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Let dead characters stay dead


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#301
Silfren

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I know Leliana's "resurrection" irks a lot of people but honestly it never bothered me. Between comic books and cartoons and Gods only know how many movies and books with characters that only SEEMINGLY die, only to show up later, it just isn't something that has ever meant much to me at all. It's not something I really love to see in fiction, since it's such an overdone trope, but it happens so often I guess I'm just inured to it. Between that and the fact that there are tons of documented cases of people believe to be dead who turn out to be alive, it's just not something that really even pings on my radar, the idea that the Warden could have simply THOUGHT that Leliana was dead and left her as such. Morrigan gets more or less the same treatment; the primary difference is that her "death" is more obviously shown to be ambiguous, since we see her fall through the mirror, but don't actually get to stand and watch her breathe her last, as it were.

I do wish that Bioware had handled this a little differently, mind. I always figured that somewhere along the way they had decided to keep the character around and just dropped the ball on this technical detail. Since it is easily explained enough as the Warden simply leaving Leliana for dead while not realizing she was still alive, it's one of the few plot holes that never concerned me overmuch.

Don't really understand why people think she was LITERALLY resurrected from the dead, though, by the Sacred Ashes, rather than never having died in the first place. But then the Ashes themselves were always a more contentious issue for me.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 mai 2013 - 07:19 .


#302
Hurbster

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I just headcanon my Warden booting her head down the side of the mountain anyway. On the one occasion I decided to desecrate the ashes. Think I wanted to unlock berzerker or something.

#303
archangel1996

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That and be consistent about things like Anders and his doppler, for the ones who never read/play The Witcher i'm talking about him being in two places at the same time

#304
Harle Cerulean

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Don't you know, Silfren? Every single person who killed Leliana chopped off her head in a combat killmove, and that killmove, which was totally random, should be respected.

Pfft.

#305
LobselVith8

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Harle Cerulean wrote...

Don't you know, Silfren? Every single person who killed Leliana chopped off her head in a combat killmove, and that killmove, which was totally random, should be respected.

Pfft.


Considering her own codex acknowledged her death, and the developers claim her ressurection will be explained in the future, I'm not sure why you think Leliana didn't die if The Warden killed her.

#306
Twisted Path

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I never actually killed Leiliana in any playthrough of Origins but was there really any reason to bring her back in DA2? It seems like her role in Sebastian's quest could have been filled by some other ninja-nun working for the chantry (I've never actually bought the Sebastian DLC so maybe I'm misremembering what she did from that one time I watched it on Youtube,) and her role at the end of DA2 is to just say some meaninglessly cryptic words.

I kind of wish the Dragon Age writers would move away from comic-book-style continuity where old characters are constantly popping up wherever the story goes and everyone happens to be related or connected to everyone else.

#307
Tinxa

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I wish dead characters coming back with a "I wasn't really dead" and "You haven't really seen me die" is kept to a minimum.

If they want a certain character to return I'd rather they were just unkillable in the previous game. Why have the option to stab them if it's just going to be waved away. I'd rather not have the option at all.

#308
DatOneFanboy

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Anders Resurrection in DA:I

#309
kinderschlager

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KallianaTabris wrote...

Leliana was killed in a room full of Ashes believed to possess excellent healing powers. How hard is this to understand? It's an easy way for writers to preserve a character they want to use for future games. The Maker came to Leliana once, he/she/it probably isn't done with her yet.


unless you...you know....pour dragon blood on the ashes:devil:

#310
kinderschlager

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Sith Grey Warden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They already did do a nod to the players who killed her. Hawke can display bewilderment towards Lelianna being alive. That was in DLC though, so maybe that doesn't count. I'm sure though, that it is not something that the developers will ignore in future instalments.


No, it doesn't count. I didn't preorder, so Leliana just showed up at the end with no explanation.



only DLC i considered worth while in DA2 was origins. 

#311
kinderschlager

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The_FenixV wrote...

kinderschlager wrote...

 wow, they negated one of the most pivotal things a player could do?!?! kill off a character.

EA rears it's ugly "profits first" head again


Or it was Bioware thinking they couldn't replace Anders with another mage, so he was important to them for the plot of DAII.



i gave that bloody bastard a kitten and he repais me by starting a war:pinched:

#312
Rawgrim

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KallianaTabris wrote...

Leliana was killed in a room full of Ashes believed to possess excellent healing powers. How hard is this to understand? It's an easy way for writers to preserve a character they want to use for future games. The Maker came to Leliana once, he/she/it probably isn't done with her yet.


Healing powers. NOT ressurection powers. Correct me if i am wrong here, but I do seem to remember the lore saying that ressurection is impossible in the DA world.

As for the Maker. We don`t know for sure if the maker excists, so... Who knows. But it would be a rather poor case of writing if every death could be retconned by  "The maker fixed them". And why didn`t The Maker ressurect Andraste? For example.

#313
KiwiQuiche

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KENNY4753 wrote...

I want to bring up a point with Leliana.

You never actually see her die when you defile the ashes. You fight her and she falls down (supposedly dead) when you defeat her.
Clip
That doesn't mean that she is definetely dead. There is no cutscene where you chop of their head (Logahin) or where a character dies the way it is that happened to Meredith. We never actually see her die.

That being said, it doesn't throw out your choice. Your choice was not to kill Leliana, your choice was to defile the ashes and killing Leliana was one of the results of that choice. Your choice is still in the game (the ashes being gone)


Actually a few times my Wardens have killed her they decapitated her. Can't really say that was naught but a scratch.

#314
Rawgrim

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Anders can be killed in Awakening, too. Still shows up in DA2. That retcon started a war in Thedas. Way worse than Leliana being ressurected.

#315
Conduit0

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KiwiQuiche wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I want to bring up a point with Leliana.

You never actually see her die when you defile the ashes. You fight her and she falls down (supposedly dead) when you defeat her.
Clip
That doesn't mean that she is definetely dead. There is no cutscene where you chop of their head (Logahin) or where a character dies the way it is that happened to Meredith. We never actually see her die.

That being said, it doesn't throw out your choice. Your choice was not to kill Leliana, your choice was to defile the ashes and killing Leliana was one of the results of that choice. Your choice is still in the game (the ashes being gone)


Actually a few times my Wardens have killed her they decapitated her. Can't really say that was naught but a scratch.

Actually you can, the entire, "but I decapitated her" is an idiotic argument. I can think of three occasions right off the top of my head where the game completely ignores the kill moves, the first fight with Zevran, the fight at the camp site with Ohgren, and the duel with Loghain. In all three cases you can play lumberjack with their neck's and they're alive and in one piece in the very next scene. So if the game its self doesn't even bother to honor the kill moves, then why in bloody hell would you expect the devs to honor them in a future game?

#316
Rawgrim

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Conduit0 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

I want to bring up a point with Leliana.

You never actually see her die when you defile the ashes. You fight her and she falls down (supposedly dead) when you defeat her.
Clip
That doesn't mean that she is definetely dead. There is no cutscene where you chop of their head (Logahin) or where a character dies the way it is that happened to Meredith. We never actually see her die.

That being said, it doesn't throw out your choice. Your choice was not to kill Leliana, your choice was to defile the ashes and killing Leliana was one of the results of that choice. Your choice is still in the game (the ashes being gone)


Actually a few times my Wardens have killed her they decapitated her. Can't really say that was naught but a scratch.

Actually you can, the entire, "but I decapitated her" is an idiotic argument. I can think of three occasions right off the top of my head where the game completely ignores the kill moves, the first fight with Zevran, the fight at the camp site with Ohgren, and the duel with Loghain. In all three cases you can play lumberjack with their neck's and they're alive and in one piece in the very next scene. So if the game its self doesn't even bother to honor the kill moves, then why in bloody hell would you expect the devs to honor them in a future game?


The killmoves IS a poor argument, i agree. i chopped Howe`s head off, and he spoke to me afterwards (head still on his shoulders) before he finaloly died.

#317
kinderschlager

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Rawgrim wrote...

Anders can be killed in Awakening, too. Still shows up in DA2. That retcon started a war in Thedas. Way worse than Leliana being ressurected.



they just don't seem to care about continuity. they like linear games. they say the looked at the elder scrolls, but this gives lie to those words.

if i wanted a linear story line, i would go play medal of honor or CoD

#318
The_FenixV

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Hmm after hearing the conversations of Anders and Justice in Awakening, I can understand the retcon.

#319
Riknas

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A lot of the time, characters coming back to life or turning out to not be very dead is a surprise twist that makes us blink in shock, horror, or cheer with enthusiasm. It's a shame that in an RPG that isn't the case. Don't get me wrong, I get it, but it's still a shame.

So long as it is plausible, and used very, very, sparingly, I think we can find a work around. Way too often these revivals are glazed over and you really have to go out of your way to find the justifications or explanations. If this is going to work, we need to be way more explicit about explaining these things.

If possible, giving us a side quest or some sort of repercussion for having killed (or having tried to kill) this character could probably help mitigate the problem.

Modifié par Riknas, 29 mai 2013 - 06:13 .


#320
Kalas Magnus

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DatOneFanboy wrote...

Anders Resurrection in DA:I

yes

i like it.

biower pls

Modifié par Kalas Magnus, 29 mai 2013 - 07:11 .


#321
KDD-0063

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I think...yes...no....maybe...resurrecting dead characters should not be used to give players fanservice.

Resurrecting someone that the player will gladly kill (again) would be totally cool.
It's kinda weird with Leliana though. Hawke and warden are not the same person.

Anyways, I didn't really feel bad when my good Bhaalspawn met Xzar again or my somewhat evil Bhaalspawn met Drizzt again. After all I have the option to kill them again.

Or maybe it's because resurrection is featured in forgotten realms.

#322
Lotion Soronarr

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Tinxa wrote...

I wish dead characters coming back with a "I wasn't really dead" and "You haven't really seen me die" is kept to a minimum.

If they want a certain character to return I'd rather they were just unkillable in the previous game. Why have the option to stab them if it's just going to be waved away. I'd rather not have the option at all.


What about the player?
How many times does he reach 0 HP and then gets back up during the game?


LobselVith8
Considering her own codex acknowledged her death, and the developers
claim her ressurection will be explained in the future, I'm not sure why
you think Leliana didn't die if The Warden killed her.


To fool the palyer of course. Codex = infalible has been proven to be wrong a long time ago.
I really don't know why you harp so much on it.

#323
Silfren

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Twisted Path wrote...

I never actually killed Leiliana in any playthrough of Origins but was there really any reason to bring her back in DA2? It seems like her role in Sebastian's quest could have been filled by some other ninja-nun working for the chantry (I've never actually bought the Sebastian DLC so maybe I'm misremembering what she did from that one time I watched it on Youtube,) and her role at the end of DA2 is to just say some meaninglessly cryptic words.

I kind of wish the Dragon Age writers would move away from comic-book-style continuity where old characters are constantly popping up wherever the story goes and everyone happens to be related or connected to everyone else.


Well yeah, a new character could have filled Leliana's role easily enough.  But given Leliana's prominence in Asunder, I figured that the writers decided, for whatever reason, to give the role to Leliana instead.  From the start I've thought that they simply decided to change the direction they took her character, and were willing to jettison players' endgames to do it.  I still think this is the case, since Leliana's death was optional, and I'd think that if the writers had planned all along to create a story to explain her death and resurrection, that she would always have come to a bad end in Origins.  That they are saying they will explain her resurrection at some future point sounds more to me like an effort to assauge fan anger over the retcon.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 mai 2013 - 07:25 .


#324
Tinxa

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

I wish dead characters coming back with a "I wasn't really dead" and "You haven't really seen me die" is kept to a minimum.

If they want a certain character to return I'd rather they were just unkillable in the previous game. Why have the option to stab them if it's just going to be waved away. I'd rather not have the option at all.


What about the player?
How many times does he reach 0 HP and then gets back up during the game?


That's just game mechanics, the player never dies in a cutscene. Also at 0 HP the characters are unconscious and not dead.

#325
LobselVith8

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8

Considering her own codex acknowledged her death, and the developers claim her ressurection will be explained in the future, I'm not sure why you think Leliana didn't die if The Warden killed her. 


To fool the palyer of course. Codex = infalible has been proven to be wrong a long time ago.
I really don't know why you harp so much on it. 


You're forgetting the latter part of my sentence, where the developers have addressed that Leliana coming back to life will be explained in the future.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 mai 2013 - 11:42 .