325 réponses à ce sujet

[Wozearly]

KENNY4753 wrote...

I want to bring up a point with Leliana.

You never actually see her die when you defile the ashes. You fight her and she falls down (supposedly dead) when you defeat her.

That doesn't mean that she is definetely dead. There is no cutscene where you chop of their head (Logahin) or where a character dies the way it is that happened to Meredith. We never actually see her die.

That being said, it doesn't throw out your choice. Your choice was not to kill Leliana, your choice was to defile the ashes and killing Leliana was one of the results of that choice. Your choice is still in the game (the ashes being gone)

When my nasty-piece-of-work Warden defiled the ashes, he struck off Leliana's head through the combat animation finisher.

That's not to say that there wasn't some way that the Guardian might have intervened. Crazy things were happening in the gauntlet, and its very possible that not everything was as entirely real as it seemed.

A DA:O import should be able to check if Leliana was dead (its able to comment on it in the ending sequence, so...). Obviously, the million dollar question is how to explain to the player the decision to retcon. Given that Hawke wouldn't know her, it probably would be through dialogue with the PC...but Bodahn could have been used...a codex entry from Leliana's journal...

To be honest, its not beyond the wit of man to work out a way to explain why a character thought to be dead isn't (or, better yet, parachute in an alternative placeholder if the cameo of that character is in some way important to the plot and can't be ignored entirely).

I completely understand David's point that the dev's will make decisions to use characters who might have been killed in a past playthrough, or completely rewrite the appearance and style of known characters (e.g. Flemeth). I have no problem with this...but to do it without dropping some form of (believable) explanation into the game isn't to be applauded.

[Terrorize69]

Not sure why some are complaining, if you killed Leliana and really dislike the fact she's alive again then.. Kill her once more in DA3, you should be pleased you can kill her twice.

People seem to believe life and death work the same way in DA as it does in real life, it does not. Flemeth anyone?

How about the location in which Leliana can die? A truely holy place in the eyes of the maker, perhaps it holds unique properties, or you know, the fact the ashes had godly healing powers..

You've been told it will be explained and if you actually took the time to think about it, you'll notice there are atleast a half adozen explanations you can find that will offer a satisfying explantion and an interesting plot twist.

[BigBad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Would you expect that people would be more or less interested in the updates if it was Diana Allers reporting (or anyone else)?

Emily Wong's entirely offscreen twitter death would probably have elicited less outrage if the game hadn't specifically included an (optional) embedded reporter on your ship that was given to a cheap fanservicey, badly acted stunt character. I don't really know of anyone who ran into Allers who didn't immediately wonder why this spot wasn't being filled by one of the -two- established reporter characters in the franchise. If Allers hadn't existed, or if she'd been a thousand percent less worthless as a character, I'm pretty sure Wong's death would barely have blipped on the fanrage-o-meter.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Best solution? Don't make characters who are important to later games killable. Though I doubt Bioware needs telling about that after all the feedback they got from people when they saw Lelianna alive. I do like how Bioware handled Fenris who could be given back to his master (whose name escapes me) and made into a slave again which is a good way to get rid of him and still allows him to return. The same applies to Anders in Awakening who could be given to the templars and obviously this means he could escape later on.

If Bioware give more characters potential fates like these then it allows a player to get rid of a companion and at the same time it means that that companion could later return if it's really needed.

[Apollo Starflare]

Thinking about Asunder, it does seem likely that it'll factor into DA3 (perhaps that's just the potentially false leak affecting my thinking?) And if so I do wonder about Shale and Wynne. Shale seems optional (although more Shale is always good), but Wynne is pretty important in all that and frankly given her condition in DAO I could see them using that to explain how she survives a potentially fatal encounter with the Warden.

Personally I'm not too fussed. I would find it jarring if Loghain came back from the dead or something, but somehow bringing back a character who was killed outside of a cutscene seems more acceptable to me for some reason.

(If I am forgetting some cut scene related Wynne death then whoops)

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ozida wrote...

And please, can we keep alive characters alive as well? You know, not to find out suddenly that one of the past key characters was killed... via Twitter?

We've never had a character death suddenly announced via Twitter.

We've had a twelve hour long 'stream' of an IC report from a minor NPC that ended in a heroic death, and was an excellent use of new media to tell a story.

The funny thing is that not only was it a great nod to one of the classic moments of a 'new media' doing storytelling (the War of the World's broadcast) but it's probably the most innovative thing that BioWare has ever done. I have never heard of anyone using Twitter in such a matter, and they managed to utterly nail it as a live event as well.

Yet somehow it sucks because Emily Wong didn't get a forgettable two-second cameo or e-mail to the Commander. Also 'Chobot sucks!!!111'

Well said. 

Allers is hardly my favourite character in the franchise, but Wong had a great send off. I was hooked to a narrative on Twitter of all things, kudos to all involved I say. 

[EricHVela]

Unfortunately, many characters that can die in a game become a cameo in sequel games (2nd DA, ME2/3), a dismissed death (such as Leliana's) or just simply ignored altogether for a standard starting canon (many other games). Few, if any, can be more than just cameos (Tali/Garrus/Queen), but even then, we discover that they must often have a stand-in for certain situations if they are not present in the sequel (Liara for a certain instance of Garrus, a couple of Quarians for certain replacements Tali and a mutation for the Queen).

EDIT: Grammar fail and the following:
Leliana's "dismissed death" isn't simply ignored. It supposedly will have an explanation, but it still dismisses the death in DA:O.

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 19 octobre 2012 - 02:55 .

[jackofalltrades456]

Yeah, but didn't they say the same thing about Anders death in Awakening? His return was much worse than Leliana's, imo and was never really explained in Dragon Age 2.

[EricHVela]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Yeah, but didn't they say the same thing about Anders death in Awakening? His return was much worse than Leliana's, imo and was never really explained in Dragon Age 2.

True dat.

Yet, it isn't a far leap given how a Justice spirit kept a corpse alive in the same expansion where Anders died.

We have a bigger issue of Leliana literally losing her head and still being alive than a Justice-infused body.

You're right still. It's another instance of dismissing a death that I should have mentioned.

[Emzamination]

FreshIstay wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

You speak for yourself sir.Emzamination is no one's omega, I don't just lye down and take what's given to me like some dog.If I'm unsatisfied with an aspect of the game, be it story, combat, mechanics or graphics, I'm going to voice my opinion on the subject as is my right and dam any in my way claiming otherwise.

 I see that one went way over your head.

You voice your opinion! YOU GO GIRL  I'll join you in voicing my own opinion, and we can have opinions galore.
and when DA3 comes out we will buy it & have more opinions and we can voice them together on BSN.

(we're still gonna take what they give us, and rather happily i might add)

Au, I apologize if I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:11 .

[Rawgrim]

Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

[David Gaider]

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:16 .

[Blacklash93]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Best solution? Don't make characters who are important to later games killable.

Essentially this. Obviously some people who don't like those characters will moan if they're not killable, but what can you do? If the player tries to kill them then let them escape or something. It's better than this.

I'd like the Leliana thing to be acknoledged somehow. Other handwaved revivals were so that I could at least move on from them, so I'd accept the Leliana's ressurection if it were explained here. Not that I want these instances to happen again, of course. They're more trouble than they're worth.

[Blacklash93]

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

Exactly how long did Origins' story take in terms of months? Awakening was 6 months after I believe. I think this supposition stems from people thinking Origins' story took around a year or so.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:26 .

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

oghren says he's been a surface dwarf for two years during the events of Awakening which would mean he'd of had to have been traveling with the warden a whole year then another year post-archdemon which would put us in awakening nearly 3 years after the blight.

Hawke was only in kirkwall a year before she met anders.

Modifié par Emzamination, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Foolsfolly]

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

I believe there's a reference inside DA:O that the game takes place roughly in a year. For the life of me I can't remember which dialogue reference it was. Awakening takes place six months after Origins. Lothering was overrun real early in the game. Hawke's trip to Kirkwall takes two weeks by boat, plus a handful of days wasting away in the Gallows, and then the year jump.

The supposition therefore states at the time Act 1 is underway Awakening is still taking place.

But time in movies, books, comics, and video games pass very very differently, ya know?

EDITED:

As the poster above me says there's also the trouble of Oghren and his kid. Which is a whole nother mess of time frame problems best to be glanced over.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:37 .

[mousestalker]

I think this is the best solution to the problem.

[robertthebard]

Blacklash93 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

Exactly how long did Origins' story take in terms of months? Awakening was 6 months after I believe. I think this supposition stems from people thinking Origins' story took around a year or so.

The Blight ends while Hawke is still working off the debt to get into Kirkwall.  How long into that year, I'm not sure, but it's over when the story picks back up in Kirkwall.  If it ended a month into that indentured servitude, then Anders being in Kirkwall is reasonable, as far as the timeline goes, anyway.  There's some wiggle room in there anyway.  I didn't particularly care for Anders, he seemed like Alistair 2.0 to me, but he didn't die, so there's no problem there for me.

The biggest problem is canon; since a character that's dead in one person's game may not be dead in another's.  This can be avoided, as suggested, by not allowing key characters to be killable.  However, this, to me, isn't such a big deal.  Despite the fact that I despise Alistair, and kill him when I get the chance, if the story required he be King, I could deal with it.  I got the satisfaction of knowing he died in my version of Thedas, even if somebody had other plans.  I have no control over divine intervention.

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

oghren says he's been a surface dwarf for two years during the events of Awakening which would mean he'd of had to have been traveling with the warden a whole year then another year post-archdemon which would put us in awakening nearly 3 years after the blight.

Hawke was only in kirkwall a year before she met anders.

The problem is, Marty, you're just not thinking fourth dimensionally!

[Emzamination]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

oghren says he's been a surface dwarf for two years during the events of Awakening which would mean he'd of had to have been traveling with the warden a whole year then another year post-archdemon which would put us in awakening nearly 3 years after the blight.

Hawke was only in kirkwall a year before she met anders.

The problem is, Marty, you're just not thinking fourth dimensionally!

Lol I haven't seen that movie in forever

[jackofalltrades456]

Ugh....

Trying to piece everything together just gives me a headache. I don't even think the writers even know whats going on with the storyline at this point. I'm starting to believe just writing everything that happens after Origins as just a massive "what-if" would be the best course of action..

[Foolsfolly]

robertthebard wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

Exactly how long did Origins' story take in terms of months? Awakening was 6 months after I believe. I think this supposition stems from people thinking Origins' story took around a year or so.

The Blight ends while Hawke is still working off the debt to get into Kirkwall.  How long into that year, I'm not sure, but it's over when the story picks back up in Kirkwall.  If it ended a month into that indentured servitude, then Anders being in Kirkwall is reasonable, as far as the timeline goes, anyway.  There's some wiggle room in there anyway.  I didn't particularly care for Anders, he seemed like Alistair 2.0 to me, but he didn't die, so there's no problem there for me.

The biggest problem is canon; since a character that's dead in one person's game may not be dead in another's.  This can be avoided, as suggested, by not allowing key characters to be killable.  However, this, to me, isn't such a big deal.  Despite the fact that I despise Alistair, and kill him when I get the chance, if the story required he be King, I could deal with it.  I got the satisfaction of knowing he died in my version of Thedas, even if somebody had other plans.  I have no control over divine intervention.

Killing Leliana means agreeing to Kolgrim and have the incredible lack of foresight required to bring Leliana when you plan to defile the ashes of fantasy Jesus Christ in front of the most devout member of your crew.

Anders can be given over to the Templars at the beginning and may die if you left him behind at Vigil's Keep and attempt to save Amaranthine. Both events have canon elements to them now thanks to DA2.

Why does BSN really hate Leliana? She's pretty, has a wonderful voice actress, and gives us a face for Dorothea's reign as Divine.

[LobselVith8]

Machines Are Us wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Incidentally, why do people treat "retcon" like a dirty word? Authors change their minds sometimes.

Most authors don't proclaim far and wide that the consumer can make choices that affect outcomes.

When a developer tells you that you can "shape the world" and that your decisions will change the story, it is not unreasonable to expect them to actually happen and matter.

If they didn't want Leliana dead, they could have easily made it so she didn't actually die, or seem to. She could have been trapped, or knocked out, or went missing.

If they have a vision for certain characters, and do not want them to die or certain events to affect them, they can easily make it so we can't kill them off, just like Liara in Mass Effect. They decided she needed to live, so they made it so she could not die.

The issue is basically giving us choices then ignoring them, or making the choices have the same outcome as those who made a different one.

Why bother giving us it in the first place? 

That's an excellent point. Dragon Age isn't Fallout or the Elder Scrolls; the developers promoted Dragon Age as a franchise where our choices would carry over into future games, and where our previous actions would matter in the future. We keep seeing our choices getting handwaved and rectonned, where outcomes, characters, and even the demise of certain characters are being re-written. It isn't simply Leliana's ressurection, it's the myraid of other choices, outcomes, and ressurections that illustrate that our choices are being ignored instead of being honored like the developers originally promised they would be.

[Emzamination]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Ugh....

Trying to piece everything together just gives me a headache. I don't even think the writers even know whats going on with the storyline at this point. I'm starting to believe just writing everything that happens after Origins as just a massive "what-if" would be the best course of action..

^ This

Even if they were to say awakening took place 6 10 months (Need time for oghren's kid to bake) after the blight, there is still the inconsistency in Da2 with witch hunt which is advertised to be 2 years after the blight, yet the warden is mentioned as having made it back to ferelden in year 7 of Da2 even if the... *thinks* "The hero of ferelden has returned from his mission" I wonder...

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
Anders is actually in Kirkwall at the same time when he is in Amaranthine too. So Hawke meets him before he dies at Vigil`s Keep...go figure.

I've seen this supposition before, and I'm uncertain how someone arrives at it. With a year's jump after Hawke arrives at Kirkwall, how is that the same time period of Awakening, exactly?

oghren says he's been a surface dwarf for two years during the events of Awakening which would mean he'd of had to have been traveling with the warden a whole year then another year post-archdemon which would put us in awakening nearly 3 years after the blight.

Hawke was only in kirkwall a year before she met anders.

The problem is, Marty, you're just not thinking fourth dimensionally!

Lol I haven't seen that movie in forever

Its still a great one. Honestly, in terms of continuity, overall story and moving the plot forward while referencing the original plot, its one of the best trilogies of all time. They should use it as a teaching reference in film schools (I am not in the least bit being sarcastic here).

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:53 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Emzamination wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

Ugh....

Trying to piece everything together just gives me a headache. I don't even think the writers even know whats going on with the storyline at this point. I'm starting to believe just writing everything that happens after Origins as just a massive "what-if" would be the best course of action..

^ This

Even if they were to say awakening took place 6 10 months (Need time for oghren's kid to bake) after the blight, there is still the inconsistency in Da2 with witch hunt which is advertised to be 2 years after the blight, yet the warden is mentioned as having made it back to ferelden in year 7 of Da2 even if the... *thinks* "The hero of ferelden has returned from his mission" I wonder...

I honestly have a feeling that the end fo DA3 is going to have a rather large reset button. An event that happens that will put all previous histories, lore, choices and possiblities into the realm of "completely irrelevant." Something like a world changing event, where entire kingdoms are toppled and up becomes down, day becomes night sort of deal. A way to wipe the slate clean and start fresh.