325 réponses à ce sujet

[Androme]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Hey David.

I understand and support what you just wrote, but I'm just wondering a couple of things.

Do you regret giving players ''too much choice'' over the fate of ''future important characters''. What I mean by this is for example if Leliana lives or dies, or giving so many different ''endings'' (or whatever we wanna call it) for Alistair? I mean he can be dead, exiled, Warden, lone King, married King. I can't see how you could ever properly follow up on Alistair when he can be so many different things (if you even ever intended to do anything more with him, that is).
It's hard for simple peons like me to know which characters are important or not and thus which ones I should mention since I don't know which ones you guys are gonna do anything with in the future :@

[andraip]

@op

If you went to a person you despise in real life and went all stabby stabby (with is an option you actually have, although I highly recommend not doing so) and that person does not end up dead as you suspected/hoped will you write a scornful letter to God and ask him to stop retconning your life? Just asking

[EpicBoot2daFace]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Then what's the point of allowing the player to make the choice at all?

[KENNY4753]

I want to bring up a point with Leliana.

You never actually see her die when you defile the ashes. You fight her and she falls down (supposedly dead) when you defeat her.
Clip
That doesn't mean that she is definetely dead. There is no cutscene where you chop of their head (Logahin) or where a character dies the way it is that happened to Meredith. We never actually see her die.

That being said, it doesn't throw out your choice. Your choice was not to kill Leliana, your choice was to defile the ashes and killing Leliana was one of the results of that choice. Your choice is still in the game (the ashes being gone)

Modifié par KENNY4753, 18 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[ledod]

Sejborg wrote...

A new character could just as well have filled the Nightingale role. Turning it into a corny cameo was not necessary.

True dat

[scootermcgaffin]

ledod wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

A new character could just as well have filled the Nightingale role. Turning it into a corny cameo was not necessary.

True dat

True, but they decided they wanted to use Leliana. So they did. And I'm glad for it. The fact that you could end DA:O with everyone (except Morrigan) dead limits, rather than expands the possibilities for storytelling. 

[JWvonGoethe]

scootermcgaffin wrote...

ledod wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

A new character could just as well have filled the Nightingale role. Turning it into a corny cameo was not necessary.

True dat

True, but they decided they wanted to use Leliana. So they did. And I'm glad for it. The fact that you could end DA:O with everyone (except Morrigan) dead limits, rather than expands the possibilities for storytelling. 

Well there are lts of intricacies with Leliana's character which would stop her from being interchangeable with any old Nightingale. For instance, she had an incident with the then future Divine leader of the Chantry during Leliana's Song, she knew the Grey Warden (in most Origins playthroughs) and she claims to have spoken with the Maker, as Andraste did. These character details, and many more besides, could prove to be plot-relevant in DA3:I.

[llandwynwyn]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

I just hope you guys don't resurrect Merrill.

[Foolsfolly]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Then what's the point of allowing the player to make the choice at all?

I'd much rather have the choice in the game and have a sequel undo it than never have the choice at all. DA2 feels too samey with each playthrough. Regardless of why that is I happen to think it's because of imports. DA2's going to be a breeze to import. Even in game Varric tells you Isabela escapes the Qunari if you hand her over. I mean there's only Anders and the siblings to worry about on if they're alive or not and I'd be willing to bet that they won't even make an appreance next game any way.

I'm not unreasonable. I'd much prefer an option to slaughter an entire city and burn it to the ground in Game X and then have a game released 2-4 years later say "Didn't happen." I had fun role-playing the character that burned down the city in that circumstance and now in the next game I'm playing a different character in a different circumstance.

It's always BioWare's world and situations that we're role-playing in. Not ours. We just affect it from time to time.

[ledod]

llandwynwyn wrote...

I just hope you guys don't resurrect Merrill.

Gurl, Wurd. Seriously, wurd.

[AlanC9]

scootermcgaffin wrote...
True, but they decided they wanted to use Leliana. So they did. And I'm glad for it. The fact that you could end DA:O with everyone (except Morrigan) dead limits, rather than expands the possibilities for storytelling. 

Indeed. The ME2 devs did ME3 no favors.

[robertthebard]

Hey, check it out, another topic on BSN that says "Only my choices matter". It's getting kind of cliche...

[jbrand2002uk]

I must seeing things because for a second it looked like fans telling BW what they can and can not do with characters created by BW from what I have read when DAO was being made they didnt expect it to do as well as it did so while a sequel was an option it wasnt a certainty. however DAO did better than expected so DA2 was done and obviously BW decided Leiliana would play a part so she was included.

Sometimes I wonder were fans get this odd notion that BW needs your permission to include a character that you previously killed or to handwave a decision you made in a previous game at the end of the day the franchise and all included content is BW's IP so they can do whatever they like with it.

[NedPepper]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Thank God.  I'm so tired of these threads.  "I killed so and so in my eighth playthrough and THEY MUST BE DEAD!"  Guess what?  Dragon Age without Leliana and Alistar and Morrigan isn't as fun.  And since Gaider replied, how much more emotionally satisfying was Wynne's death in Asunder rather than just killing some character you barely knew because you wanted to side with the Templars?  

The choices should matter...in the game you are playing.  But when you have so many choices that it becomes a convoluted mess, Bioware has to clean it up in a sequel.  Some things have to be cannoized.  You need choices, but you also need a story with interesting characters, lore, and continuity.  Why is that so hard to accept?    

Leliana is alive.  Deal with it.  And I hope they make Alistar the King of Ferelden CANON.  And deal with that too.

This topic is my biggest pet peeve on these boards.  It's why I hate the save import.  Sacrificing story to appease anal rententive fans on choices like killing off main characters seems counter productive.  Every time you play Origins or DA 2,  YOUR HEAD CANON changes.  Every time the story becomes different.  And that's fine.  Per the game.  It doesn't need to be followed up on over and over, game after game.  And how is Bioware supposed to keep up with all of your own decisions on multiple playthroughs of one game and decide which one of your playthroughs is the real one?  

[SeptimusMagistos]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Sometimes I wonder were fans get this odd notion that BW needs your permission to include a character that you previously killed or to handwave a decision you made in a previous game at the end of the day the franchise and all included content is BW's IP so they can do whatever they like with it.

Hey, they're the ones who created a forum to elicit suggestions. My suggestion is to go with what the OP said. I like it when characters I killed in the game stay dead in the sequel. Naturally bioware is free to not do the things I like, but again: they're the ones who asked the question.

And yes, i definitely enjoy the feeling that I have control over how the story turns out. When elements are changed to cut off the choices I made it annoys me - only sightly, but it makes me like the game less than if the choices I made had been acknowledged.

[SpEcIaLRyAn]

Retcon of everyones choices? GO!

[Atakuma]

SpEcIaLRyAn wrote...

Retcon of everyones choices? GO!

 No, retcon one choice that very few people made.

[David Gaider]

JWvonGoethe wrote...
Can we take that as confirmation that a living Leliana in DA2 is, or will be shown to be, entirely consistent with an apparently dead Leliana in DA2?

Absolutely. Her being alive in DA2 even if she was killed in DAO was consistent, if largely unexplained, and the variable will remain present going into DA3. The explanation, once it's offered, doesn't negate the fact that some people are not getting the result they want (ie. Leliana is not there at all), but the choice will be recognized nevertheless and will have reactivity.

As we've said before, some choices carry forward between games and have big effects. Some will have small effects, such as simply being referred to. We will rarely just ignore them entirely unless we have no other choice (or if it's irrelevant in the current context). I resist the exaggeration that not having big reactivity for every choice is the same as having no reactivity for anything. I get that some people seem to think the entire purpose of putting a choice into a game is that so it can carry into the sequel, and that every choice should thus create complete divergence... but that's not really possible (and thus why the vast majority of games simply don't do it).

With regards to how we intend to do the import feature to avoid the GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) bugginess, that's something we'll talk about in the months to come.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[Bfler]

David Gaider wrote...


With regards to how we intend to do the import feature to avoid the GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) bugginess, that's something we'll talk about in the months to come.

With regard to the wrong import of some flags in DA2 and the fact that f.e. Witch Hunt doesn't have a post game save I assume via talk with some NPCs. 

Modifié par Bfler, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:35 .

[JWvonGoethe]

[Edit  post deleted by user]

Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[Emzamination]

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.She died in a fight over religious belief, insignificant to the story.It's amusing to see I'm surrounded by a bunch of calo nords protecting their kill efficiency rep.

[Foolsfolly]

Emzamination wrote...

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.She died in a fight over religious belief, insignificant to the story.It's amusing to see I'm surrounded by a bunch of calo nords protecting their kill efficiency rep.

PC- When I kill people they stay dead.
NPC- But I'm not dead!

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.She died in a fight over religious belief, insignificant to the story.It's amusing to see I'm surrounded by a bunch of calo nords protecting their kill efficiency rep.

Probably because the ressurection of Leliana in Dragon Age II was pointless, and many found her dialogue in Faith to be OOC or come across as anti-mage; she didn't do anything that couldn't have been done by another character. For some people, it's an issue; for fans who were told that their choices would matter, having their choices handwaved over and over again is detrimental to their enjoyment of Dragon Age. 

I don't think the consistent rectons and character ressurections take anyone by surprise. Bioware is showing a tendency to recton events (like the recton of the Dalish and Magi Boons), the fates of certain characters (like Cullen), and even deaths (from the possible demise of Oghren to the potential deaths of Anders and Justice). However, that doesn't mean people will like it, and they are simply voicing their opinion on the issue.

[Darth Death]

Emzamination wrote...

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

[JWvonGoethe]

David Gaider wrote... 

JWvonGoethe wrote...
Can we take that as confirmation that a living Leliana in DA2 is, or will be shown to be, entirely consistent with an apparently dead Leliana in DA2?

Absolutely. Her being alive in DA2 even if she was killed in DAO was consistent, if largely unexplained, and the variable will remain present going into DA3. The explanation, once it's offered, doesn't negate the fact that some people are not getting the result they want (ie. Leliana is not there at all), but the choice will be recognized nevertheless and will have reactivity.

As we've said before, some choices carry forward between games and have big effects. Some will have small effects, such as simply being referred to. We will rarely just ignore them entirely unless we have no other choice (or if it's irrelevant in the current context). I resist the exaggeration that not having big reactivity for every choice is the same as having no reactivity for anything. I get that some people seem to think the entire purpose of putting a choice into a game is that so it can carry into the sequel, and that every choice should thus create complete divergence... but that's not really possible (and thus why the vast majority of games simply don't do it).

With regards to how we intend to do the import feature to avoid the GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) bugginess, that's something we'll talk about in the months to come.

Wow. That pretty much alleviates all my concerns about the DA series. Now I'm definitely going to do a dead Leliana import, just so I can see what happens with it in Inquisition. Much appreciated!

And just for your reply, I'm going to lift my lifelong self-imposed ban on buying DLC and go ahead and purchase the DA2 DLC. Thanks again!