan mentioned getting help from the Orlesians. He protested a bit too much when Cailan suggested having the Wardens light the beacon instead of the non-existant, or expendable men he had in the tower, it was always his plan to quit the battlefield as soon as the kings forces where swamped. He may have been a hero once, but now he is just an insane, self serving bastard. There's no way, after everything he's done, that I will let him live, let alone become a Warden, then possibly slay the archdemon and retain his hero status, or have it elevated to god-like worship. As for Anora, my only regret is that I can't take her head off at the same time, she is her father's daughter, a conniving, self serving **** who wants to retain her power at all costs. If you've hardened Alistair, he sums them both up pretty well when you speak to him after the initial talk you have with Anora.

[Joshd21]

Killing Loghain puts you in bad favor with the daughter of his and she won't wed you knowing you killed her dad. Though he makes a very good tank, he is even better then Allister. Personally, I think Shale is the best tank because of his ablitys. Though that's just me.

If you don't kill him at the end he willl become a recuriter for the grey warden's. And there is no option for him to kill the dragon instead of you, unlike there is with Allister. I haven't seen the ending without doing the dark ritual because I think the storyline is too hevy. I only wish you could keep questing like you can in fable and the people's reaction be favored or scared depending on your past choices.

[Sensorie]

In terms of gameplay and story it's worth seeing his character, but does he deserve to die? Even if Cailan was battle foolhardy seeking glory, Loghain lied about the Grey Wardens betraying the king, put a bounty on their heads, hired an Antivan assassin, corroborated with an apostate mage to poison Arl Eamon, condoned slavery in the Alienage, and allowed Howe's torturing of nobility. Regardless of the battle plan or his personal views on the "fairy tales" of Grey Wardens, there is no justification for his heinous actions after the battle.

The Tower of Ishal was declared off limits by Loghain due to its "lower ruins" no? He had every intention of fleeing the battle; allowing the darkspawn to overrun the tower preventing the beacon from being lit would have allowed his actions to slip by unnoticed as betrayal.

Modifié par Sensory, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:01 .

[RSTORM50]

I've done the ending where I spare Loghain and not doing the ritual with Morrigan. When the Archdemon goes down Loghain tells you it should be him to take the final blow and will do so if allowed. He gets tapped to head GW recruitment when he survives the final battle.

[Obadiah]

I was gonna let Loghain live, but my BFF on that playthrough convinced me otherwise.

[Draws finger across throat.]

Edit: Well, that and he endorsed to plan to have my parents killed. I mean, when that's the setup, who really cares what compelling reasons he had.

Modifié par Obadiah, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:12 .

[RSTORM50]

Sparing Loghain opens up some interesting conversations with him if you take the time to have them. I used the console command to up his approval to 100 and had the conversations with him. You definitely get some interesting insight into him, in particular his hatred for Orlais, and his revelation he had no intention of killing Anora and makes mention of how she is a politician but that having the GW recuse her gave her no small amount of pleasure.

[eschilde]

I'm pretty interested in seeing what the Ostagar DLC has to offer, if anything, by way of Cailin's plans and what actually happened at Ostagar. I have a seriously hard time believing that Loghain completely premeditated the whole leaving the king to die thing precisely because of his loyalty to Fereldan. I have not read the books, but from what's said in the game and what has been said in the forums, Loghain was Maric's best friend, and no matter how paranoid he may have been about the Orlesians, leaving his best friend's son to die is a pretty harsh thing to do.

My take on this is sort of like: his situation is pretty similar to Sten's, except.. on a bigger scale. Much bigger. Sten slaughtered innocents and, although he seeks redemption, what he feels remorse about is not necessarily the actual killing of the family but rather that he forgot his discipline. The difference between Sten and Loghain is, Loghain left a large portion of hardened soldiers to die, rather than killing innocents with his own hand, and he engaged in distasteful practices in cold logic, but for what he considered to be the greater good. Poisoning Arl Eamon in order to secure power and collaborating with Tevinter slavers to fill the coffers may not have been lawful good decisions, but he does say it in the Landsmeet: war is not something pretty and it does tend to be expensive, especially if you lost a good portion of soldiers and equipment already. Putting imaginary armor on new soldiers and paying them with leprechaun gold doesn't tend to work well.

Even if you defeat Loghain, he will not think his actions at the time were wrong. The only thing he will admit he was wrong about was judging your strength. Certainly, the results of his actions were not good, but if you hadn't been working against him he probably would have succeeded in uniting Fereldan and then worked on defeating the darkspawn horde, so perhaps he is right in that regard.  

Basically what I am trying to say is, both decision are right if you can justify them to yourself. There's no doubt that Loghain should have been removed from power, but the proper punishment for his crimes can certainly go either way. I dislike seeing, "You should spare Loghain because Alistair is a whiny brat," or reverse arguments, because that doesn't really answer the question.

In my opinion, killing Loghain is a proper punishment for his crimes, but making him atone by becoming a Grey Warden can be one too. There's certainly no doubt that allowing Howe to do the things he did (torturing nobles..?) or selling elves to slave traders was something that was not approved of by the nobles. I'm not sure what the law actually says at that time, but certainly slavery appears to be illegal at least. Loghain does not think he is responsible for Howe, but by elevating Howe to the position he was in and allowing Howe to do the things he did with full knowledge does make Loghain responsible by not stopping it, at least by modern laws. Life in prison isn't really an option for Loghain because he's too dangerous. This is the same reason Anora orders Alistair executed if he tries to fight her for the throne, and the reason Bhelen has Harrowmont executed upon gaining his throne. However, making him a Grey Warden is supposed to take his teeth out, so to speak, or at least he can't work against the Grey Wardens anymore. 

It depends on how you're roleplaying it, unless you don't care and you're metagaming. You should consider at this point that your character does not know that the Grey Warden that strikes the killing blow will die and that Riordan will never kill the Archdemon, or that Alistair will leave the Grey Wardens completely if you choose to recruit Loghain. If you agree with Alistair that becoming a Grey Warden is not a punishment, then the only option is death. If you think he deserves the chance to redeem himself because he was doing what he thought was best for Fereldan, then certainly recruiting him is the better option. 

If you talk to Anora before, she will tell you that she will accept her father's death, should it be necessary, but that she would prefer that he live if possible. If you kill him, she will mourn, but she won't hold it against you too much unless you're trying to marry her. She understands (probably better than anyone else in the game) the price of politics. In my opinion, you shouldn't feel bad for Anora for killing her father, since he was responsible for his own actions and judgment as fallen into your hands. You are not doing her a wrong by killing Loghain. However, if you agree to support her bid for the throne and reneg, then feeling bad is justified :b

Kudos to Bioware for making it such a tough decision.

Gameplay-wise, it's certainly worth recruiting him at least to understand his reasoning more. And Loghain is actually pretty cool once you get past the whole he-tried-really-hard-to-get-you-killed thing. Whew, long, rambly post, hope it makes sense..

Modifié par eschilde, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .