325 réponses à ce sujet

[Cultist]

Foolsfolly wrote...
The question asked was what's the point of choices if they later don't matter. They're still valid and fun choices in those games.

Because they promised them and made it a part of ad campaign.

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Mr. Gaider,

Big fan of the World  that you've created for us.

Ive been logging onto BSN for quite sometime (about 3 yrs maybe) and Clicking your Profile (without posting in threads) just to find the next nugget of information on DA., and viewed your responses and opinions. And after spending a couple years of doing this I beleive ive read enough of your statments to make a informed assesment on how you respond to the most loyal of your fan base. Particularly, on threads like this. I am under the impression that regardless of the choices you've given us to make, You will not make any concerted effort to do anything other then what you feel is best for the story.

Now, I understand, Youve created this world and it is perfectly within your rights do whatever you feel, and you cant please everyone, and you feel we complain about things we only think we want.

This is simply a matter of customer service, all we are asking for is the game to reflect our choices, if Leiliana's dead...have a girl named Jessica show up instead. Zevran Killed? Have an elf named Michael show up.

Analogy:

If i am at a drive thru window and order a burger with no tomatoes. and that order is reflected on the screen saying "no tomatoes"  When I pull up to get my burger and there tomatoes on it im gonna be pissed off. Even more so if the person on who made my burger tells me "Oh, I feel the burger looks better with tomatoes on it, it makes it taste better as well, try it"... I dont want friggin tomatoes on my burger!!!


I am also under the impression that you have a hard time letting certain character's youve created go and you seem to be obsessed with continuing their stories, which is why some people are having a hard time with the comic's...not that the story is bad, but because you basically told certain players that certain descions they've made in game are irrelavant to how you feel the best playthrough should be. Now, Ive heard you state "this is a version of what might have happend" and I agree, It's a version...but you do understand that this Is THEE version because you write the Golden rules as the creator.  In summary, Thedas was originally  presented to us as a world that we have the ability to effect by our descions. Bringing certain characters back into a world where each of us has made a choice on wether that character lives or dies, makes those choices irrelavant and so we feel slighted. Considering we were orignally told our choices matter, and Now we understand that only choices that you feel matter are the choices that matter. So, watever, good game still, just dont sugar code it anymore...the story will be what it is the same characters for everyone.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 18 octobre 2012 - 09:01 .

[Foolsfolly]

Cultist wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
The question asked was what's the point of choices if they later don't matter. They're still valid and fun choices in those games.

Because they promised them and made it a part of ad campaign.

No they didn't. They did for Mass Effect. I didn't know there was an import option until like a month or so before its release. And I believe that was either here or the wikia. The ad campaign was all about fighting like a Spartan and thinking like a general... and the Arishok fighting Hawke who used blood magic and flaming fists.

And there was an army of Morrigans at one point.... and Isabela was like white white.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 18 octobre 2012 - 09:05 .

[Rawgrim]

David Gaider wrote...

I feel this point needs to be made: if there was an option to kill off a character or a companion, I feel it is best that said companion 'stay' dead and not be written back.

The point has been made-- numerous times. I understand there are some folks who fret a great deal when something they've done (such as killing a character) results in the decision being hand-waved... no matter how it's explained (or is yet to be explained). Understanding that, it is still going to happen from time to time when we deem it necessary.

Not to be rude, or anything. But doesn`t this mean that the choices we make in previous games counts for nothing?If Bioware feels this or that choice was wrong, it will get retconned. Eventually this will make the Savegame import pointless, in a way?

[thats1evildude]

FreshIstay wrote...

Analogy:

If i am at a drive thru window and order a burger with no tomatoes. and that order is reflected on the screen saying "no tomatoes"  When I pull up to get my burger and there tomatoes on it im gonna be pissed off. Even more so if the person on who made my burger tells me "Oh, I feel the burger looks better with tomatoes on it, it makes it taste better as well, try it"... I dont want friggin tomatoes on my burger!!!  

There's quite a gulf between a video game and fast food. Your ability to alter a food order is pretty limited; for example, you can't demand your burger to be made from human flesh or to swap out your soft drink with fresh chicken blood or the server's own urine. The choice whether or not to include tomatoes on your burger is therefore pretty important (in this context anyway) and you're in your rights to get angry if they ignore your request.

The decision to kill Leliana is one minor decision that has no bearing on the overall plot. And it IS recognized — although apparently not to your satisfaction — along with many other decisions that the game follows to the letter. Alistair is either a drunk or a king if you made him one, for example.

A more apt analogy here would be a customer who bought $70 worth of french fries and demands his money back because one of his french fries is burnt at one end. Not all the fries, mind you, just one.

So please, shut up, you over-privileged, self-entitled ****. It's one ****ing french fry out of dozens.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .

[andocrack]

Lazarus Project = Good way to bring character back to life.
How Leliana & Anders did it = not so much.

DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice. A little in the "space magic" variety for me, but I can live with that. The plan appears to be that they address it and give it a little more depth, so hopefully it gets a nice touch.

[Rawgrim]

Its not the end of the world that Leliana is alive, but it make me wonder how much point it is in spending alot of time getting a "perfect" import. if things could get retconned at any time.

[Foolsfolly]

Lazarus Project = Good way to bring character back to life.

...as a huge huge fan of ME2... no... I hated that opening so much...

[SeptimusMagistos]

andocrack wrote...
 A little in the "space magic" variety for me, but I can live with that.

Technically it's just regular magic. Thedas rocket program is still getting off the ground.

[jackofalltrades456]

As I've said many times, as much as I loved Leliana, she was kind of forced back into the the storyline with these retcons and handwaves. They basically came out and told us that our choices would only matter unless they changed their minds about it, and everything that happened at the end of Dragon Age: Origins was only a "rumor"

I do agree that David Gaider seems to have trouble letting go of certain characters and its been getting harder and harder for him to justify their return.  I wouldn't even be surprised at this point if Alistair suddenly returned as King of Ferelden even if he died in DAO or remained in the Wardens.

Modifié par jackofalltrades456, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

andocrack wrote...
 A little in the "space magic" variety for me, but I can live with that.

Technically it's just regular magic. Thedas rocket program is still getting off the ground.

Not until they hire Sandal anyway. Not Enchantment is quite the propellent... not so big on stable though...

[Fast Jimmy]

Foolsfolly wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

andocrack wrote...
 A little in the "space magic" variety for me, but I can live with that.

Technically it's just regular magic. Thedas rocket program is still getting off the ground.

Not until they hire Sandal anyway. Not Enchantment is quite the propellent... not so big on stable though...

I have nothing to add but a +1.

[AlexanderCousland]

thats1evildude wrote...

There's quite a gulf between a video game and fast food. Your ability to alter a food order is pretty limited; for example, you can't demand your burger to be made from human flesh or to swap out your soft drink with fresh chicken blood or the server's own urine. The choice whether or not to include tomatoes on your burger is therefore pretty important (in this context anyway) and you're in your rights to get angry if they ignore your request.

The decision to kill Leliana is one minor decision that has no bearing on the overall plot. And it IS recognized — although apparently not to your satisfaction — along with many other decisions that the game follows to the letter. Alistair is either a drunk or a king if you made him one, for example.

A more apt analogy here would be a customer who bought $70 worth of french fries and demands his money back because one of his french fries is burnt at one end. Not all the fries, mind you, just one.

So please, shut up, you over-privileged, self-entitled ****. It's one ****ing french fry out of dozens.

 Listen.  I didnt even kill leliana in any of my playthroughs. I agree the decision to kill Leliana is minor this is why I compared it to tomatoes on a Hamburger...a rather minor choice. So what Im saying is, When you preapared the Hamburger, why couldnt you just take the tomatoes off like I asked for, a rather simple request right? yes. Instead I payed for a hamburger I was expecting to be delivered with no tomatoes, only to learn this is not the case. This demands my emotional reaction be angry or dissapointed right? yes. 
Im not asking for my money back  I liked DA2 (so much i traded it in and bought it again at full price)...even though there were tomatoes on my burger I didnt ask for, and an order of nuggets I didnt receive at all. 

Also..throwing insults about is a rather immature thing to do.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Josielyn]

Boy, after reading this thread I am very glad I did not kill any companions or import any saves on either Awakening or DAII. I won't do it for DAIII either. I will play it from ground zero. That way I won't be upset by any "Miracles". Thy will be done, Bioware.

[David Gaider]

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it. I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well, again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can, to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall leave it at that.

[deuce985]

I believe they have a supernatural explanation for Leliana's revival anyway. Maybe something to do with the Maker...

The only companion I can say I enjoyed killing in DA is Fenris.

Modifié par deuce985, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:05 .

[Il Divo]

David Gaider wrote...

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it. I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well, again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can, to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall leave it at that.

True, but you guys would be saving yourselves a great number of headaches if these decisions were planned out better. ME2-ME3 for example demonstrated the problems with making your entire cast killable. And based on Leliana's role in DA2, it's not even clear why she was a necessary element of the story.

If you're going to keep up with the import feature, which you have said would be the case, it would be a good idea to set more realistic goals for what decisions a player may or may not make within the confines of each game. Importing so far has been composed of cameos for side characters and weak explanations for why decision X was completely ignored (Ex: The Rachni).

[Archereon]

Il Divo wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This
is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations
of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it.
I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal
expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana
is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well,
again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we
cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru
burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can,
to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall
leave it at that.

True, but you guys would be saving
yourselves a great number of headaches if these decisions were planned
out better. ME2-ME3 for example demonstrated the problems with making
your entire cast killable. And based on Leliana's role in DA2, it's not
even clear why she was a necessary element of the story.

If
you're going to keep up with the import feature, which you have said
would be the case, it would be a good idea to set more realistic goals
for what decisions a player may or may not make within the confines of
each game. Importing so far has been composed of cameos for side
characters and weak explanations for why decision X was completely
ignored (Ex: The Rachni).

That's not the writing staff's fault as much as it is the fact that it would be prohibitively expensive to properly address the consequences of any major decision, both in terms of writing and development time and the animation/voice acting budget. The best that can be done is tying up a particular title's potential branches in such a way that all decisions which would have a significant impact on the plot have the same net outcome, which is essentially what they're doing now.

Modifié par Archereon, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:22 .

[Blastback]

Il Divo wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it. I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well, again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can, to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall leave it at that.

True, but you guys would be saving yourselves a great number of headaches if these decisions were planned out better. ME2-ME3 for example demonstrated the problems with making your entire cast killable. And based on Leliana's role in DA2, it's not even clear why she was a necessary element of the story.

If you're going to keep up with the import feature, which you have said would be the case, it would be a good idea to set more realistic goals for what decisions a player may or may not make within the confines of each game. Importing so far has been composed of cameos for side characters and weak explanations for why decision X was completely ignored (Ex: The Rachni).

Something else, if your going to do something that seems to contradict a player's action like bringing Leliana from the dead, it should probably be made obvious from the get go why having her come back to life was important for the story.  I belive you when you say that having her come back was nessecary for the overall story of Thedas, but I don't see how it was nessecary in DA2. 

[KiwiQuiche]

Another thing that bothered me about Leliana's appearence in DA2- and not just in the fact she stitched her decapitated head back on with some imports- is that stupid line "It's in the Maker's hands now."

I really wanted to punch her when she said that. In DAO you can harden her so she's not so gungho about the Maker. In fact, many of her lines switch, especially in romance, and she'll completely drop it about the 'faith' and the 'Maker' in many parts. Which I did find a relief. Her going all back to "Maker is doing everything so lets just sit around lol" is pretty OOC if you have a Hardened Leliana in import. :/

[AlexanderCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it. I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well, again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can, to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall leave it at that.

Im not saying that you could make a whole game like a fast food joint could make a burger.

To me,

Game = Burger


The Option to kill a character = Choice of toppings

I dont think the game should be customized to my specific needs nor do I expect it to be.  I didnt even kill leliana or anyone really lol...but im defending the fact that the choice was there to be made, if the reasons for them still being alive have been explained in DA2 someone please tell me where, any reason is good enough for me Just as long as there is a reason. otherwise Im under the impression certain players killed certain companions and they showed up alive.

Mr. Gaider, If your obsessed with any character at all, it's Alistair, you've made that abundantly clear.
and thats fine you created the world, we are just the players man, we are gonna take whatever you give us...It's not like we have a choice.

[Allan Schumacher]

As a third party observant:

Going around telling the writers (or really anyone) that they're obsessed about a character or anything like that (and then concluding that this is why we make the decisions that we do) is probably not going to be a very productive way of presenting your post.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 18 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .

[KawaiiKatie]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As a third party observant:

Going around telling the writers (or really anyone) that they're obsessed about a character or anything like that (and then concluding that this is why we make the decisions that we do) is probably not going to be a very productive way of presenting your post.

Agreed. I mean, look how well telling Mac Walters that he's "obessed" with Liara worked out!

[Emzamination]

FreshIstay wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

andocrack wrote...
DG says the decision to kill them isn't gone, but they are alive despite that choice.

This is indeed the case. If this is inconsistent with someone's expectations of what they believe that decision should result in, than so be it. I imagine that will happen, depending on where your personal expectations lie. If someone prefers to believe a character like Leliana is only alive because I'm personally "obsessed" with them... well, again. So be it. There is only so much room for us to maneuver-- we cannot make a customized story completely to order like a drive-thru burger joint could make a burger. We shall honor choices as best we can, to varying degrees of importance to the overall narrative. And I shall leave it at that.

Im not saying that you could make a whole game like a fast food joint could make a burger.

To me,

Game = Burger


The Option to kill a character = Choice of toppings

I dont think the game should be customized to my specific needs nor do I expect it to be.  I didnt even kill leliana or anyone really lol...but im defending the fact that the choice was there to be made, if the reasons for them still being alive have been explained in DA2 someone please tell me where, any reason is good enough for me Just as long as there is a reason. otherwise Im under the impression certain players killed certain companions and they showed up alive.

Mr. Gaider, If your obsessed with any character at all, it's Alistair, you've made that abundantly clear.
and thats fine you created the world, we are just the players man, we are gonna take whatever you give us...It's not like we have a choice.

You speak for yourself sir.Emzamination is no one's omega, I don't just lye down and take what's given to me like some dog.If I'm unsatisfied with an aspect of the game, be it story, combat, mechanics or graphics, I'm going to voice my opinion on the subject as is my right and dam any in my way claiming otherwise.

[AlexanderCousland]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

As a third party observant:

Going around telling the writers (or really anyone) that they're obsessed about a character or anything like that (and then concluding that this is why we make the decisions that we do) is probably not going to be a very productive way of presenting your post.

 

Am  I wrong in my conclusion that the companions  the DA Team deem most important to the overall plot of the story are the characters  that appear in game, comic, and book?

Mr. Gaider  has stated Alistair is his favorite character, maybe thats why he's in the comic as the King?

The character's mentioned here are one's that exist in the comics & books and also character's that were first introduced  in the Game. In the game their stories had various outcomes, which is why some people are upset that those outcomes are being presented as different from their game. What you have done is created an offical cannon as seen on Darkhorse.com's description of the dragon age comics.  So yes, you guys do have favorites and make desicions accordingly.

Is that conclusion wrong? or should we change the word obsessed to *favorited*.  seeing as how i do not want be counter-productive.