47 réponses à ce sujet

[guitarbard]

I was so dead-set on killing him until he said that thing to Anora about always being a little girl to her father. Just to know that he has that tiny bit of humanity still left in him (he pissed me off ROYALLY at the Landsmeet) makes me want to add him to my party just once to see what happens.

[Gold Dragon]

My last run-thru (with a hardened Alistair), had Alistair on the Throne alone, trying hard to learn to govern.



Anora: You show uncharacteristic wisdom...

Alistair: Well, don't let it get around. I have a reputation.



At no time did she say anything about compassion.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Killing Loghain is a good choice. There are justifications you can use to keep him alive, but he stacked the deck pretty high against his own cause.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 31 décembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Arkaelis]

I killled Loghain the first time around and I regretted it since I like to RP goody-two-shoe characters that show mercy.

The second time around I spared Loghain and told Alistair where to shove it. I would pay good money for a "Punch Alistair" mod for this moment.

[mrofni]

Arkaelis wrote...

The second time around I spared Loghain and told Alistair where to shove it. I would pay good money for a "Punch Alistair" mod for this moment.

There is a b**** slap Morrigan mod. And Morrigan approves.

[keesio74]

Loghain is not evil. But he is deranged and horribly misguided.



At the end he comes around to see he f**ked up royally. And I actually felt bad killing him too. I would have spared him if Alistair would not bail if you did. I wanted him to try and redeem himself in some way to try and payback for some of his numerous sins.

[Sarethus]

eschilde wrote...

I'm pretty interested in seeing what the Ostagar DLC has to offer, if anything, by way of Cailin's plans and what actually happened at Ostagar. I have a seriously hard time believing that Loghain completely premeditated the whole leaving the king to die thing precisely because of his loyalty to Fereldan. I have not read the books, but from what's said in the game and what has been said in the forums, Loghain was Maric's best friend, and no matter how paranoid he may have been about the Orlesians, leaving his best friend's son to die is a pretty harsh thing to do.

A few points I'd like to make:
1) The plan at Ostagar was Loghain's and was a good enough plan that even Duncan was convinced it would work (At least for that particular battle.)
2) Loghain had made all the prior preperations for the coup before hand (Allying with Uldred and Howe, poisoning Eamon etc)
3) Loghain might not have wanted to kill Cailan in particular but rather just wipe out the grey wardens. Remember he did try to persuade Cailan not to fight along side the wardens. Note: This could have been just a way of using reverse psychology to make sure Cailan would fight alongside the wardens.

Spoiler:
4) Read this comment about Loghain in which David Gaider gives some insight. Note: He does refer to some info from the first book so be prepered to be spoiled if you haven't read it.

[robertthebard]

Sarethus wrote...

eschilde wrote...

I'm pretty interested in seeing what the Ostagar DLC has to offer, if anything, by way of Cailin's plans and what actually happened at Ostagar. I have a seriously hard time believing that Loghain completely premeditated the whole leaving the king to die thing precisely because of his loyalty to Fereldan. I have not read the books, but from what's said in the game and what has been said in the forums, Loghain was Maric's best friend, and no matter how paranoid he may have been about the Orlesians, leaving his best friend's son to die is a pretty harsh thing to do.

A few points I'd like to make:
1) The plan at Ostagar was Loghain's and was a good enough plan that even Duncan was convinced it would work (At least for that particular battle.)
2) Loghain had made all the prior preperations for the coup before hand (Allying with Uldred and Howe, poisoning Eamon etc)
3) Loghain might not have wanted to kill Cailan in particular but rather just wipe out the grey wardens. Remember he did try to persuade Cailan not to fight along side the wardens. Note: This could have been just a way of using reverse psychology to make sure Cailan would fight alongside the wardens.

Spoiler:
4) Read this comment about Loghain in which David Gaider gives some insight. Note: He does refer to some info from the first book so be prepered to be spoiled if you haven't read it.

There is no indication anywhere that Loghain actually allied with Uldred.  The only time it comes up, it was in the meeting where he tried to seize control of the Circle, and we only get this knowledge second or even third hand.  This is, however, a situation where just because Uldred said it was so, doesn't necessarily mean it was.  It could just as easily been an attempt to gain control, using some pretty tempting bait.

[Arkaelis]

mrofni wrote...

Arkaelis wrote...

The second time around I spared Loghain and told Alistair where to shove it. I would pay good money for a "Punch Alistair" mod for this moment.

There is a b**** slap Morrigan mod. And Morrigan approves.

I have been tempted to try that mod.

[JaegerBane]

robertthebard wrote...

Let's take a good look at the City Elves, since everyone wants to get hung up on the slavery thing. The condition of the Denerim Alienage isn't an overnight thing. Elves in the alienage have been less than slaves for a long time. While I do believe that Loghain is a right bastard, the only thing he changed in the alienage is who's doing the slavery. Based on Vaughn's attitude, either in the actual origin, or in the dungeon of his own estate under Howe, the only good thing I can see Howe ever doing, that's all that changed, he's no longer pulling women out for his and his mate's pleasure at will. He's no longer beating them for something to do, or killing them like some Orlesian lap dog. Now, instead, it's Tevinter. These conditions are allowed to continue under Cailin, and probably under Maric as well.

The only time people care about the plight of the City Elves is when they can say "Loghain sold them as slaves". I'm sure Shianni can really tell the difference, at least they aren't raping her this time, eh? Yes, Loghain is a right bastard, but Cailin, Anora and possibly Maric were no better where the Alienage was concerned.

Your logic is about as circular as it can get. First of all, I have absolutely no idea where you managed to get the idea that the Elves issue only gets mentioned when people want to complain about Loghain. The fact that Maric, and Cailan, allowed the cesspit-style conditions to continue doesn't somehow make Loghain's slavery deal 'better', or even have any relevance to it. Allowing the Elves to live in such conditions was a pretty indefencible lack of action, true. But how is that related to what Loghain is doing? How is Loghain's actions in setting up a slave ring somehow mitigated by the fact that Maric and Cailan turned a blind eye to it? And exactly how does Anora somehow get out of this scot-free despite being the 'true' ruler?

Frankly it sounds like you're trying to wave other random lapses of judgement in front of Loghain's actions to somehow distract from it. Two wrongs don't make a right and in this, the two wrongs have virtually nothing to do with it. Even Loghain himself doesn't even start mewling about what Maric and Cailan didn't do when he's called to defend his actions (granted, his actual explanation is so absurd it's barely worth saying, but hey, the point still stands).

[Ponce de Leon]

As far as Loghain did bad, I cannot kill someone that yields. Not even if all what happens in the game happened to me in real life. In real life, I would probably knock down Alistair at his attempt of killing Loghain himself. Then I'd make him and Anora the rulers under one condition : If Alistair decides to kill Loghain, I'd kill Alistair myself. Then I'd take my armies of Abominations, werewolves, broodmothers and kill the Archdemon (of course jumping into action with Morrigan! )

[Sabriana]

dark-lauron wrote...

As far as Loghain did bad, I cannot kill someone that yields. Not even if all what happens in the game happened to me in real life. In real life, I would probably knock down Alistair at his attempt of killing Loghain himself. Then I'd make him and Anora the rulers under one condition : If Alistair decides to kill Loghain, I'd kill Alistair myself. Then I'd take my armies of Abominations, werewolves, broodmothers and kill the Archdemon (of course jumping into action with Morrigan! )

Rofl. I'm sorry, I'm not laughing about you, but for some reason your post made me laugh out loud. Drawing a concerned look from my cat, btw.

There is really no right or wrong decision. I let Alistair kill him the first time around, but on subsequent play-throughs he always lives. He usually dies shortly thereafter, but I reloaded once just to see his reaction to Morrigan's proposal. It was hilarious, I tell you.

I won't go into why I make this decision, I've explained it plenty all over the board, but the bottom line is that it is your decision to make. However, I would recommend letting him live at least once. He may surprise you. Whether in a good or bad way once again depends entirely on you and your style of RPGing.

[LynxAQ]

Murderer!! You killed the hero of Ferelden. Redemption should of been the only path for the great Loghain. Only a coward with no honour would kill a man in a duel AFTER he surrendered. Hence why Alistair is known as a whiney annoying coward.



Killing Loghain is the equivilent of Luke Skywalker just chopping off Darth Vaders head after he won the dual. The ability to allow forgiveness and giving someone the chance to redeem themselves is by far the more noble thing to do. Executing Loghain is the cowards way out.



But yeah it does depend on how you RP your character at the end of the day. I always try to RP as accurately as the game allows me to. But I shed a tear everytime I have to RP kill Loghain . However it does make me delighted and happy everytime I get to allow him to be redeemed.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

LynxAQ wrote...
But yeah it does depend on how you RP your character at the end of the day. I always try to RP as accurately as the game allows me to. But I shed a tear everytime I have to RP kill Loghain . However it does make me delighted and happy everytime I get to allow him to be redeemed.

QFT! I find myself in same situation, really enjoyed my 4th playthrough where I finally spared him and let him redeem myself and now will find it tough going through the playthroughs where I know am gonna kill him and be super happy when I spare him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Default137 wrote...
This ends up being a debate of who said what, and who we believe.

Loghain has very little to lie near the end of the game, he was a Gray Warden, had learned he was going to be the guy who kills the Archdemon, and knew he was going to die, he was being grilled by Wrynne as to why he did what he did at Ostagar, and basically said that it was never his plan to begin with, it was Cailans, and that he only decided to leave because he saw that even if he had charged, Cailan would have died, and he would have suffered tremendous losses, and was worried that the survivors would not be able to hold back Orlais if it were to attack.

Loghain is lying to himself to boot. I repeat - David confirmed that Loghain was plotting BEFORE Ostagar.
Everything was his fault. His battle plan. His retreat. His lies. His incompetence.

Cailan was brash, but he wasn't an idiot.

Cailan at the start presents himself as an idiot searching for glory, trying to get people to want to help him, if you listen to the guards at their tents, you learn that Loghain and Cailan had been argueing about the battle plan for days now, further adding to the suggestion that the plan is in fact Cailans. Add in how annoyed Loghain was about the plan itself, and yeah, if I was a great General making up some plans, I don't think I would be so pissed at my own plan.

They were agruing about Anora mostly. and hte battle plan was Loghains. That is a fact.

[robertthebard]

JaegerBane wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Let's take a good look at the City Elves, since everyone wants to get hung up on the slavery thing. The condition of the Denerim Alienage isn't an overnight thing. Elves in the alienage have been less than slaves for a long time. While I do believe that Loghain is a right bastard, the only thing he changed in the alienage is who's doing the slavery. Based on Vaughn's attitude, either in the actual origin, or in the dungeon of his own estate under Howe, the only good thing I can see Howe ever doing, that's all that changed, he's no longer pulling women out for his and his mate's pleasure at will. He's no longer beating them for something to do, or killing them like some Orlesian lap dog. Now, instead, it's Tevinter. These conditions are allowed to continue under Cailin, and probably under Maric as well.

The only time people care about the plight of the City Elves is when they can say "Loghain sold them as slaves". I'm sure Shianni can really tell the difference, at least they aren't raping her this time, eh? Yes, Loghain is a right bastard, but Cailin, Anora and possibly Maric were no better where the Alienage was concerned.

Your logic is about as circular as it can get. First of all, I have absolutely no idea where you managed to get the idea that the Elves issue only gets mentioned when people want to complain about Loghain. The fact that Maric, and Cailan, allowed the cesspit-style conditions to continue doesn't somehow make Loghain's slavery deal 'better', or even have any relevance to it. Allowing the Elves to live in such conditions was a pretty indefencible lack of action, true. But how is that related to what Loghain is doing? How is Loghain's actions in setting up a slave ring somehow mitigated by the fact that Maric and Cailan turned a blind eye to it? And exactly how does Anora somehow get out of this scot-free despite being the 'true' ruler?

Frankly it sounds like you're trying to wave other random lapses of judgement in front of Loghain's actions to somehow distract from it. Two wrongs don't make a right and in this, the two wrongs have virtually nothing to do with it. Even Loghain himself doesn't even start mewling about what Maric and Cailan didn't do when he's called to defend his actions (granted, his actual explanation is so absurd it's barely worth saying, but hey, the point still stands).

Can you link me to a thread that discusses the elves in the Alienage that isn't "Loghain sold them into slavery"?  There are a lot of pages in this particular forum, surely you can point me to one?  There is not circular logic, just plain truth.  The Alienage is a cesspool, where, based on the City Elf origin, Nobles can come in and take what they want.  Vaughn surely seems to enjoy his "pleasures".  I can, however, understand your statements if you think elves are less than slaves, and deserve no better, unless you can use that to justify killing someone?  I certainly justify killing Vaughn for his behavior that way.  At any rate, before you claim that Loghain selling the elves isn't the only time people here raise hell about it, perhaps you'd like to document it?

[Lotion Soronarr]

robertthebard wrote...
The only time people care about the plight of the City Elves is when they can say "Loghain sold them as slaves". I'm sure Shianni can really tell the difference, at least they aren't raping her this time, eh? Yes, Loghain is a right bastard, but Cailin, Anora and possibly Maric were no better where the Alienage was concerned.

It was MAric who granted hte elves their freedom IIRC.
Cailan has never actually been to the Alianage and doesn't know how bad it is. As a City elf, he asks you to tell him, and if you tell him how it's really like, he promises he will see to it that it gets better. Talking to Cailan shows he's a compassionate fellow, altouhg rahter brash and too eager to prove himself.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
The only time people care about the plight of the City Elves is when they can say "Loghain sold them as slaves". I'm sure Shianni can really tell the difference, at least they aren't raping her this time, eh? Yes, Loghain is a right bastard, but Cailin, Anora and possibly Maric were no better where the Alienage was concerned.

It was MAric who granted hte elves their freedom IIRC.
Cailan has never actually been to the Alianage and doesn't know how bad it is. As a City elf, he asks you to tell him, and if you tell him how it's really like, he promises he will see to it that it gets better. Talking to Cailan shows he's a compassionate fellow, altouhg rahter brash and too eager to prove himself.

My simple point is that the plight of the Alienage is largely ignored until it can be used as a) leverage against Loghain in the Landsmeet, and here on the forums for justification to kill Loghain.  There are no, "What's up with the Alienage, why are any of the rulers deemed good rulers when they leave that alone" threads.  The only other time they get mentioned, sadly, is when people condemn Anora ruling alone, and her handling of them.  The rest of the time, it's all peachy...The point of my initial post is simply leave that out of reasons to kill Loghain, because it's not a reason, it's an excuse.  The elves are already living as less than slaves before Loghain starts his crap.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eschilde wrote...
My take on this is sort of like: his situation is pretty similar to Sten's, except.. on a bigger scale. Much bigger. Sten slaughtered innocents and, although he seeks redemption, what he feels remorse about is not necessarily the actual killing of the family but rather that he forgot his discipline. The difference between Sten and Loghain is, Loghain left a large portion of hardened soldiers to die, rather than killing innocents with his own hand, and he engaged in distasteful practices in cold logic, but for what he considered to be the greater good. Poisoning Arl Eamon in order to secure power and collaborating with Tevinter slavers to fill the coffers may not have been lawful good decisions, but he does say it in the Landsmeet: war is not something pretty and it does tend to be expensive, especially if you lost a good portion of soldiers and equipment already. Putting imaginary armor on new soldiers and paying them with leprechaun gold doesn't tend to work well.

He justifies his own evil deeds with his prior evil deeds. The losses of so many soldiers are his fault - product of his trechery. It's like a loop of evil - I caused crap with being evil, and now I need to do some more evil to fix the crap I cuased, only I'll be doing more crap wiht my evil...hence I will need to fix that too..

Basically what I am trying to say is, both decision are right if you can justify them to yourself.

Humans can justify anything..and I mena ANYTHING. F*** justifiable.

However, making him a Grey Warden is supposed to take his teeth out, so to speak, or at least he can't work against the Grey Wardens anymore.

But it doesn't really. Anoyne who has a whole slew of influence and fanatical and loay followers will remain dangerous. Plus, he's unstable. Not well in the head. Havinga guy like that watching your back, a guy who betrayed his previous oaths of allegiance - well...not smart.

You should consider at this point that your character does not know that the Grey Warden that strikes the killing blow will die and that Riordan will never kill the Archdemon, or that Alistair will leave the Grey Wardens completely if you choose to recruit Loghain. If you agree with Alistair that becoming a Grey Warden is not a punishment, then the only option is death. If you think he deserves the chance to redeem himself because he was doing what he thought was best for Fereldan, then certainly recruiting him is the better option.

Alistair does make it clear he will not stand by Loghain as a brother. Him leaving or doing something drastic really should come as a surprise.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eschilde wrote...
My take on this is sort of like: his situation is pretty similar to Sten's, except.. on a bigger scale. Much bigger. Sten slaughtered innocents and, although he seeks redemption, what he feels remorse about is not necessarily the actual killing of the family but rather that he forgot his discipline. The difference between Sten and Loghain is, Loghain left a large portion of hardened soldiers to die, rather than killing innocents with his own hand, and he engaged in distasteful practices in cold logic, but for what he considered to be the greater good. Poisoning Arl Eamon in order to secure power and collaborating with Tevinter slavers to fill the coffers may not have been lawful good decisions, but he does say it in the Landsmeet: war is not something pretty and it does tend to be expensive, especially if you lost a good portion of soldiers and equipment already. Putting imaginary armor on new soldiers and paying them with leprechaun gold doesn't tend to work well.

He justifies his own evil deeds with his prior evil deeds. The losses of so many soldiers are his fault - product of his trechery. It's like a loop of evil - I caused crap with being evil, and now I need to do some more evil to fix the crap I cuased, only I'll be doing more crap wiht my evil...hence I will need to fix that too..

Basically what I am trying to say is, both decision are right if you can justify them to yourself.

Humans can justify anything..and I mena ANYTHING. F*** justifiable.

However, making him a Grey Warden is supposed to take his teeth out, so to speak, or at least he can't work against the Grey Wardens anymore.

But it doesn't really. Anoyne who has a whole slew of influence and fanatical and loay followers will remain dangerous. Plus, he's unstable. Not well in the head. Havinga guy like that watching your back, a guy who betrayed his previous oaths of allegiance - well...not smart.

You should consider at this point that your character does not know that the Grey Warden that strikes the killing blow will die and that Riordan will never kill the Archdemon, or that Alistair will leave the Grey Wardens completely if you choose to recruit Loghain. If you agree with Alistair that becoming a Grey Warden is not a punishment, then the only option is death. If you think he deserves the chance to redeem himself because he was doing what he thought was best for Fereldan, then certainly recruiting him is the better option.

Alistair does make it clear he will not stand by Loghain as a brother. Him leaving or doing something drastic really should come as a surprise.

You are absolutely correct, humans can justify anything.  Such as saying that it is the responsibility of a Grey Warden to fight the Blight, to death if need be, regardless of an option that may allow you to end the blight and live in one breath, and then say it is perfectly justifiable for a Grey Warden to leave Ferelden, Blight be damned in another.  After all, you have said this many times, haven't you?

[Darthvegeta8000]

ItsTakenStopAsking wrote...

I can't blame Loghain for some of the actions he took, he wanted a Ferelden that was completely united and independent overall, despite the path he took.

For those who judge him by his actions, one of Flemeths lines ultimately kept me from killing him in the end which was immediately after Alistair says "I don't know, the throne? he's the father of the queen, though i can't see how he'll get away with murder" to which she replies somethig along the lines of "You speak as if he would be the first king to gain his throne that way. Grow up boy!"

It's the human variable of bhelen versus harrowmont, bhelen employs ruthless tactics and leads the dwarves to prosperity, whereas harrowmont is a benevolent ruler who almost takes the dwarves backwards in history and accomplishes little. Would loghain be a better king than Cailan? who knows, but i'm fairly certain he wouldn't be on the front lines to crush his forces morale should he fall.

I'm going to enjoy playing with my 2nd char... the cruel pragmatic one... oh yesss.
I'm glad there is more depth to Loghain than I saw so far. The man is a bastard apparently but no fool and perhaps even justified from his own perception.
The human king came of as non cruel but also foolish and overly idealistic.

[eschilde]

You are absolutely correct, humans can justify anything. Such as saying that it is the responsibility of a Grey Warden to fight the Blight, to death if need be, regardless of an option that may allow you to end the blight and live in one breath, and then say it is perfectly justifiable for a Grey Warden to leave Ferelden, Blight be damned in another. After all, you have said this many times, haven't you?

Certainly, but in this case, since you're the one making the decision, your justification is the only one that matters.

He justifies his own evil deeds with his prior evil deeds. The losses of so many soldiers are his fault - product of his trechery. It's like a loop of evil - I caused crap with being evil, and now I need to do some more evil to fix the crap I cuased, only I'll be doing more crap wiht my evil...hence I will need to fix that too..

Loghain's leaving at Ostagar was not necessarily something evil. That's something that is extremely difficult to prove, but it's very possible he left because there was no way he could have won at Ostagar.