325 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 18 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[David Gaider]

Foolsfolly wrote...
Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her.

There is a bit of exaggeration going on here-- everyone not only killed Leliana in their playthrough, when they killed her they lopped off her head (a part of combat VFX, but evidently this should also be recognized). Failing to recognize this as they expect is the same as not having any reactivity to anything. The point being, I imagine, is that they think that unless you have significant reactivity to everything you shouldn't have any reactivity to anything. I get it, but I thus also don't take offense at it.

[Medhia Nox]

The question remains - what did we gain in Origins by having Leliana "die"?

She could have freaked and left.

Instead of leaving dead characters dead - I would state it another way.

Bioware: Please try to refrain from offering the choice of killing off a character that you want to use in future products.

Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

Instead - it seems odd that you made a point to specifically showcase in DA: 2 - two characters that can die in Origins.

Is it the nature of game design that you can rarely ever plan ahead? (I'm not being sarcastic - it might very well be the case). I will still say though - that even if you can't plan ahead - it would hardly be a tragedy to simply introduce a new character in place of old ones.

[Blessed Silence]

I can understand how some feel though.

I was all excited when DA:O first came out, and played the game like crazy. And hearing about a game import? I was doubly excited.

I did my choices, and though I didn't do anything drastic like killing off people, hearing how choices move from one game to another yet not seeing them is bothersome.

Another poster in a different thread had a good analogy, how they killed the people in Shady Sands in Fallout (who is the town where the NCR will riginate), yet in Fallout 3 the NCR is fine as if what happened in his/her Falloutgame never happened.

Though I would love all my choices to reflect on a game, it is alot of work to make scenarios for each happening. Perhaps down the line when more resources are obtained etc.

Or, be like me, and ponder if I've been indoctrinated and it's all a dream.

[Darth Death]

David Gaider wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her.

There is a bit of exaggeration going on here-- everyone not only killed Leliana in their playthrough, when they killed her they lopped off her head (a part of combat VFX, but evidently this should also be recognized). Failing to recognize this as they expect is the same as not having any reactivity to anything. The point being, I imagine, is that they think that unless you have significant reactivity to everything you shouldn't have any reactivity to anything. I get it, but I thus also don't take offense at it.

Some of us expect consistency within a story, which is sensible. Maybe you should not allow your characters to die at all or mark a character's importance ahead of time to see who could die without affecting future installments.  

Modifié par Darth Death, 18 octobre 2012 - 06:12 .

[JWvonGoethe]

Medhia Nox wrote...

The question remains - what did we gain in Origins by having Leliana "die"?

She could have freaked and left.

Instead of leaving dead characters dead - I would state it another way.

Bioware: Please try to refrain from offering the choice of killing off a character that you want to use in future products.

Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

Instead - it seems odd that you made a point to specifically showcase in DA: 2 - two characters that can die in Origins.
Is it the nature of game design that you can rarely ever plan ahead? (I'm not being sarcastic - it might very well be the case). I will still say though - that even if you can't plan ahead - it would hardly be a tragedy to simply introduce a new character in place of old ones.

David Gaider has just posted on page two of this thread that a dead Leliana save file imported from Origins will be shown to be entirely consistent with her appearance in DA2, and that this will be explained in a future DA title. Personally I'm now hoping that having a resurrected Leliana in Inquisition will be even more interesting plot-wise than having a never-killed Leliana - she could be a Gauis Baltar, Messiah-like figure, with a cult-like following, risen from the dead by the ashes of Andraste!

As for the other character you mention who could die in Origins... I presume you mean Zevran? His appearance in DA2 if you killed him in Origins was a bug and has, I've been told, been fixed by a patch. Still not ideal if you didn't get the patch before you saw him come back to life, but it is surely understandable.

[KENNY4753]

David Gaider wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her.

There is a bit of exaggeration going on here-- everyone not only killed Leliana in their playthrough, when they killed her they lopped off her head (a part of combat VFX, but evidently this should also be recognized). Failing to recognize this as they expect is the same as not having any reactivity to anything. The point being, I imagine, is that they think that unless you have significant reactivity to everything you shouldn't have any reactivity to anything. I get it, but I thus also don't take offense at it.

The funny thing about that is that we never actually see Leliana die. She falls to the ground and that is it. My Warden fell to the ground the same exact way plenty of times in DA:O but he was never really dead.

[saintjimmy43]

I think the fix Gaider's suggesting is good: Leliana is a bit of a core character. Even if you spurned her at every chance you got in your DA:O, there are just as many players who took her for the whole ride, maybe even took her for a different sort of ride (winky face). What's the solution? Put her in regardless of apparent fate. There's such a thing as being "left for dead."

Dialogue making it apparent that Leliana and the warden did not get along like chums is a very effective compromise. As much freedom as we want to have to dictate everything ever, this isn't a sandbox game (even Skyrim has unkillable, "plot-essential" characters). We make decisions with INTENTIONS in these games. I didn't intend for the Geth to die when I destroyed the Reapers, but I'm just a man, even if I'm super-skilled at fighting. Things not lining up exactly with my plans adds a bit of realism.

[NedPepper]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

I really don't see why everyone's up in arms about leliana not staying dead.

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her.

I NEVER killed Lelliana.  And I played a lot.  I didn't even know she could die until people started complaining about Dragon Age 2.  My simple philosophy?  If I'm going to defile the ashes, I probably shouldn't take the religious lady along.  She may not like that.  And I did defile the ashes on a couple playthroughs, although siding with the dragon cult seemed stupid no matter how I was playing a character.  But I did take her along when not defiling the ashes, because she probably would want to see them.  The choice should have probably never been there to begin with, but the development of that game was a LONG time ago, and no one had any idea if the game would be successful or if there would be any import like Mass Effect.

I do remember Wynne left after defiling ashes.  Leliana stayed.  I don't know if approval mattered or not.  I dunno.  Then again, I never killed Zevran either.  Why kill a companion when a lot of time and story have gone into them?  The only companions I killed were in self defense.  Shale.  And Wynne.  And Alistar got sent to the hangman in a couple playthroughs, but if he doesn't die on screen, it's not a death in my book.  His only death was defending my female Warden in an act of chivalry.  A sweet ending, sure,  but I'm not DEMANDING Alistar stay dead and never play a big part in Dragon Age ever again because he made the ultimate sacrifice in one of many playthroughs.  It's entitled, selfish and limiting.

This idea of "I hate this character and want them dead" is weird.  You can hate a character and Biowere lets you do the normal thing.  Fight and argue with them.  Why do people want to kill off fictional characters so badly to begin with, unless it's part of the story?

[Bfler]

nedpepper wrote...

The only companions I killed were in self defense. Shale. And Wynne.

Lol, you killed Wynne? I could never do that. She is too much the adorable grandmother

Modifié par Bfler, 18 octobre 2012 - 06:43 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her. 

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

[NedPepper]

Bfler wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The only companions I killed were in self defense. Shale. And Wynne.

Lol, you killed Wynne? I could never do that. She is too much the adorable grandmother

If you play and side with the Templars, she doesn't give you any choice.  BUT, I figured out a way around it the next playthrough.  Just let Irving die.  Wynne still comes along and I don't have to kill her and the Templars still side with me.  I DIDN'T want to kill her.  That's the point.   I didn't want to kill Shale either.  After Shale turned on me, I never brought her to Anvil again if I planned on siding with Ohgren's angry wife.

[Allan Schumacher]

Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

We read different forums!

[DarkKnightHolmes]

David Gaider wrote...

There is a bit of exaggeration going on here-- everyone not only killed Leliana in their playthrough, when they killed her they lopped off her head.

Good to know I'm not the only one noticing all those over exaggerated posts about how they all chop her head off.

[KENNY4753]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her. 

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

The funny thing about that bolded part is is that nowhere in the game do we see her head get cut off or stabbed through the heart. If there was a cutscene where something like that happened (similiar to Alistair beheading Loghain) I would agree that she should remain dead, but we don't see that and there is no proof in DA:O that we really killed her. She just falls down (apperently) dead. 

[KENNY4753]

nedpepper wrote...

Bfler wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The only companions I killed were in self defense. Shale. And Wynne.

Lol, you killed Wynne? I could never do that. She is too much the adorable grandmother

If you play and side with the Templars, she doesn't give you any choice.  BUT, I figured out a way around it the next playthrough.  Just let Irving die.  Wynne still comes along and I don't have to kill her and the Templars still side with me.  I DIDN'T want to kill her.  That's the point.   I didn't want to kill Shale either.  After Shale turned on me, I never brought her to Anvil again if I planned on siding with Ohgren's angry wife.

I sided with the Templars once and still kept Wynne. You have to let Uldrid kill Irving in the Harrowing Chamber during the battle and you automatically side with the Templars. Wynne is still free to walk out of the Circle and join you. Just never telly Wynne you are going to side with the Templars.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

KENNY4753 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Bfler wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The only companions I killed were in self defense. Shale. And Wynne.

Lol, you killed Wynne? I could never do that. She is too much the adorable grandmother

If you play and side with the Templars, she doesn't give you any choice.  BUT, I figured out a way around it the next playthrough.  Just let Irving die.  Wynne still comes along and I don't have to kill her and the Templars still side with me.  I DIDN'T want to kill her.  That's the point.   I didn't want to kill Shale either.  After Shale turned on me, I never brought her to Anvil again if I planned on siding with Ohgren's angry wife.

I sided with the Templars once and still kept Wynne. You have to let Uldrid kill Irving in the Harrowing Chamber during the battle and you automatically side with the Templars. Wynne is still free to walk out of the Circle and join you. Just never telly Wynne you are going to side with the Templars.

You can save Irving and still side with the templars.

[KENNY4753]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

Bfler wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

The only companions I killed were in self defense. Shale. And Wynne.

Lol, you killed Wynne? I could never do that. She is too much the adorable grandmother

If you play and side with the Templars, she doesn't give you any choice.  BUT, I figured out a way around it the next playthrough.  Just let Irving die.  Wynne still comes along and I don't have to kill her and the Templars still side with me.  I DIDN'T want to kill her.  That's the point.   I didn't want to kill Shale either.  After Shale turned on me, I never brought her to Anvil again if I planned on siding with Ohgren's angry wife.

I sided with the Templars once and still kept Wynne. You have to let Uldrid kill Irving in the Harrowing Chamber during the battle and you automatically side with the Templars. Wynne is still free to walk out of the Circle and join you. Just never telly Wynne you are going to side with the Templars.

You can save Irving and still side with the templars.

Yeah but in doing so Irving dies anyway. If not in the battle he dies when he turns himself over to Gregoir

[Foolsfolly]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Maybe some people don't like the idea of inconsistency & retcons?  

Oh, come on. How many people killed Leliana? This isn't like Loghain's walking around trying to usurp Alistair even in games where Alistair beheaded Loghain in front of everyone. In fact of all the countless Origins runs I've done she died once with me. My first time... I never walked into that damn tavern and didn't recruit her. 

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

Look to the absolute best of my knowledge there are two ways Leliana dies.

1- Leave her in Lothering.
2- Defile the Sacred Ashes in front of her.

1 is easy to explain. She (like Sten) escaped the Blight without the Warden's help.
2 isn't much harder to explain away. We know thanks to Leliana's Song that she survived a murder knife to the stomach and whatever terrors the guards could do to her. She walked away from that. So perhaps its possible she crawled her self out of that hole, healed herself up and left for Orlais.

Or if you prefer the more supernatural we have mystical curative ashes/energy right next to her and/or the Maker could have directly intervened.

Instead of complaining that a character you fought didn't die (Teagan also fights you and seems no worse for the wear) why not look at this as a "How did she survive?" And her cameos weren't so detailed as to explain how she survived.

But seriously, how many killed her? It's really not even a choice. You're going to side with Kolgrim? That loud mouth nut? I mean if you're role-playing a character like the Joker who just enjoys destruction sure.. but rationally... you'll agree with Kolgrim?

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana?

That certainly plays a factor. We're not talking about over-ruling a major plot-relevant decision like killing Loghain or dying against the Archdemon. She's a non-essential party membr that a fair number of people didn't even meet during their own playthrough.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:09 .

[LobselVith8]

KENNY4753 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

The funny thing about that bolded part is is that nowhere in the game do we see her head get cut off or stabbed through the heart. If there was a cutscene where something like that happened (similiar to Alistair beheading Loghain) I would agree that she should remain dead, but we don't see that and there is no proof in DA:O that we really killed her. She just falls down (apperently) dead. 

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

And the game acknowledges that she was killed. The decision is recognized.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:12 .

[Darth Death]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

And the game acknowledges that she was killed. The decision is recognized.

And that should put an end to this debate. A retcon is a retcon. 

Modifié par Darth Death, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:16 .

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

1- Leave her in Lothering.
2- Defile the Sacred Ashes in front of her.

1 is easy to explain. She (like Sten) escaped the Blight without the Warden's help.
2 isn't much harder to explain away. We know thanks to Leliana's Song that she survived a murder knife to the stomach and whatever terrors the guards could do to her. She walked away from that. So perhaps its possible she crawled her self out of that hole, healed herself up and left for Orlais.

Or if you prefer the more supernatural we have mystical curative ashes/energy right next to her and/or the Maker could have directly intervened.

Except Leliana was killed. This isn't about what recton can be used to explain how she survived, it's about the fact that for those players who killed her, this outcome was changed to bring her back to life. As ejoslin explained in another thread:

ejoslin wrote...

Well, the flag is called "AUTOSS_LEL_FIGHTS_PLAYER_OVER_URN" and it's a trigger for the fight (obviously) but there is a flag that does indicate that Leliana was killed.  Yes, it's in the notes that the warden kills Leliana.  

It's really nothing I care about at this point.  It's a retcon, but the minute they said that the epilogues were just heresay and rumor, it took out a lot of the power of the story for me.  So there are retcons -- so what?  I still love the game, and hopefully I'll love DA3 as well.

I think she has a good point: these rectons lessen the story for some players.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Instead of complaining that a character you fought didn't die (Teagan also fights you and seems no worse for the wear) why not look at this as a "How did she survive?" And her cameos weren't so detailed as to explain how she survived.

But seriously, how many killed her? It's really not even a choice. You're going to side with Kolgrim? That loud mouth nut? I mean if you're role-playing a character like the Joker who just enjoys destruction sure.. but rationally... you'll agree with Kolgrim?

Which has absolutely nothing to do with why people dislike the rectons that have transpired in Dragon Age since Origins.

[Foolsfolly]

Darth Death wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

And the game acknowledges that she was killed. The decision is recognized.

And that should put an end to this debate. A retcon is a retcon. 

This isn't a book or a television show though. There are multitudes of different universes and in many she never died and thus isn't a retcon. At best it's a handwave for those minority of universes where Leliana was brought to the Sacred Ashes and fought the Warden.