325 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

Except Leliana was killed. This isn't about what recton can be used to explain how she survived, it's about the fact that for those players who killed her, this outcome was changed to bring her back to life. As ejoslin explained in another thread:

But what if she was killed and brought back to life by the Maker or some other magical force? Then it's not a retcon it's a handwave. Or if you want to be a little more logical about it it's story progression.

The thing is just because Leliana appeared twice in DLC for DA2 doesn't mean she didn't die either. Hawke, Isabela, and Anders have no knowledge of what happened up in Haven and as such the character's knowledge is much less than the player's knowledge and we don't have answers yet.

We may get answers. Hell Wynne died once and a spirit brought her back to life.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:30 .

[KENNY4753]

LobselVith8 wrote...

KENNY4753 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana? I don't agree. As for conflating game mechanics with the narrative, the point comes down to the fact that The Warden killed Leliana (if she tried to murder him). If The Warden carries a sword, he'd likely kill her with it. Cutting off her head, stabbing her through the heart, or a number of other ways. I'd imagine a mage would use magic, perhaps burning her with fire. The fact that this outcome has been changed (along with a number of other outcomes, boons, and deaths that have been rectonned) is something that some people dislike.

The funny thing about that bolded part is is that nowhere in the game do we see her head get cut off or stabbed through the heart. If there was a cutscene where something like that happened (similiar to Alistair beheading Loghain) I would agree that she should remain dead, but we don't see that and there is no proof in DA:O that we really killed her. She just falls down (apperently) dead. 

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

The codex could say that because that is what the Warden believes happened. Similiar to the Citadel Codex entry in ME. It is based on what was known at the time. When we received the codex entry we didn't know the Reapers/Catalyst/whatever built it so the codex doesn't say the Reapers built it.

At the time we believe Leliana is dead so that is what the codex reads. Think of it like a journal and the Warden writes in there about Leliana dying after defiling the ashes. That is what the Warden believes happened but it isn't truely fact.

and technically she did just fall down after trying to kill the Warden. Sure the codex changes to what we believe happened but that's about it. Like I said no real proof she died

Modifié par KENNY4753, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:45 .

[Darth Death]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

And the game acknowledges that she was killed. The decision is recognized.

And that should put an end to this debate. A retcon is a retcon. 

This isn't a book or a television show though. There are multitudes of different universes and in many she never died and thus isn't a retcon. At best it's a handwave for those minority of universes where Leliana was brought to the Sacred Ashes and fought the Warden.

It doesn't have to be a tv show or a book for retcons to exist. It may be conventional in those fields, but not exclusive. Mass Effect, as far as characters dying are concerned, was kept under the power of consistency. If Miranda died during the SM she didn't randomly appear in ME3. Liara is a perfect example on what BioWare did right. BioWare acknowledged her to be important ahead of time, and as a result, she couldn't die until the end of ME3.    

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So the choice shouldn't matter if many people didn't kill Leliana?

That certainly plays a factor. We're not talking about over-ruling a major plot-relevant decision like killing Loghain or dying against the Archdemon. She's a non-essential party membr that a fair number of people didn't even meet during their own playthrough.

Leliana's death isn't the only thing that was rectonned. I don't think the continual rectons in a series that was supposed to honor our previous choices is a good thing. Furthermore, Leliana's ressurection in Dragon Age II was pointless.

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Leliana was killed, cutscene or no cutscene. It's not as though she simply fell down after trying to murder The Warden, and that was it. Leliana's codex entry addresses that she was killed by The Warden, "When The Warden corrupted and destroyed the Sacred Ashes of Andraste, Leliana drew her weapon and was killed alongside the guardian." Even the plot flag for Origins address Leliana was killed if she fought The Warden at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. 

And the game acknowledges that she was killed. The decision is recognized. 

And it was rectonned in Dragon Age II. Like I said before, Dragon Age has rectonned a number of events (like the recton of the Dalish and Magi Boons), the fates of specific characters (like Cullen), and even the demise of certain characters (from the possible demise of Oghren to the potential deaths of Anders and Justice). I think it lessens the narrative when our choices don't seem to matter.

[Foolsfolly]

Darth Death wrote...

It doesn't have to be a tv show or a book for retcons to exist. It may be conventional in those fields, but not exclusive. Mass Effect, as far as characters dying are concerned, was kept under the power of consistency. If Miranda died during the SM she didn't randomly appear in ME3. Liara is a perfect example on what BioWare did right. BioWare acknowledged her to be important ahead of time, and as a result, she couldn't die until the end of ME3.    

It can't be a retcon unless it affects all. Its a handwave to some but fits in lore for most. And since a small cutscene and two conversations where we played a character with no prior knowledge to what happened at the Ashes doesn't mean she didn't die.

How could Hawke know about the fight to ask?

Perhaps she walked away. Perhaps a spirit saved her. Perhaps the Maker saved her. Regardless it isn't a retcon yet. Yes it's mysterious. Yes, I'd have preferred an answer straight up (although you have to wonder who the hell would have known about the death to ask. And it'd be a **** to think of a way to organically have it come up in conversation with her otherwise.)

But it's only a retcon if it says the fight never happened.

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Leliana was killed. This isn't about what recton can be used to explain how she survived, it's about the fact that for those players who killed her, this outcome was changed to bring her back to life. As ejoslin explained in another thread: 

But what if she was killed and brought back to life by the Maker or some other magical force? Then it's not a retcon it's a handwave. Or if you want to be a little more logical about it it's story progression.

Leliana was killed in that specific playthrough. Now she's alive. The fact that the previous narrative was changed makes it a recton. It's retroactive continuity.

Foolsfolly wrote...

The thing is just because Leliana appeared twice in DLC for DA2 doesn't mean she didn't die either. Hawke, Isabela, and Anders have no knowledge of what happened up in Haven and as such the character's knowledge is much less than the player's knowledge and we don't have answers yet.

We may get answers. Hell Wynne died once and a spirit brought her back to life.

I simply don't see the point to bringing Leliana back from the dead when her role could have been easily filled by a new character; she didn't do anything that demanded that Leliana had to be brought back for all players. She isn't the only character who is brought back from the dead, either. I don't see the point in turning Dragon Age into a comic book universe where death is meaningless.

[marshalleck]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

We read different forums!

Boo, I wanted to say that.

[thats1evildude]

A retcon refers more to an alteration of previously-established lore or plot events in the setting. In the webcomic Erfworld, twolls were briefly listed as having the ability of "regeneration". The author realized later that was an error and changed it to "crafting." That was a retcon.

The game establishes that Leliana died fighting the Warden. However, it was never stated what happened to her after the battle. Her death and resurrection were seperate events, with the latter occuring "off-camera," and so no retcon took place.

Incidentally, why do people treat "retcon" like a dirty word? Authors change their minds sometimes.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:49 .

[Apollo Starflare]

From the moment I saw that she had returned I instantly just created a headcanon extra epilogue slide for playthroughs that had Leliana killed during the Ashes quest. The VFX thing is unfortunate, but it's actually quite the twist that someone you thought you had gotten rid off managed to survive in potentially mysterious circumstances.

Now I had thought that this would be something that was never touched on in-game, but did I read correctly earlier in this thread that if you 'killed' Leliana in DAO it will be reflected in some dialogue in DA3? If so that is pretty awesome.

Sometimes you try to kill someone and they just. Won't. Die. Nothing new there guys. Maybe you'll get another shot at your least favourite red head in DA3.

[Darth Death]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

It doesn't have to be a tv show or a book for retcons to exist. It may be conventional in those fields, but not exclusive. Mass Effect, as far as characters dying are concerned, was kept under the power of consistency. If Miranda died during the SM she didn't randomly appear in ME3. Liara is a perfect example on what BioWare did right. BioWare acknowledged her to be important ahead of time, and as a result, she couldn't die until the end of ME3.    

It can't be a retcon unless it affects all. Its a handwave to some but fits in lore for most. And since a small cutscene and two conversations where we played a character with no prior knowledge to what happened at the Ashes doesn't mean she didn't die.

How could Hawke know about the fight to ask?

Perhaps she walked away. Perhaps a spirit saved her. Perhaps the Maker saved her. Regardless it isn't a retcon yet. Yes it's mysterious. Yes, I'd have preferred an answer straight up (although you have to wonder who the hell would have known about the death to ask. And it'd be a **** to think of a way to organically have it come up in conversation with her otherwise.)

But it's only a retcon if it says the fight never happened.

I'll take your word for it, but I agree (with the bold) a evident answer is always welcomed.

Modifié par Darth Death, 18 octobre 2012 - 07:58 .

[Iecerint]

If Bioware goes with a retcon, I'd like them to make this clear up-front. It's more unsettling for the universe to change by Leliana suddenly showing up than for Leliana to show up in the intro with a handwave, for example.

[marshalleck]

Apollo Starflare wrote...
Sometimes you try to kill someone and they just. Won't. Die. Nothing new there guys.

Yeah I've had that dream before, it's sooooo frustrating.

[Rune-Chan]

thats1evildude wrote...


Incidentally, why do people treat "retcon" like a dirty word? Authors change their minds sometimes.

Most authors don't proclaim far and wide that the consumer can make choices that affect outcomes.

When a developer tells you that you can "shape the world" and that your decisions will change the story, it is not unreasonable to expect them to actually happen and matter.

If they didn't want Leliana dead, they could have easily made it so she didn't actually die, or seem to. She could have been trapped, or knocked out, or went missing.

If they have a vision for certain characters, and do not want them to die or certain events to affect them, they can easily make it so we can't kill them off, just like Liara in Mass Effect. They decided she needed to live, so they made it so she could not die.

The issue is basically giving us choices then ignoring them, or making the choices have the same outcome as those who made a different one.

Why bother giving us it in the first place?

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:07 .

[Terrorize69]

Why are people so surprised? Plot armor has been around for years.

Modifié par Terrorize69, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:15 .

[KENNY4753]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Why are people so surprised? Plot armor has been around fir years.

Exactly. Look back to ME1. They had plot armor and plot bullets

[marshalleck]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Why are people so surprised? Plot armor has been around fir years.

Plot armor usually protects characters from death in the first place. For example: Liara in Mass Effect.

Modifié par marshalleck, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[Terrorize69]

KENNY4753 wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Why are people so surprised? Plot armor has been around fir years.

Exactly. Look back to ME1. They had plot armor and plot bullets

Goes even further back lol, KoToR. Pick the sith ending, doesn't carry on in KoToR2. MGS1 Meryl dies then gets married in MGS4

Modifié par Terrorize69, 18 octobre 2012 - 08:19 .

[Ryzaki]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

We read different forums!

This.

Honestly I rather be able to be able to kill a character and have them alive in a later installement than never be able to kill them at all.

Honestly I rather not have save game carryovers for any game that's not a direct sequel with the same characters. Thus no retcons. There's a canon story and what happened in my game wasn't it.

[Foolsfolly]

Machines Are Us wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...


Incidentally, why do people treat "retcon" like a dirty word? Authors change their minds sometimes.

Most authors don't proclaim far and wide that the consumer can make choices that affect outcomes.

When a developer tells you that you can "shape the world" and that your decisions will change the story, it is not unreasonable to expect them to actually happen and matter.

If they didn't want Leliana dead, they could have easily made it so she didn't actually die, or seem to. She could have been trapped, or knocked out, or went missing.

If they have a vision for certain characters, and do not want them to die or certain events to affect them, they can easily make it so we can't kill them off, just like Liara in Mass Effect. They decided she needed to live, so they made it so she could not die.

The issue is basically giving us choices then ignoring them, or making the choices have the same outcome as those who made a different one.

Why bother giving us it in the first place?

In Oblivion you have the choice to stop the Obliviion Crisis and help Martin. Nothing forces you to do it. Naturally in Skyrim it says you stopped the Obvlivion Crisis regardless of wheter you did or didn't. The best Elder Scroll example is Daggerfall which had multiple endings. In Morrowind you find out all those endings happened. Including the endings where Mannicmaro became a god and the ending where he was killed. All happened and it was called the Warp in the West. No one in-game could figure out how or why it happened. All the sudden multiple unheard of nations rose and contradictory events happened despite their paradox-ridden explainations.

In Fallout 2 you could destroy Shady Sands in New Vegas Shady Sands is alive and well and the NCR is still expanding east.

In the KOTOR MMO Revan was a Light Sider Male who romanced Bastila.

Does all this make replaying those games as anything else less enjoyable?

[Cultist]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

Let's see:
Tallis  13 pages, on DA3 section alone, in DA2 part was far longer thread.
Leliana - 31 page.
Only ones I am familiar with. Maybe because all other companions could be killed or shallow and forgettable. If you see the pattern - both characters got plot armor. I suppose if character is protected from killing or gets retconned then it is more appealing to do so for players, like finishing a job.

[Foolsfolly]

Cultist wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...
Nobody complains that a specific character can't be killed.

Let's see:
Tallis  13 pages, on DA3 section alone, in DA2 part was far longer thread.
Leliana - 31 page.
Only ones I am familiar with. Maybe because all other companions could be killed or shallow and forgettable. If you see the pattern - both characters got plot armor. I suppose if character is protected from killing or gets retconned then it is more appealing to do so for players, like finishing a job.

I know there were a few Morrigan complaints. And Sebstian got a few "I want to kill him"s too.

[marshalleck]

There were more than a few Morrigan complaints. There were so many tears flowing on the forum Bioware felt compelled to let players stab her in the stomach in the Witch Hunt DLC.

[Cultist]

Foolsfolly wrote...
In Fallout 2 you could destroy Shady Sands in New Vegas Shady Sands is alive and well and the NCR is still expanding east.
In the KOTOR MMO Revan was a Light Sider Male who romanced Bastila.
Does all this make replaying those games as anything else less enjoyable?

Can you remind me which of said games supported decision importing?

[Foolsfolly]

Cultist wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
In Fallout 2 you could destroy Shady Sands in New Vegas Shady Sands is alive and well and the NCR is still expanding east.
In the KOTOR MMO Revan was a Light Sider Male who romanced Bastila.
Does all this make replaying those games as anything else less enjoyable?

Can you remind me which of said games supported decision importing?

None of them.

The question asked was what's the point of choices if they later don't matter. They're still valid and fun choices in those games.

And back on topic we still don't know if Leliana died or not.