232 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

TheNexus wrote...

It's interesting. After my very first playthrough of ME3, the only thing I could think was "I died. I freaking died". That was my initial gut reaction.

I'm not even someone that believes every ending needs to be happy, but there was something very bitter about how I felt after finishing the game. It wasn't a good feeling, like when I finished ME1 and ME2. I just don't think it's what Bioware was going for... almost as if they had misguided their own intentions. At least I think that's one of the reasons they made the EC.

Not every ending  needs to be happy.  But forcing Shepard's death defeats the entire point of giving us choices.  Might as well have called it Red Dead Redemption in Space.

Modifié par iakus, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:59 .

[Jadebaby]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I would disagree with your assertion that the sacrifice "didn't arrive naturally through the story."  When Shepard decides to make that run to the beam, he knows that it's likely a one way trip.  Everything that happens after that is the "revelation," but Shepard has already in his mind made the hero's sacrifice.  He is willing to die to activate the Crucible.  The nature of the activation was a surprise to us, and maybe others like yourself would have liked a different version of the essential outcome (Shepard dies to activate Crucible, saves galaxy) I certainly don't begrudge you that because it's a matter of taste, but if you look at the narrative this essential outcome is inevitable.

Nope, Shepard was with squadmates and Anderson. Pretty much a comfort zone. It could be argued that it might not be a two-way trip after s/he gets blasted by Harbinger though. But even then I think people aren't thinking "o oh, i'm not coming back from this." They're thinking "what... the.. **** is going on?" Then that continues until the credits roll.

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I would disagree with your assertion that the sacrifice "didn't arrive naturally through the story."  When Shepard decides to make that run to the beam, he knows that it's likely a one way trip.  Everything that happens after that is the "revelation," but Shepard has already in his mind made the hero's sacrifice.  He is willing to die to activate the Crucible.  The nature of the activation was a surprise to us, and maybe others like yourself would have liked a different version of the essential outcome (Shepard dies to activate Crucible, saves galaxy) I certainly don't begrudge you that because it's a matter of taste, but if you look at the narrative this essential outcome is inevitable.

Nope, Shepard was with squadmates and Anderson. Pretty much a comfort zone. It could be argued that it might not be a two-way trip after s/he gets blasted by Harbinger though. But even then I think people aren't thinking "o oh, i'm not coming back from this." They're thinking "what... the.. **** is going on?" Then that continues until the credits roll.

Run to the beam: " YOU CAN FIGHT LIKE A KROGAN, RUN LIKE A LEOPARD BUT YOU'LL NEVER BE BETTER THAN Commander Shepard!"

Hit by Harby: "Shiz just got real."

Everything that followed:" Wait wut?"

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:53 .

[Biotic Sage]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I would disagree with your assertion that the sacrifice "didn't arrive naturally through the story."  When Shepard decides to make that run to the beam, he knows that it's likely a one way trip.  Everything that happens after that is the "revelation," but Shepard has already in his mind made the hero's sacrifice.  He is willing to die to activate the Crucible.  The nature of the activation was a surprise to us, and maybe others like yourself would have liked a different version of the essential outcome (Shepard dies to activate Crucible, saves galaxy) I certainly don't begrudge you that because it's a matter of taste, but if you look at the narrative this essential outcome is inevitable.

Nope, Shepard was with squadmates and Anderson. Pretty much a comfort zone. It could be argued that it might not be a two-way trip after s/he gets blasted by Harbinger though. But even then I think people aren't thinking "o oh, i'm not coming back from this." They're thinking "what... the.. **** is going on?" Then that continues until the credits roll.

I can only speak for myself, but I 100% thought "I am not coming back from this" after the lull in battle in London.  That whole part was goodbyes, character arc closures, and ominous music.  To me it was very established that Shepard was not coming back, whatever the climax may be.  But like I said, I can only speak for myself.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:50 .

[Iakus]

And here I was thinking "it's always darkest before the dawn" and "Earn Your Happy Ending" time.

Of course, Bioware was snickering behind the screen going "Lol, nope!"

Modifié par iakus, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:03 .

[Biotic Sage]

iakus wrote...

And here I was thinking "it's always darkest before the dawn" and "Earn Your Happy Ending" time.

Of course, Bioware was snickering behind the screen going "Lol, nope!"

Maybe what we're seeing here is what the player brings to the table.  You might be a much more optimistic person than I am haha.  Personally I thought I was being optimistic from a role-playing perspective for (within the diegesis) even expecting a victory at all, even with the ultimate sacrifice.  The Reapers seemed like they were spanking our asses pretty damned effectively, and nobody even knew if the Crucible would work, it was just a last desperate hope kind of thing.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:07 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Biotic Sage wrote...

iakus wrote...

And here I was thinking "it's always darkest before the dawn" and "Earn Your Happy Ending" time.

Of course, Bioware was snickering behind the screen going "Lol, nope!"

Maybe what we're seeing here is what the player brings to the table.  You might be a much more optimistic person than I am haha.  Personally I thought I was being optimistic from a role-playing perspective for (within the diegesis) even expecting a victory at all, even with the ultimate sacrifice.  The Reapers seemed like they were spanking our asses pretty damned effectively, and nobody even knew if the Crucible would work, it was just a last desperate hope kind of thing.

From memory I can't recall ever seeing a hero's tale that didn't end with a win, or rather with a total defeat.

Modifié par Humanoid_Typhoon, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:10 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...
From memory I can't recall ever seeing a hero's tale that didn't end with a win, or rather with a total defeat.

King Arthur was killed by his son Mordred.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:14 .

[Biotic Sage]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

iakus wrote...

And here I was thinking "it's always darkest before the dawn" and "Earn Your Happy Ending" time.

Of course, Bioware was snickering behind the screen going "Lol, nope!"

Maybe what we're seeing here is what the player brings to the table.  You might be a much more optimistic person than I am haha.  Personally I thought I was being optimistic from a role-playing perspective for (within the diegesis) even expecting a victory at all, even with the ultimate sacrifice.  The Reapers seemed like they were spanking our asses pretty damned effectively, and nobody even knew if the Crucible would work, it was just a last desperate hope kind of thing.

From memory I can't recall ever seeing a hero's tale that didn't end with a win, or rather with a total defeat.

Yeah but Shepard as a character doesn't know he's in a hero's tale.  That's why I said I was being optimistic as Shepard within the diegesis.  As for my omniscient player perspective that's a different story: I thought this was a hero's tale that was probably going to end bittersweet with a heroic sacrifice.  Like I said, a more optimistic person like iakus may have thought that it was a hero's tale that was going to end with ultimate victory against all odds.  We all agree we were experiencing a hero's tale, but the type of hero's tale is the disagreement.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:15 .

[Iakus]

Bioware has never Kobyashi Maru-ed the player character before. Ever. There was always a way out.

[Biotic Sage]

iakus wrote...

Bioware has never Kobyashi Maru-ed the player character before. Ever. There was always a way out.

I think Bioware wanted to get rid of that absolute.  Mass Effect was their baby, they wanted it to be more than just a game of wish-fulfillment and for it to succeed on a cinematic level that is rarely achieved by the medium.  I'm sure we will disagree on whether they succeeded and on whether Shepard's death was poetically necessary within the confines of the narrative, but I think they conveyed that goal through interviews and marketing.

[Iakus]

Biotic Sage wrote...

iakus wrote...

Bioware has never Kobyashi Maru-ed the player character before. Ever. There was always a way out.

I think Bioware wanted to get rid of that absolute.  Mass Effect was their baby, they wanted it to be more than just a game of wish-fulfillment and for it to succeed on a cinematic level that is rarely achieved by the medium.  I'm sure we will disagree on whether they succeeded and on whether Shepard's death was poetically necessary within the confines of the narrative, but I think they conveyed that goal through interviews and marketing.

If you force the player character's death in a narrative driven by choice, you have defeated the whole point.  The player deserves a say in the fate of the character they have been playing for dozens even hundreds of hours 

Modifié par iakus, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:24 .

[Biotic Sage]

iakus wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

iakus wrote...

Bioware has never Kobyashi Maru-ed the player character before. Ever. There was always a way out.

I think Bioware wanted to get rid of that absolute.  Mass Effect was their baby, they wanted it to be more than just a game of wish-fulfillment and for it to succeed on a cinematic level that is rarely achieved by the medium.  I'm sure we will disagree on whether they succeeded and on whether Shepard's death was poetically necessary within the confines of the narrative, but I think they conveyed that goal through interviews and marketing.

If you force the player character's death in a narrative driven by choice, you have defeated the whole point.  The player deserves a say in the fate of the character they have been playing for dozens even hundreds of hours 

Why single out death?  Bioware also "forced" us to be an Alliance Marine, a Cerberus operative, a hero, and a determined sacrificing individual.  The roleplaying was us choosing how to be those things, just like we got to choose how we made the ultimate heroic sacrifice. 

[Iakus]

Because forced sacrifice isn't. It's the ultimate in railroading. It's telling the player "your best will never be good enough". It's a big troll face to anyone who's Shepard had something to live for.

There's a term for this in the gaming community: Killer GMs. They're generally not well liked

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Biotic Sage wrote...

iakus wrote...

Bioware has never Kobyashi Maru-ed the player character before. Ever. There was always a way out.

I think Bioware wanted to get rid of that absolute.  Mass Effect was their baby, they wanted it to be more than just a game of wish-fulfillment and for it to succeed on a cinematic level that is rarely achieved by the medium.  I'm sure we will disagree on whether they succeeded and on whether Shepard's death was poetically necessary within the confines of the narrative, but I think they conveyed that goal through interviews and marketing.

I think the point we aren't driving in is that it wasn't the death that was the problem, it was the execution, the horribly contrived way he/she died was .

[Biotic Sage]

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:38 .

[Zan51]

Just seen this so dunno if anyone has said but "I Am Legend" ending of the 1954 novel, which I have read, is the execution of Neville as the last surviving human, realizing HE has become what the Vampires fear, just as humans feared the Vampires. There is no cure. He has to die so the new humans, who themselves have perfected a medicine to stop them drinking blood, can live on. In other words, he became the feared killer of their kind, what he hated about them, that was the twist. Not the modern Holywood version. The Will Smith version was based on the Charlston Heston movie called "Omega Man" in 1971 which saw Neville sacrifice himself for a phial of blood to fight the disease.

To be honest, I think the novel, with Neville becoming what he hated, is more like the Control and Synthesis endings than anything!

[Iakus]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

It's worse than that for me.  It wrecked the entire trilogy for me  Everything Shepard does leads inevitably to this unavoidable moment.  It's all so futile and pointless.  

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

that's the thing though, it wasn't being forced into sacrifice it was being forced onto the catalyst game show where we pick one of three doors to decide the fate of the galaxy.

[Biotic Sage]

iakus wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

It's worse than that for me.  It wrecked the entire trilogy for me  Everything Shepard does leads inevitably to this unavoidable moment.  It's all so futile and pointless.  

OK, so the entire trilogy wasn't your cup of tea.  You don't like it.  I don't like the Twilight saga, although I never did.  I don't like the Matrix saga.  I liked the first one a lot, the other two were awful.  I pretend like they don't exist and I don't watch them.  By the same token, you don't have to play ME3 anymore.  You can play and watch things that you do like, and try new things and decide whether or not you will continue to play or watch them.  It's not the end of the world, Battlestar Galactica was my favorite show until the end, now it's not even in my top 5.  I focus my attentions on to works that earn my attention.  That being said, while the ending of BSG does undermine the overall integrity of the show for me, it doesn't destroy the accomplishments of the first seasons on their own.  I can still appreciate what they did there and recognize the greatness.  If they were making more BSG, I would hope they would focus more on what made those great and less on the ending stuff.  Just like I'll bet you are hoping that when they make more Mass Effect they focus on the stuff you liked about it and not the ending stuff.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:54 .

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

I need to go to bed, I thank you for the civil discussion without any labeling or name calling Bio Sage.

[Biotic Sage]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

that's the thing though, it wasn't being forced into sacrifice it was being forced onto the catalyst game show where we pick one of three doors to decide the fate of the galaxy.

Look man, you are never going to convince me that this is any different than being "forced" into picking one or three arbitrary backgrounds for Shepard at the very beginning of the trilogy, or being "forced" into going to deal with the genophage first instead of dealing with the Quarians/Geth first.  All of these are authorial choices by Bioware.  The only reason that the "Catalyst game show" (as you put it) is different in your mind is because you don't like it.  The other "forced" scenarios you happen to like or are indifferent about. 

And the reason I use "forced" in quotes here is because no one is putting a gun to our heads and saying "play this game and like it."  We don't have to play the games at all, and we certainly don't have to approve of the game if we do play it.

[Biotic Sage]

Humanoid_Typhoon wrote...

I need to go to bed, I thank you for the civil discussion without any labeling or name calling Bio Sage.

I'm happy to discuss.  Maybe we will continue at a future date.

[Iakus]

You're treading awfully close to "I'm happy so STFU"

[Mr.House]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I don't know what to tell ya. Some people draw the line at being "railroaded into joining Cerberus," others draw the line at being "railroaded into caring about the fate of the galaxy at all." You, iakus, draw the line at being "railroaded into making a sacrifice with the player character's life." I don't happen to draw the line at any of those places, even the last one, so we will agree to disagree. It wasn't your cup of tea.

DAO did a mucxh better job then ME3, by far. You had many choices on how to end the blight, you did not fel like biggest choice in the game was taken away from you nor forced.

Modifié par Mr.House, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:53 .